How daughters are raised

[DZoolander]

Given the types of discussions that go on in here, I always kinda wonder how other people raise their daughters...what types of things they want from them...what messages they give them about their place and role in this world...what they envision for them in the future, etc.

It's of particular interest to me because I have a daughter - and she's 3/almost 4. I worry about her future. I realize that the basic foundation of a person's psychology is set by a pretty young age. I also believe that one incident begets another, which then sets the framework for the next, etc...so everything has a cumulative effect. Life is kinda linear in that respect.

What I do know is how I want her to end up. It might be kinda corny - but that scene in Frozen with Elsa singing "Let it Go" speaks to me about the type of moment I want my daughter to undergo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk

...especially the part about "No right, no wrong, no rules for me, I'm free." That's what I want for her.

Now, that might sound weird, but it fits into how I want her to be. I want her to be an independent moral agent. I want her to do the "right things" - not because they're rules or because she's afraid of being spanked by some cosmic father figure - but rather because I've raised her well enough to feel that these things are right or wrong from within. Not because someone told her so.

I want her to cast aside fears about disappointing people - including myself. I actually look forward, admittedly in a bittersweet manner, where she challenges me and asserts her independence. I'm part of that construct that she needs to eventually move away from (at least in my eyes). My job, as a parent, is to do a good enough job before that time that she has the proper compass to navigate through that period properly.

Like in that video - there's such joy that comes in those first moments of becoming your independent, self-willed, self...and I almost cherish that moment for her ahead of time...and it makes me grin.

At least that's how I see it.

Thoughts?

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Let it go is a something I am split on as to how it may cause young girls (or boys) to think. True, its good to not worry about what others think, to be yourself...etc. But at the same time as christians we don't want them to think they can do whatever they want because God still has rules. You could also see the song as something saying "Forget about biblical teachings, do what you want!".

 

[KWCrazy]

You could replace "no right no wrong" with the old 60's mantra of "if it feels good do it." On the "bright side" it will probably give you the opportunity to become a grandfather before she's 16. On the down side, there are rules which govern behavior and consequences to every action. Ignoring the rules sometimes works for a while, but if you actually watch the movie it didn't actually work so well for Elsa, who was nearly beheaded because of her actions.

 

[RDKirk]

Now, that might sound weird, but it fits into how I want her to be. I want her to be an independent moral agent. I want her to do the "right things" - not because they're rules or because she's afraid of being spanked by some cosmic father figure - but rather because I've raised her well enough to feel that these things are right or wrong from within. Not because someone told her so.

There are still "rules." Do you think an Olympic athlete doesn't have "rules?" Even if you choose your own destination, you have to establish the rules you need to follow to get there. For an Olympian, "right" is behavior that will lead to the gold medal; "wrong" is behavior that does not lead to the gold medal. Is it "wrong" to eat a McDonald's Big Mac? The question the Olympian asks is: Will that Big Mac help me run faster? No? Then it's "wrong" to eat it.

Here is the basics of ethics that most people don't realize: Ethical behavior is setting a goal. This is called variously "having lived a well-lived life" or "eudomania." It's a concept that you die with no debts, no regrets, and everyone is sorry to see you go.

There are various ethical philosophies on what that goal specifically looks like and what metrics tell you you're going in the correct direction, but the basis of ethics is that a "right act" is one that takes you to that goal; a "wrong act" is one that takes you away from that goal.

Therefore, there is always "right" and "wrong" for an ethical person, just as there is "right" and "wrong" for an athelete.

Here is a case in point for our own daughter: I remember when she was about your daughter's age, a casual family friend upon meeting her chided, "Do you have a boyfriend? Whose your little boyfriend?"

We cut the woman off: Don't get her started at age four with the idea that she ought to have a boyfriend.

You see, there is a whole world out there eager to teach your daughter "rules" that you may not even realize. Today it's a "rule" that young girls should be sexually engaged even before starting school.

There is a "rule" that she should be dressed a certain way, act a certain way, eat certain foods. You have to determine if you want her to follow those rules, and if not, then you still need to establish alternate rules.

"Raising" is rule-making. Your rule may be, "Whatever to social flow is, we're not going that way." If your goal is to have a daughter who is an independent moral agent, you have to realize there is a whole world of influences already working to make her otherwise.

 

[razzelflabben]

Kids need rules, it's child psychology 101 that part of your post concerned me, but I'm not totally sure you meant it the way it came across to me. We all need rules, we take comfort in knowing where to draw the lines. Scripture says that God has written His law on our hearts. I'm guessing this is what you want for your daughter, a "law" that is written on the heart, comes from the heart, is brought about by the convictions to obey that law and in that, we find comfort, strength, courage.

Our second son, once made a picture from all the stuff he could find in the art box. One picture was especially curious to me, because he said it represented me. On that picture was a small, play compass. Now anyone who knows anything about me knows that I get lost really easy, they tease me about getting lost going out the drive. So I assumed he was teasing me. What he said, confused me, pierced me, and otherwise startled me. He said that the compass was on my picture because I always know where we are going....wow, I don't have a clue where we are going, but he looked to me for the direction in his life, a direction about who to be and how to be that person.

My husband and I strive to give all our children 4 boys and 1 girl, that direction. An example to live by, a compass so to speak so that when they lose their way as we all do from time to time, we at least know who to turn to for answers. Where to look for answers. How to find the answers we need. We try to give our children a compass (hopefully God) so that when they make their own decisions, they know which way to turn. But let me clarify one point. WE don't want our children to learn our way, but the way their compass points. Parents help to set our compass to North so to speak, hopefully we do that by pointing them to God. They use that compass to go where they go, I don't want anyone to get confused. I'm not saying we are their compass, but rather that it is our job to make sure their compass is functioning like it should.

 

[DZoolander]

There are rules - of course - but what I'd *like* to accomplish is creating an environment where she's not simply a vacuous fearful rule follower - but rather does the right thing because that's what she *wants* to do. If your moral compass is properly aligned - you're not doing the right thing because you're following rules - you're doing the right thing because that's what you want to do and it flows naturally from you.

For example - in another discussion in here - we were discussing whether or not someone who has sex with a married person is guilty of "cheating". I suppose from a very strict standpoint - you could say "no" - because they are not the one who took the vow.

At the same time, however, if you are so self interested that you behave with depraved indifference toward the suffering of another, IMHO you're a scumbag. You should *want* to take into consideration how other people feel - and let that type of moral imperative be your guiding light.

I always get caught up when people talk about "well, what if they just do what they want?" Well - why should what you "want" to do be the wrong thing? Isn't the goal to make people "want" to do what's righteous because it comes from within?

In that sense - if approached in that manner - there are no "rules" except for "do what's right" - which in another way can be expressed as "do no harm out of selfish self-interest" (perhaps crudely put - but I'm at work and don't have time to be incredibly precise in my language...)

It's kind of like... I'm the kind of person that if I'm sitting at a red light at 2am and there's no other traffic on the road, I'll just go. Traffic lights are there to regulate traffic - and that requires there be more than one person on the road. IMHO any person who sits there for 5 minutes staring at a red light, simply because it's red, when there's n'er another soul on the road...that person is a moron. There's a lot of that in society - and it's too oft praised IMHO.

Maybe a silly example - but that's the kind of thing I'm thinking about.

Of course there are "rules" - but I'd say the more meaningful ones are ones that are more distant/vague/all encompassing that deal with understanding how to see things in an overall un-selfish way - so that you're a benefit to those around you.

 

[DZoolander]

You could replace "no right no wrong" with the old 60's mantra of "if it feels good do it." On the "bright side" it will probably give you the opportunity to become a grandfather before she's 16. On the down side, there are rules which govern behavior and consequences to every action. Ignoring the rules sometimes works for a while, but if you actually watch the movie it didn't actually work so well for Elsa, who was nearly beheaded because of her actions.

Actually, in the movie, any risk she faced was as a consequence of the emotional castration created by trying to follow "rules" that were imposed upon her by others... Rules that conflicted with her God given nature, with little rhyme or reason behind them apart from fear.

 

[razzelflabben]

There are rules - of course - but what I'd *like* to accomplish is creating an environment where she's not simply a vacuous fearful rule follower - but rather does the right thing because that's what she *wants* to do. If your moral compass is properly aligned - you're not doing the right thing because you're following rules - you're doing the right thing because that's what you want to do and it flows naturally from you.

For example - in another discussion in here - we were discussing whether or not someone who has sex with a married person is guilty of "cheating". I suppose from a very strict standpoint - you could say "no" - because they are not the one who took the vow.

At the same time, however, if you are so self interested that you behave with depraved indifference toward the suffering of another, IMHO you're a scumbag. You should *want* to take into consideration how other people feel - and let that type of moral imperative be your guiding light.

I always get caught up when people talk about "well, what if they just do what they want?" Well - why should what you "want" to do be the wrong thing? Isn't the goal to make people "want" to do what's righteous because it comes from within?

In that sense - if approached in that manner - there are no "rules" except for "do what's right" - which in another way can be expressed as "do no harm out of selfish self-interest" (perhaps crudely put - but I'm at work and don't have time to be incredibly precise in my language...)

It's kind of like... I'm the kind of person that if I'm sitting at a red light at 2am and there's no other traffic on the road, I'll just go. Traffic lights are there to regulate traffic - and that requires there be more than one person on the road. IMHO any person who sits there for 5 minutes staring at a red light, simply because it's red, when there's n'er another soul on the road...that person is a moron. There's a lot of that in society - and it's too oft praised IMHO.

If there is a red light camera and I want to avoid a ticket, I would sit there and wait for the light. Just saying....

Maybe a silly example - but that's the kind of thing I'm thinking about.

Of course there are "rules" - but I'd say the more meaningful ones are ones that are more distant/vague/all encompassing that deal with understanding how to see things in an overall un-selfish way - so that you're a benefit to those around you.

I think we are kind of saying the same thing. A law written on the heart is something that comes from within you. It isn't there because of fear, but because it is who you are, what you believe, what compels you. That is the law scripture talks about being on our hearts. It is the compass by which we make our choices. But it doesn't just happen, it is put there....who puts it there is another story all together.

 

[DZoolander]

If there is a red light camera and I want to avoid a ticket, I would sit there and wait for the light. Just saying...

I actually got pulled over once for that - and talked myself out of the ticket. I basically said "If you want to give me a ticket so I can contribute to the city's coffers, cool enough. But, sitting at a red light for 5 minutes with no-one else on the road is just stupid."

and he let me go. lol

And that does kinda illustrate what I'm talking about. Following a "rule" that has no rhyme or reason behind it, for no other reason than fear.

 

[RDKirk]

I actually got pulled over once for that - and talked myself out of the ticket. I basically said "If you want to give me a ticket so I can contribute to the city's coffers, cool enough. But, sitting at a red light for 5 minutes with no-one else on the road is just stupid."

and he let me go. lol

And that does kinda illustrate what I'm talking about. Following a "rule" that has no rhyme or reason behind it, for no other reason than fear.

Were I am, the camera merely takes a picture of you running the red light and you get a ticket in the mail. You can choose to go to court and explain to the judge why you shouldn't have to obey the law at 2:00 am, then let him find you guilty and order you to pay an exorbitant fine and have the conviction noted by your insurance, or you can go to the state's website and enter your bank card number for $75 without your insurance company being informed.

 

[DZoolander]

Were I am, the camera merely takes a picture of you running the red light and you get a ticket in the mail. You can choose to go to court and explain to the judge why you shouldn't have to obey the law at 2:00 am, then let him find you guilty and order you to pay an exorbitant fine and have the conviction noted by your insurance, or you can go to the state's website and enter your bank card number for $75 without your insurance company being informed.

Such are the trials and tribulations of leading a moral life

lol

 

[RDKirk]

I actually got pulled over once for that - and talked myself out of the ticket. I basically said "If you want to give me a ticket so I can contribute to the city's coffers, cool enough. But, sitting at a red light for 5 minutes with no-one else on the road is just stupid."

and he let me go. lol

And that does kinda illustrate what I'm talking about. Following a "rule" that has no rhyme or reason behind it, for no other reason than fear.

Or you might not know the reason. And sometimes the reason is reasonably concerned by the "lowest common denominator."

You might well be wise enough to properly determine there is no traffic so it's safe to proceed, but not everyone is as wise as you are. There was probably a time in your own life that you were not as wise as you are today.

 

[razzelflabben]

I actually got pulled over once for that - and talked myself out of the ticket. I basically said "If you want to give me a ticket so I can contribute to the city's coffers, cool enough. But, sitting at a red light for 5 minutes with no-one else on the road is just stupid."

and he let me go. lol

And that does kinda illustrate what I'm talking about. Following a "rule" that has no rhyme or reason behind it, for no other reason than fear.

WE loaned the boys our car once, they didn't need to use the car, so it sat the week in their apartment parking lot where all the cars park, yet we got a ticket for "blocking" a drive a few blocks away and when we tried to make our case, we were told to either pay the ticket or pay court costs. I don't have that kind of money....our son, in that same town, got a red light ticket for turning right on red 1 minute before the time permitted....same town, years previous, tried to sight our car for being in an accident in a parking lot while our car was over an hours drive away, sitting in front of our house. I did manage to get out of that one, but it took a lot of talking and maneuvering to convince them the car had been in a different town at the time of the incident....my point, it doesn't always work the way yours did. I don't think that makes what you are saying right or wrong, only that sometimes we don't have all the evidence and shouldn't make judgments without all of it. But then again, that is off topic and I kind of liked your analogy, we practise something similar out here in the country where it isn't so likely we will get a ticket.

 

[DZoolander]

...and that kind of gets to what I'm talking about...which is that those really aren't issues of "right" and "wrong" - yet many times people treat other issues that arguably are the same way as if they are matters of ethics.

I'm of the belief that there are actually very few truly ethical principles in life. There are of course millions of different variations on how scenarios can play out - but the guiding moral principles by which you judge those scenarios are actually very few. Going back to the discussion about whether one is guilty of cheating if they have sex with a married person - trying to pick apart the meaning of the word "cheating" in the context of relationships/whether or not they're in one/etc is all kind of moot. One ought not to act in callous disregard of how others feel out of selfish self-interest. It's as simple as that.

...and that same principle/maxim can be applied to MANY other scenarios as well.

Every person, even Forrest Gump, can see how situations are different. What takes insight, I think, is to see how things are all the same. I believe that applies to most things - including morality. If you can instill a basic moral principle and ingrain it into the child - then everything should flow from it (kind of like what you're saying about it being written in our hearts). That's my goal. If that's accomplished - there aren't "rules". There's no worry about "right or wrong" as defined by others. There's simply your natural state of being - which is to do the right thing for the right reasons.

That's my goal. Of course she has no grasp of it and needs construct now - but it's my hope to have her progress beyond those simplistic cages of action when the time comes and recognize them for what they were. Do I expect there will be errors along the way? mis-steps on her part? Sure. That's part of learning.

 

[razzelflabben]

...and that kind of gets to what I'm talking about...which is that those really aren't issues of "right" and "wrong" - yet many times people treat other issues that arguably are the same way as if they are matters of ethics.

I'm of the belief that there are actually very few truly ethical principles in life. There are of course millions of different variations on how scenarios can play out - but the guiding moral principles by which you judge those scenarios are actually very few. Going back to the discussion about whether one is guilty of cheating if they have sex with a married person - trying to pick apart the meaning of the word "cheating" in the context of relationships/whether or not they're in one/etc is all kind of moot. One ought not to act in callous disregard of how others feel out of selfish self-interest. It's as simple as that.

...and that same principle/maxim can be applied to MANY other scenarios as well.

Every person, even Forrest Gump, can see how situations are different. What takes insight, I think, is to see how things are all the same. I believe that applies to most things - including morality. If you can instill a basic moral principle and ingrain it into the child - then everything should flow from it (kind of like what you're saying about it being written in our hearts). That's my goal. If that's accomplished - there aren't "rules". There's no worry about "right or wrong" as defined by others. There's simply your natural state of being - which is to do the right thing for the right reasons.

That's my goal. Of course she has no grasp of it and needs construct now - but it's my hope to have her progress beyond those simplistic cages of action when the time comes and recognize them for what they were. Do I expect there will be errors along the way? mis-steps on her part? Sure. That's part of learning.

The best way we have found to accomplish that as per the OP discussion, is through living it out. That is what our son saw when he put a compass on the page. He saw me as the compass by which he could set his directions, his compass, a measure or standard by which he wanted to live. It is a principal straight out of scripture btw...just saying...

 

[mkgal1]

Our daughter went to a private Christian school from kindergarten up until fourth grade, and I was grateful for one process they used---the "appeal to authority". Any time they (the children) thought something was unjust, they were able to ask for the chance to plead their case. Even in kindergarten, they were taught how to support their beliefs. We carried that into our home, and I have to admit, she made some great points (and changed my mind on a lot of things).

 

[DZoolander]

Very nice.

Yeah - we're attempting to institute something like that with our daughter (keep in mind she's 3.5) - and some of her reasoning is pretty funny to listen to. A lot of it gets rejected summarily (lol) - but it's nice to see her working out her reasoning skills and ability to argue her case.

 

[razzelflabben]

Very nice.

Yeah - we're attempting to institute something like that with our daughter (keep in mind she's 3.5) - and some of her reasoning is pretty funny to listen to. A lot of it gets rejected summarily (lol) - but it's nice to see her working out her reasoning skills and ability to argue her case.

be careful it doesn't backfire. We tried this with our kids, it doesn't always work, in fact, our youngest spent an entire year of school arguing that he didn't have to learn to read because he didn't want to be a teacher. No amount of correction got through to him until he had lost an entire year of school. Might be an extreme, but worthy of the caution none the less.

 

[DZoolander]

One thing our daughter seems to have in her head is that "if I say please, it means I can do it". She'll ask me if she can do something, I'll tell her no, she'll say "please", I'll say "no"...then it's 10 minutes of her reminding me that she said "please". lol

 

[razzelflabben]

One thing our daughter seems to have in her head is that "if I say please, it means I can do it". She'll ask me if she can do something, I'll tell her no, she'll say "please", I'll say "no"...then it's 10 minutes of her reminding me that she said "please". lol

love it! cherish every minute, they don't stay little forever.