How could Jesus dying be considered a sacrifice?

[atheist88]

Well, stating that there isn't any, is also equaly pointless then since it's merely only a possibility and not acutal beyond a doubt fact.

So you will concede that there is possible evidence that an invisible pink unicorn created the universe, we just aren't aware of it?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

So you will concede that there is possible evidence that an invisible pink unicorn created the universe, we just aren't aware of it?

No, because God has said otherwise.

 

[atheist88]

Actually no. The consequence of sin is death, it's that simple. It was like that for satan and demons and for us too, but we choose that death, God doesn't make us. Plus, the reason He wants us to obey Him is for our own good to begin w/.

Yes you have. If you don't choose life, you choose death.

Well, the thing is you have.

No, it was for SATAN and DEMONS, but man choose sin and thus got the same consequence of rebellion that satan and demons got since God doesn't show partiality.

The consequence of not leaving a bag of oats on the table for the invisible pink unicorn on New Year's Eve is death. It was like that for noah and his family for not inviting him onto the ark. If you don't leave out a bag of oats, you are choosing that death. The IPU (invisible pink unicorn) doesn't make us. It's really for your own good to feed the IPU.

Let me state for the record right now. I do not choose hell. There, I have made my choice. If god doesn't force people into hell, then I'm good. Whenever he says "procede directly to hell" for not believing in me I'll just say no.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

The consequence of not leaving a bag of oats on the table for the invisible pink unicorn on New Year's Eve is death. It was like that for noah and his family for not inviting him onto the ark. If you don't leave out a bag of oats, you are choosing that death. The IPU (invisible pink unicorn) doesn't make us. It's really for your own good to feed the IPU.

Let me state for the record right now. I do not choose hell. There, I have made my choice. If god doesn't force people into hell, then I'm good. Whenever he says "procede directly to hell" for not believing in me I'll just say no.

There are two roads, life and death. God doesn't make you choose one over the other, but if you choose one you aren't choosing the other and if you reject one you are choosing the other. That's how it works, you pick your path.

 

[atheist88]

No, because God has said otherwise.

Ahh, but the IPU says otherwise about evidence for god.

You can't use reasoning like that because it can always be turned back on you. It is a pretty common type of fallacy called special pleading.
http://http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/special-pleading.html

This applies to your post above too. I can turn that around to say the IPU provides you with just 2 paths, bag of oats, no bag of oats, first gets heaven, second gets hell.

 

[corvus_corax]

Well, stating that there isn't any, is also equaly pointless then since it's merely only a possibility and not acutal beyond a doubt fact.

I'll grant you that
So, let us move beyond the pointlessness of talking about whether or not there might or might not be actual objective empirical evidence, shall we?

Provide or demonstrate said evidence. As a theist myself, I would love to see such. If said evidence cannot be demonstrated, then the entire conversation of whether or not evidence might or might not exist serves no point at all.

 

[atheist88]

Ahh, but the IPU says otherwise about evidence for god.

You can't use reasoning like that because it can always be turned back on you. It is a pretty common type of fallacy called special pleading.
http://http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/special-pleading.html

This applies to your post above too. I can turn that around to say the IPU provides you with just 2 paths, bag of oats, no bag of oats, first gets heaven, second gets hell.

What I'm getting at is that there is no reason to believe anything you say about the rules that god has set up. Just like there is no reason to believe my IPU examples. But they are equivalent. Both are hearsay.

You are ignoring my examples most likely because you think them silly and you certainly don't believe them. But why? Why don' t you believe me when I say that the IPU wants to save you?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Ahh, but the IPU says otherwise about evidence for god.

You can't use reasoning like that because it can always be turned back on you. It is a pretty common type of fallacy called special pleading.
http://http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/special-pleading.html

This applies to your post above too. I can turn that around to say the IPU provides you with just 2 paths, bag of oats, no bag of oats, first gets heaven, second gets hell.

Well, what I said is biblical. So, I choose to go by God.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

What I'm getting at is that there is no reason to believe anything you say about the rules that god has set up. Just like there is no reason to believe my IPU examples. But they are equivalent. Both are hearsay.

You are ignoring my examples most likely because you think them silly and you certainly don't believe them. But why? Why don' t you believe me when I say that the IPU wants to save you?

Because God has said He is alone God and there is no other besides Him.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

I'll grant you that
So, let us move beyond the pointlessness of talking about whether or not there might or might not be actual objective empirical evidence, shall we?

Provide or demonstrate said evidence. As a theist myself, I would love to see such. If said evidence cannot be demonstrated, then the entire conversation of whether or not evidence might or might not exist serves no point at all.

Well, what would be considered evidence by you? What criteria must it meet?

 

[atheist88]

Well, what I said is biblical. So, I choose to go by God.

Oh, so if I produce a book that was divinely inspired by the IPU clearing laying out the guidelines on when the bag of oats should be left and exactly how much and what type, then you will believe it?

 

[atheist88]

Because God has said He is alone God and there is no other besides Him.

Well he must be mistaken because the IPU said that he is the only god to have ever existed. In fact, the IPU has a special hell for people who worship false gods.

Do you realize that the bible is far from unique and certainly was not the first to posit a god-man that sacrificed himself for the good of mankind. Born of a virgin, god made man for a sacrifice, sacrificed on a cross, eatting of representative flesh and blood...all done before the bible was ever written. If you are going to believe stories like this, why not at least believe in the originals?

 

[corvus_corax]

Well, what would be considered evidence by you? What criteria must it meet?

Well, very basically, it must be objective.
If you will allow me a small example-
In 1915, the general relativity theory was put forth by Einstein. Part of this theory spoke of "curved space".
The objective evidence for this came in 1919 when it was actually shown, during an eclipse, that the light from distant stars was bent as it passed by the sun, thus objectively demonstrationg what GR had predicted. It is considered objective due to the fact that anybody can look at this evidence and plainly see the effects of curved space.

So the evidence presented must be objective.

Likewise, the evidence must point to the existence of the Christian God, as opposed to evidence that may point to a general "deity".

Although, I'll admit that Id be impressed with any objective empirical evidence that points to any deity at all (yours, mine, or even a member of a polytheistic pantheon)

A touch of parsimony helps as well


Let's start there and see where we go, shall we?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Well, very basically, it must be objective.
If you will allow me a small example-
In 1915, the general relativity theory was put forth by Einstein. Part of this theory spoke of "curved space".
The objective evidence for this came in 1919 when it was actually shown, during an eclipse, that the light from distant stars was bent as it passed by the sun, thus objectively demonstrationg what GR had predicted. It is considered objective due to the fact that anybody can look at this evidence and plainly see the effects of curved space.

So the evidence presented must be objective.

Likewise, the evidence must point to the existence of the Christian God, as opposed to evidence that may point to a general "deity".

Although, I'll admit that Id be impressed with any objective empirical evidence that points to any deity at all (yours, mine, or even a member of a polytheistic pantheon)

A touch of parsimony helps as well


Let's start there and see where we go, shall we?

Okay, I have some examples. Prophecy fufilment (dispersation of Israelites and their uniting again into a country, technilogical advancements, weather/space events/patterns...etc [I can't find the information on the other larger things at the moment]).

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Oh, so if I produce a book that was divinely inspired by the IPU clearing laying out the guidelines on when the bag of oats should be left and exactly how much and what type, then you will believe it?

God said He is the only God, you either believe Him or not.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Well he must be mistaken because the IPU said that he is the only god to have ever existed. In fact, the IPU has a special hell for people who worship false gods.

Do you realize that the bible is far from unique and certainly was not the first to posit a god-man that sacrificed himself for the good of mankind. Born of a virgin, god made man for a sacrifice, sacrificed on a cross, eatting of representative flesh and blood...all done before the bible was ever written. If you are going to believe stories like this, why not at least believe in the originals?

I choose to believe God Himself.

 

[SaintAugustine]

Jesus is both God and Man...the sacrifice is that God takes our place for our crimes, but to it as God, well, is kind of a cop out. So God enters time/space and becomes man. The Passion is very real for Jesus, every inch of pain. Literally, God take the sins on the world on himself.

 

[JGL53]

Jesus is both God and Man...the sacrifice is that God takes our place for our crimes, but to it as God, well, is kind of a cop out. So God enters time/space and becomes man. The Passion is very real for Jesus, every inch of pain. Literally, God take the sins on the world on himself.

How sweet - so your unsubstanciated belief is that your imagined god sacrificed himself to himself because his created beings used their free wills just the way he knew they would. So he did what he always knew he would do. ???

Sounds like pure unadulterated insanity to me. Yet, inexplicably, most of the christians I know, and who claim to believe this insane stuff, seem to be quite sane. It is a mystery.

Hmmm - maybe people are just repeating what they know is sociably accepted and expected of them, yet they really don't believe, not really, simply because, like 2 + 2 = 5, it is not believable, not even through an exercise of the strongest will? Could that be it?

 

[SaintAugustine]

How sweet - so your unsubstanciated belief is that your imagined god sacrificed himself to himself because his created beings used their free wills just the way he knew they would. So he did what he always knew he would do. ???

Sounds like pure unadulterated insanity to me. Yet, inexplicably, most of the christians I know, and who claim to believe this insane stuff, seem to be quite sane. It is a mystery.

Hmmm - maybe people are just repeating what they know is sociably accepted and expected of them, yet they really don't believe, not really, simply because, like 2 + 2 = 5, it is not believable, not even through an exercise of the strongest will? Could that be it?

Lets try this...a King makes a series of decrees...the penalty is death.

One day someone breaks the law. The offender must pay the price.

However, the King loves the offender. He can't repeal the law, that would be bending the rules. He can't cancel cancel the execution, that would be favoritism...

As the pile of flames is lit, and the offender brought to pay for his crimes..the King commands the halt..

The King slowly walks down, and says.."I will take the offender's place."

thats it in a nutshell...

 

[atheist88]

I choose to believe God Himself.

So god literally spoke to you and told you these things?

Ok, so now I'm worried about you.