How Could God allow this?

Guojing said:

Paul calls it a "gift". If you have to do obedience, your righteousness is no longer a gift

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Most people consider their good marriage a gift. Many consider children a gift. Doesn’t mean you didn’t have to do anything to receive nor do anything once you’ve received it. Doesn’t mean you cannot lose a gift. Many have.

And one things for sure, if you neglect a gift, you’re very likely not to have it in some years.

Dorothy Mae said:

Most people consider their good marriage a gift. Many consider children a gift. Doesn’t mean you didn’t have to do anything to receive nor do anything once you’ve received it. Doesn’t mean you cannot lose a gift. Many have.

And one things for sure, if you neglect a gift, you’re very likely not to have it in some years.

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Okay we can agree to disagree then.

Guojing said:

Your definition of faith includes works too?

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Does your understanding of love include works?

Guojing said:

Okay we can agree to disagree then.

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Yes but I’m sorry for anyone who thinks salvation is like a christmas gift and not like the gift of marriage.

ZNP said:

Whenever you are presented with a logical argument and you agree with all the premises but don't agree with the conclusion, it indicates they have left out a few key premises.

I would argue that one absolutely critical premise to this argument that most do not bring up is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God created this tree and planted it in the garden. The only commandment we had was to not eat it, and we are told that the day in which we eat it we will die. It also causes us to be expelled from the garden. However, it is a good tree, created by God, that causes us to know good and evil, just like God. Death is not evil, in fact it serves a very important purpose.

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Paul points out in Romans 7 than by uttering the command, God created the environment for sin. If there had never been a command, there could not be disobedience of the command.

And of course, God knew all that was to transpire.

My conclusion is that God always fully intended man to know good and evil, as He does, and that is love. However, that course of study only started with the tree...and continues to this day.

No instruction seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.-- Hebrews 12

Do you not know that we will judge angels? -- 1 Corinthians 6

Can a judge be ignorant of what he is judging?

Dorothy Mae said:

Does your understanding of love include works?

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Faith and love are not equivalent concepts here.

Guojing said:

Faith and love are not equivalent concepts here.

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Doesn’t matter. Faith, love and hope...

Does your understanding of love include works? This is a “yes” or “no” question and it’s not a trick question.

Most people who emphasis faith as a gift think “Christmas” and this means they needs do nothing at all, not for God or anyone else. This is easily done since faith is not a material matter.

But love is also non-material and yet more concrete in the mind unless one has the same understanding of faith God has. So if you commit yourself to say love is disconnected from works, that says something about you that you won’t won’t to say publicly.

If you admit love is strongly tied to work(s/ing) you’re dangerously close to admitting if you love God (or anyone) there is WORK involved which is only a stones throw away from admitting faith without work(s) is non-existant (dead.)

Dorothy Mae said:

Doesn’t matter. Faith, love and hope...

Does your understanding of love include works? This is a “yes” or “no” question and it’s not a trick question.

Most people who emphasis faith as a gift think “Christmas” and this means they needs do nothing at all, not for God or anyone else. This is easily done since faith is not a material matter.

But love is also non-material and yet more concrete in the mind unless one has the same understanding of faith God has. So if you commit yourself to say love is disconnected from works, that says something about you that you won’t won’t to say publicly.

If you admit love is strongly tied to work(s/ing) you’re dangerously close to admitting if you love God (or anyone) there is WORK involved which is only a stones throw away from admitting faith without work(s) is non-existant (dead.)

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Some people require you to show love thru "acts of service", that would be works.

But faith is about believing, a mindset

Guojing said:

Some people require you to show love thru "acts of service", that would be works.

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Love that no one knows is there, especially the beloved, is dead.

But faith is about believing, a mindset

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Not to God.

So do you see love as something totally separate from demonstrable work (s?) Is work because you love only demanded by the other? (unjustly)

Dorothy Mae said:

Love that no one knows is there, especially the beloved, is dead.
Not to God.

So do you see love as something totally separate from demonstrable work (s?) Is work because you love only demanded by the other? (unjustly)

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You are the first person I met who regard faith and love as equivalent terms.

ZNP said:

Therefore I wanted to open this thread up to Christians so that we could examine the scriptures and understand "How could God allow this to happen?"

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So Christians could demonstrate the love and heroism and self-sacrifice and mercy and compassion of Christ in an imperfect, fallen world that has turned away and is trying to live apart from Him?

Or maybe he just wanted to see what Bob would do.

Hebrews 12:26-27 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but the heavens". The words 'once more' indicate the removing of what can be shaken - that is, created things - so that what cannot be shaken may remain.

Also, Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Heart2Soul said:

It is a good question and my best answer came from the Book of Job.
Satan came before God and He inquired what was he up to...Satan says like a roaring lion searching to and fro seeking whom I may devour.
God asked him...have considered my servant Job.
Satan Yes, but you have a hedge of protection around him and I can't touch him.
God took away that hedge and told him to do whatever he wanted but don't take his life.
So after Satan attacked Job....Job went into prayer and in the end Job never once cursed God and gave God Glory for He is a Sovereign God and for his good pleasure He created all things and it is His to give and to take away.
So what was the purpose of all this? His Word says our faith will tested by fire....Paul said we rejoice in trials and tribulations for they are the working of our patience (which I believe this to be connected with our faith).

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Good answer to look at Job; the human heart is so impatient.

Guojing said:

You are the first person I met who regard faith and love as equivalent terms.

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I didn’t say that. But you obviously refuse to answer the question. It’s not a question I came up with on my own. I had help although I’ve never read it anywhere.

Petros2015 said:

Also, Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

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Two stiff criteria.

Strong in Him said:

Maybe.
But it was your dismissive comment of victims being "fat and old" and that God was "purging a nation that had let itself go", that I found unnecessary.

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My uncle died of this and to be honest it was a blessing that he died because his quality of life had declined to the point where he hated his life. I miss him and on one level you are right it sounds cruel and heartless to say these things out loud. I would never have said them to my uncle even though he knew them to be true himself. He let himself go and with a little effort could have guarded himself against the ailments he suffered in his twilight years. COVID-19 was simply the nail in the coffin for him that denied extra years he did not want anyway. One would hope for a better and more dignified death than he had and even though age cannot be fought many of the things that make it so terrible can be. Statistically many of those dying are like my uncle, people who let themselves go and are now suffering the consequence of their poor stewardship. It cuts me that a man who was once so strong and sporty could be like he was in his last years but you can love a person and know the hard truthes about them at the same time.

Except for the front line medics who are working their socks off to help others. Or the teachers, teenagers or children.
What gave you the right to you write vulnerable/sick people off as being "fat and old"?

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A medic who sacrifices himself to save others is a heroic figure in my eyes but these and the younger people who die of this are the exceptions not the rule. This is a disease that targets old, fat and genetically flawed people. It contrasts with Spanish flu which targeted healthy people. I am just describing this as it is in an effort to understand why it comes to us now.

So basically it's their own fault they're dying?
Such compassion.

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My uncles death so early was his own fault yes, as is the case with many who are dying of this , though not all. It is a hard truth. To be compassionate we start with the truth.

So a person's physical health depends on, or reflects, their spiritual condition?
Not in my experience. Joni Eareckon-Tada is a wonderful woman. David Watson described a new intimacy with the Lord when he has cancer. Alec Buchannan, Marge Williers, David Watson, possibly John Wimber and others maintained a life of Christian service, pray, Bible study and so on while battling ill health. Locally, I know many who have amazing spiritual lives but still contend with physical problems.

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Sickness and pain are a part of the Christian experience and from Job to the big names you mentioned that is not always that persons fault. Some truly powerful Christian characters have shared uplifting messages from these kinds of experience. It is how we respond to such pains that defines us. But there is a link over the broad mass of people between good stewardship and disciplined spirituality and some of our pains are our own fault and America has a lot of obese people who deserve to get sick because of their own neglect. One can pray for Gods mercy and grace towards these people out of love but one should not bless the neglect and the reality itself.

Some may even be perfectly fit, physically, yet are not Christians, and judgemental, wicked and unkind towards others - i.e spiritually dead, physically healthy.

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God has allowed this Pandemic as He allowed the Spanish flu and the Plague. He is good and just and loving and He always has his reasons but maybe He is also harder than you would like when He wants us to learn something, repent of something or simply acknowledge who He is. Our God is an awesome God do not mess with Him would be what I am hearing right now. I would say the death of my uncle was an act of mercy by God and thank Him for it. I did not pray that his life be spared.