How could Jesus dying be considered a sacrifice?

[Lilly of the Valley]

All fine and well IF there were any evidence of the literal existence of some god. There isn't. That's why faith is required. And that's why there are thousands of competing faiths - all of which, including all brands of christianity, are unsubstantiated by any proof, evidence, sound logic, or any reasonable argument - it all just amounts to mere "say so". And "say so" isn't worth a bucket of warm spit.

Well, the same applies to those that say that God isn't real because no evidence has been provided to prove He isn't real....thus, it's says so on their part as well.

 

[JGL53]

Well, the same applies to those that say that God isn't real because no evidence has been provided to prove He isn't real....thus, it's says so on their part as well.

Sorry, but the above statement is devoid of cognitive content. There is no onus on me to disprove another’s extraordinary claim. The burden of proof is always on the one making the positive claim.

E.g., let us say that you (the believer) and I (the non-believer) disagreed on the existence of werewolves, or giant invisible flesh-eating flying pigs. I say that “That’s all fine and well IF there were any evidence of the literal existence of werewolves and giant invisible flesh-eating flying pigs, but there isn’t. Faith is required. Your claims are unsubstantiated by any proof, evidence, sound logic, or any reasonable argument – it is just a matter of “say so” on your part.

And if you reply that those like me who see no reason to believe that werewolves are not real are in the same boat as you because they have provided no evidence to prove werewolves are not real – well, that’s just illogical to the point of silliness.

This is Logic 101.

 

[atheist88]

Did I say you can't understand good and evil? No. I said just because you don't understand something, doesn't make it anyless just or automatically wrong. God Himself said He is higher and His ways aren't ours.

I'm described an event orchestrated by someone, in this case god, and I judge that action to be good or evil. In this case I judge it to be evil, therefore, the person or god who caused it is also evil. What am I failing to understand?

If a parent held their child in a closet and tortured them for years, under what scenario can you imagine that parent not being evil?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

I'm described an event orchestrated by someone, in this case god, and I judge that action to be good or evil. In this case I judge it to be evil, therefore, the person or god who caused it is also evil. What am I failing to understand?

If a parent held their child in a closet and tortured them for years, under what scenario can you imagine that parent not being evil?

One, you are making a claim and assumption w/o all the facts or even bothering to know the motive or the deity in question.

 

[Mistadobalina]

Well, the same applies to those that say that God isn't real because no evidence has been provided to prove He isn't real....thus, it's says so on their part as well.

I'm going to assume something does not exist until I am made aware of evidence supporting its existence.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

I'm going to assume something does not exist until I am made aware of evidence supporting its existence.

Okay. Does not being aware of the evidence mean there is no evidence?

 

[corvus_corax]

Okay. Does not being aware of the evidence mean there is no evidence?

I believe in God.
Not your version of God, granted, but Im still a theist.

And I am willing to go on record and state that there is NO objective empirical evidence of God, mine or yours.

Now, you seem to be implying that there is (or might be) evidence for such, but that some people are merely unaware of it.

If that is what you are implying, then put up. Show the objective empirical evidence that demonstrates the existence of God. Quit hinting, quit beating around the bush, stop implying that there may or may not be evidences.
Just produce (or demonstrate) the objective empirical evidence.

If that is not what you are implying, then just be straightforward and admit that there is no such evidence.

Plain and simple

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

I believe in God.
Not your version of God, granted, but Im still a theist.

And I am willing to go on record and state that there is NO objective empirical evidence of God, mine or yours.

Now, you seem to be implying that there is (or might be) evidence for such, but that some people are merely unaware of it.

If that is what you are implying, then put up. Show the objective empirical evidence that demonstrates the existence of God. Quit hinting, quit beating around the bush, stop implying that there may or may not be evidences.
Just produce (or demonstrate) the objective empirical evidence.

If that is not what you are implying, then just be straightforward and admit that there is no such evidence.

Plain and simple

I state the previous question again, if you don't see the evidence, does that mean there isn't any? Simply answer yes or no.

 

[corvus_corax]

I state the previous question again, if you don't see the evidence, does that mean there isn't any? Simply answer yes or no.

If I dont see evidence, that does not necessarily mean that the evidence doesnt exist.
So my "simple answer" would be No.

The problem is, no believer has ever produced any objective empirical evidence of God's existence.
They havent because they cant.
They cant because such does not exist.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

If I dont see evidence, that does not necessarily mean that the evidence doesnt exist.
So my "simple answer" would be No.

The problem is, no believer has ever produced any objective empirical evidence of God's existence.
They havent because they cant.
They cant because such does not exist.

Thank you for answering the question.

 

[atheist88]

One, you are making a claim and assumption w/o all the facts or even bothering to know the motive or the deity in question.

I don't know the parent in my example nor do I know their motives, still I judge the action to be evil. Do you judge the action to be evil?

Why is it necessary to know the parent or their motives if they torture their children? Certainly there is no possible explaination to justify this. If you think otherwise, please offer one.

 

[atheist88]

Thank you for answering the question.

You act as if you have made a point here. I fail to see what it is...

Let me return the question to you.

If you are not aware of any evidence, does that mean that there is evidence?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

I don't know the parent in my example nor do I know their motives, still I judge the action to be evil. Do you judge the action to be evil?

Why is it necessary to know the parent or their motives if they torture their children? Certainly there is no possible explaination to justify this. If you think otherwise, please offer one.

Okay, a human parent torturing their child isn't right.

Now, God intended hell for satan and demons due to their rebellion and sin. Man then choose to do rebellion and sin just like them, the consequence for rebellion and sin is hell, it wasn't ment for man, until they sinned. All have the opp. to escape and yet stilll folks reject that. God isn't to blame, people are.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

You act as if you have made a point here. I fail to see what it is...

Let me return the question to you.

If you are not aware of any evidence, does that mean that there is evidence?

No, but it doesn't mean there isn't either. The point I am stating is that just because you may not be aware of it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

 

[atheist88]

Okay, a human parent torturing their child isn't right.

Now, God intended hell for satan and demons due to their rebellion and sin. Man then choose to do rebellion and sin just like them, the consequence for rebellion and sin is hell, it wasn't ment for man, until they sinned. All have the opp. to escape and yet stilll folks reject that. God isn't to blame, people are.

So the robber that shoots me in the head for not giving him my money isn't to blame for my death? I am because I had the chance to escape it.

To make that example closer match the scenario you are presenting, we would need to say that my great-great-great grandfather refused to give some robber his money so he shoots me in the head.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

So the robber that shoots me in the head for not giving him my money isn't to blame for my death? I am because I had the chance to escape it.

To make that example closer match the scenario you are presenting, we would need to say that my great-great-great grandfather refused to give some robber his money so he shoots me in the head.

Well, that example seems kinda off to me. Anyway, we all commit sins now of our own will thus willfully sending ourselves to hell anyway. Now the consequence of sin is death which all can escape...but it's up to you to take the escape route that is already provided.

 

[corvus_corax]

The point I am stating is that just because you may not be aware of it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

Which, by itself, doesn't mean anything.
Stating that there may or may not be evidence whether or not one is aware of it makes no point at all.

Objective empirical evidence. That's all Im asking for. If it cannot be provided by anybody (which seems to me to be the case), then talking about the "possibility" of evidence is pointless.

 

[atheist88]

Well, that example seems kinda off to me. Anyway, we all commit sins now of our own will thus willfully sending ourselves to hell anyway. Now the consequence of sin is death which all can escape...but it's up to you to take the escape route that is already provided.

It isn't off by much, both the robber and god has given me an ultimatum. Do as I say or suffer a terrible death.

What is sin? Sin only has any meaning after you believe in the christian god. It is meaningless before that point. I don't believe in sin. I don't believe in god. I don't believe in hell. I have made no choice concerning any of those things.

If god does exist and I someday stand before him in judgement, how can he possibly torture me for eternity for a choice I never conciously made?

Remember, god made hell for the express purpose of sending people to it unless you are saying he didn't know he would end up doing that.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Which, by itself, doesn't mean anything.
Stating that there may or may not be evidence whether or not one is aware of it makes no point at all.

Objective empirical evidence. That's all Im asking for. If it cannot be provided by anybody (which seems to me to be the case), then talking about the "possibility" of evidence is pointless.

Well, stating that there isn't any, is also equaly pointless then since it's merely only a possibility and not acutal beyond a doubt fact.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

It isn't off by much, both the robber and god has given me an ultimatum. Do as I say or suffer a terrible death.

What is sin? Sin only has any meaning after you believe in the christian god. It is meaningless before that point. I don't believe in sin. I don't believe in god. I don't believe in hell. I have made no choice concerning any of those things.

If god does exist and I someday stand before him in judgement, how can he possibly torture me for eternity for a choice I never conciously made?

Remember, god made hell for the express purpose of sending people to it unless you are saying he didn't know he would end up doing that.

Actually no. The consequence of sin is death, it's that simple. It was like that for satan and demons and for us too, but we choose that death, God doesn't make us. Plus, the reason He wants us to obey Him is for our own good to begin w/.

Yes you have. If you don't choose life, you choose death.

Well, the thing is you have.

No, it was for SATAN and DEMONS, but man choose sin and thus got the same consequence of rebellion that satan and demons got since God doesn't show partiality.