How did blood clotting evolve?

Late_Cretaceous · May 20, 2005

I think ChrisS is correct when he says God created blood clotting. It just happened to take place over millions of years through a purely naturalistic process.

I am growing a garden. Does that mean that I physically have to stretch each plant a little bit every day, or do I just sow the seeds and let the inevitable happen?

Ninja Turtles · May 21, 2005

The problem is that what many creationists don't realize and willfully ignore is that evolution does not explain origin of how life was created, it describes the mechanism that drives the changes in species. The idea of God has no basis in science as it isn't a falsifiable element and it can't be experimented on. As a result, it has no basis in any discussion of evolutionary science as it relates to blood clotting.

The problem of course is that people assume Evolution = Atheism, which is just plain stupid. Evolution != Atheism, and you can't include something that is immeasurable in a field that is based on measurements thus saying that the immeasurable plays a factor can't fly.

Linux98 · May 21, 2005

Late_Cretaceous said:
I think ChrisS is correct when he says God created blood clotting. It just happened to take place over millions of years through a purely naturalistic process.

I am growing a garden. Does that mean that I physically have to stretch each plant a little bit every day, or do I just sow the seeds and let the inevitable happen?

I think ChrisS is correct as well. It is far to much to ask random mutation and natural selection to create the sixteen step process of blood clotting, Especially when you go looking for the common ancestor who would have had to develop blood clotting in the first place. You pretty much have to enter the WayBack machine on that one.

JohnR7 · May 21, 2005

Late_Cretaceous said:
I am growing a garden. Does that mean that I physically have to stretch each plant a little bit every day, or do I just sow the seeds and let the inevitable happen?

The seed just grows, there is no natural selection involved in that. There is a increase and what appears to be a explosion though. Because cells continue to double. So you start off with two cells, then four, eight, sixteen, 32, 64. 128 and so forth. It takes the same amount of time for a plant to double in size at two cells as it takes to double in size with hundreds of cells. That is why if you look at a time lapse video of a plant growing, they start off real slow and seem to explode toward the end.

Edx · May 21, 2005

FaithfulServant said:
How did the process of blood clotting evolve?

I dont know, but are you the girl in the picture? Whoooo!!

Ed

Edx · May 21, 2005

ChrisS said:
How again is this a counter to argument that God created humanity ? I don't see how that contradicts what the Bible preaches. And as for not everything being perfect, well, the Bible explains that.

Because Chris, its not supposed to.

Ed

AnimateDream · May 21, 2005

ChrisS said:
You see, here's the thing. You assume that evolution is true, and because of that you assume that this had to of evolved. However, you have no evidence directly showing that this evolved. Saying that God created it holds just as much merit as saying that it evolved.

Is it not me or did Frumious Bandersnatch not just post links describing exactly how the blood clotting process evolved?

Hydra009 · May 21, 2005

AnimateDream said:
Is it not me or did Frumious Bandersnatch not just post links describing exactly how the blood clotting process evolved?

It happened, but the creationist blinders are pretty effective.

AnimateDream · May 21, 2005

Frumious Bandersnatch said:
The proteases in the clotting cascade are closly related and probably evolved from digestive enzymes by gene duplication.
Ken Miller has addressed this here
FB

I believe this question was already addressed on the first page. I can't quote the link apparently because I don't have enough posts.

p.s. didn't mean to double post either.

Late_Cretaceous · May 21, 2005

I think that the answer of "how blood clotting evovled" has been answered. For anyone who cares to follow the link (or do a google search, or go to the library) a step by step process of how this occured is all there laid out for you.

kingreaper · May 21, 2005

JohnR7 said:
The seed just grows, there is no natural selection involved in that. There is a increase and what appears to be a explosion though. Because cells continue to double. So you start off with two cells, then four, eight, sixteen, 32, 64. 128 and so forth. It takes the same amount of time for a plant to double in size at two cells as it takes to double in size with hundreds of cells. That is why if you look at a time lapse video of a plant growing, they start off real slow and seem to explode toward the end.

Not only is this a bad attempt at a metaphor, it's also wrong

Plants, like people, don't double in swize every hour for their whole life, and double faster than that right at the start

ChrisS · May 21, 2005

Late_Cretaceous said:
I think that the answer of "how blood clotting evovled" has been answered. For anyone who cares to follow the link (or do a google search, or go to the library) a step by step process of how this occured is all there laid out for you.

If it did occur, the link simply shows what if's. No facts, just an explanation assuming that evolution created blood clotting. You've got your conclusion, so now you made evidence to support it.

ChrisS · May 21, 2005

AnimateDream said:
Is it not me or did Frumious Bandersnatch not just post links describing exactly how the blood clotting process evolved?

And what I was saying is that the link didn't show any evidence supporting the idea that blood clotting evolved due to evolution.

Lord Emsworth · May 21, 2005

ChrisS said:
You see, here's the thing. You assume that evolution is true, and because of that you assume that this had to of evolved. However, you have no evidence directly showing that this evolved. Saying that God created it holds just as much merit as saying that it evolved.

Regardless of whether what you write is correct or not you might want to reread the question in the OP.

"How did the process of blood clotting evolve?"

RoboMastodon · May 21, 2005

ChrisS said:
And what I was saying is that the link didn't show any evidence supporting the idea that blood clotting evolved due to evolution.

Unlike you, the scientific community has known that evolution occurs for a long time now. So now that we know evolution did occur and that it has been able to explain a vast majority of organisms and their organ structure, it is not unreasonable to deduce in the investigations of the ones that we don't know that evolution explains them also. We don't have to demonstrate evolution occurs in every single paper about the evolutionary history of an organism or a biological structure, considering the scientists are already familiar it. This is the way science works: once something has been established as fact, it can be used to further investigate any other related areas until something comes along to tell us otherwise.

ChrisS · May 21, 2005

RoboMastodon said:
Unlike you, the scientific community has known that evolution occurs for a long time now. So now that we know evolution did occur and that it has been able to explain a vast majority of organisms and their organ structure, it is not unreasonable to deduce in the investigations of the ones that we don't know that evolution explains them also. We don't have to demonstrate evolution occurs in every single paper about the evolutionary history of an organism or a biological structure, considering the scientists are already familiar it. This is the way science works: once something has been established as fact, it can be used to further investigate any other related areas until something comes along to tell us otherwise.

I know evolution occurs, however, why would it need to occur in order for the first organisms, trees, dogs, Adam and such, to have blood clotting. Our biblical explanation is that God created life, with the blood clotting system, and later, after the fall, it became un perfect. What evidence do we have that evolution even occured in the beggining of life? It could have started years afterwards after the fall.

Hermit · May 21, 2005

ChrisS said:
I know evolution occurs, however, why would it need to occur in order for the first organisms, trees, dogs, Adam and such, to have blood clotting. Our biblical explanation is that God created life, with the blood clotting system, and later, after the fall, it became un perfect. What evidence do we have that evolution even occured in the beggining of life? It could have started years afterwards after the fall.

What's the evidence for "the fall" again?

ChrisS · May 21, 2005

Hermit said:
What's the evidence for "the fall" again?

Everything that isn't perfect, well.. everything.

FaithfulServant · May 21, 2005

Okay ladies and gentlemen - let's not get off topic arguing about whether evolution created the universe or not

Back to blood clotting...

I am familiar with Professor Doolittle's work - he thinks that it happened by random duplication and recombination of gene pieces.

Ignoring the amount of luck that it would take to get the gene pieces in the right places, I am mostly curious how a protein made from a duplicated gene would immediately have the necessary and sophisticated new properties?

If I am right, duplication means copy - so a duplicated gene is simply a copy of the old gene? So where did the new function come from in the production of prothrombin, plasminogen, proaccelerin, etc?

Steffani

Hermit · May 21, 2005

ChrisS said:
Everything that isn't perfect, well.. everything.

How does the conclusion of a former perfect state of affairs and a later fall follow from the observation that things aren't perfect today? (Nevermind that you didn't even give a precise definition to "perfection".)

How did blood clotting evolve?

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