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How Come? version 2.0

IWantToBelieve

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Momma2H said:
IWantToBelieve, can I just ask you a few questions? Why do you need us to tell you why you should accept Christ as your Savior? What's the point if you don't believe it anyway? Is there a certain thing you're waiting to hear that hasn't already been said?

I dont need anyone to tell me why, it's just that I've been told so enough times that I should believe in christianity for me to warrant to seek out why others do. I do this because I'm an open minded person, to a certain extent. And if I learn something from this, is it not a better thing than if I never asked at all?

I'll tell you why I accepted Jesus as my Savior. Because I wanted to. I was taught about Him in Sunday school and about how He died on the cross for my sins, so that I could one day be in heaven with Him. But the only way I could go to heaven was by accepting Him in my heart. So, that's what I did. I have a personal relationship with Him to this day. I know he's real because He lives inside of me. I have been so blessed and I know it's not from my own doing. I don't deserve half the things I have or the life I'm living. There have been hard times, but I've found comfort in knowing that He is there for me through anything. He is a father to me and He's my strength. I couldn't imagine my life without Him in it.

Thanks for you input!

I'd assume it would be kind of like yours of uncertainty and wonder.

*BZZZZT* Wrong! lol @ people who jump to conclusions. Just because I dont know the definite answer to why we're all here, or because I'm here to find out why I should believe in jesus christ, definitely does NOT mean that my life is full of uncertainty and wonder. I'm actually pretty content not actually thinking about such things, becuase I really dont care about things like that ATM. But that doesnt change the fact that I'll gladly listen to a large majority of people who think they have the right answers and take their opinions into consideration.
 
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-Frank-

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...what is this thread about?

Why should one believe in God?

...one reason is because without God, this world is a bleak and depressing place where morality and man's sense of justice doesn't make sense.

40% of crimes committed in the US go unsolved (this includes rape, murders and kidnappings).

If there is no God, then "good moral people" have absolutely nothing on these kinds of people except some inhibitions that leave them fewer options for survival.

...it boggles the mind.
 
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IWantToBelieve

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-Frank- said:
40% of crimes committed in the US go unsolved (this includes rape, murders and kidnappings).

If there is no system of unity and a definition of what is right and wrong, then "good moral people" have absolutely nothing on these kinds of people except some inhibitions that leave them fewer options for survival.

^^this is how I feel.
 
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-Frank-

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Well, even if we did have a unified understanding of what is right or wrong,
then "good moral people" have absolutely nothing on these kinds of people except some inhibitions that leave them fewer options for survival.
For starters, most people concur that murder, rape and kidnapping is wrong. That does not change the statistic.

And even if it did, morality gives man no advantage. All it does is depress him at the injustice in the world.

Without final restitution (only meetable by God), man's cry for justice to be done in the world is meaningless.
 
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Reformationist

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IWantToBelieve said:
If you cant help me, you can leave?

Well, I was attempting to help you but I can see that you're here for an argument and nothing more. I get enough of that from fellow Christians with whom I share a belief in God so I have no desire to engage in petty vollies with you. I have already told you that it is an exercise in futility to think that faith comes by way of someone giving a good argument for the existance of God.

It is quite apparent that whenever anyone in this thread has contradicted you or not said what you want to hear, you act insulted and get offensive.

I'll leave you in the hands of more capable, or more gullible (however you want to view it) apologists.

...I'm all about being nice.

Strange...I'm not picking up on that "all about being nice" thing from you.

A word of advice, if you're interested. If you want someone to devote any substantial time to conversing with you about such an involved, and personal, topic, try not being so defensive and quick to shove them out the door.

Have a blessed evening.
 
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IWantToBelieve

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Reformationist said:
Well, I was attempting to help you but I can see that you're here for an argument and nothing more.

Where'd I say that? Arguing is off-topic.

I get enough of that from fellow Christians with whom I share a belief in God so I have no desire to engage in petty vollies with you.

There's a solution to that. Dont start em.

I have already told you that it is an exercise in futility to think that faith comes by way of someone giving a good argument for the existance of God.

Your exercise of futlity revolved around belittling my opinions instead of explaining your own. That's what got the last topic locked, just trying to prevent that from happening, you understand.

It is quite apparent that whenever anyone in this thread has contradicted you or not said what you want to hear, you act insulted and get offensive.

Exactly, because this thread is here for me to hear why other christians believe in god, but instead you used this opportunity to ridicule why I believed in the Big Bang theory and instead never contributed like I had asked.

Strange...I'm not picking up on that "all about being nice" thing from you.

That's because when you shove words in my mouth or claim that I'm something that I'm not, I'm going to defend myself. It is this kind of behavior from other forum-goers that got my old topic locked. You can see for yourself, I posted the link on page 2, start from page 20 until the end and you'll see that the constant act of bickering over someone else's opinion instead of submitting your own caused the innocent member to defend himself, which in turn led to further conflict by the other member, and eventually the topic was locked. So obviously that plan didnt work. Same thing's happening here. I'm going to ask you politely not to contradict my beliefs in the Big Bang theory, even with how much I really dont care about the subject, it's still an opinion that is playing an active part of this thread, and it is not kind of you to state that I am unable to defend my own beliefs when you question them.

A word of advice, if you're interested. If you want someone to devote any substantial time to conversing with you about such an involved, and personal, topic, try not being so defensive and quick to shove them out the door.

A word of advice, if you're intersted. If you want to try to converse with someone, try doing so without judging their opinions and putting words in their mouth. It does wonders, I'll swear on it.
 
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chilehed

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IWantToBelieve said:
chilehed said:
I'm an engineer, so I rely on facts. I could tell you the reasoning that convinced me if you like.

Please do, I'm all ears.
Sorry I disappeared, I got sidetracked. I thought that I had saved something I'd written a while back on my hard drive, but I can't find it. I'll be back.
 
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chilehed

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It'll be difficult in a forum like this to do much more than point you in the direction I took. If you're really interested it'll involve a bit of study on your part, but it's a worthwhile investment of time.

The process and propositional chain that worked for me went something like this:

1. Rid yourself of any preconception that miracles are impossible, that all causes are observable, or that everything that's real can be demonstrated through science. All of these are logically unsupportable and amount to an assumption that God does not exist, which would beg the question.

2. Come to an understanding of who and what God is, and for that I highly recommend "A Shorter Summa: The Essential Philosophical Passages of Saint Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica", by Peter Kreeft.

3. By definition, science cannot provide evidence for or against God’s existence.

4. Therefore, if God wanted us to know about Him, He’d have to leave us historical evidence.

5. By the rules and standards of historical evidence (which are different than the rules and standards of scientific evidence), the Biblical accounts of Jesus of Nazareth are reliable records of historical events (read “Evidence that Demands a Verdict, Vol 1”, by Josh McDowell, for a decent treatment).

6. The historical evidence shows that Jesus DID die and come back to life. To reject this out of hand involves a violation of proposition #1 above.

7. Jesus claimed to be God. The Apostles claimed that He was God. You can decide to believe it or not; if not then the only option is to believe that he was either a nutcase or very evil.

8. The historical record of Jesus personality is inconsistent with that of an evil or insane person. The most logical conclusion is that He is God; again, to reject this out of hand is a violation of proposition #1.

9. Jesus gave authority to the Apostles to teach in His name, promised to send the Holy Spirit to protect them and the Church from ever teaching error, and promised that true doctrine would be preserved and taught, every day, forever. (supporting scripture available on request, but if you put together what Jesus said during the Passover discourse you'll get most of it.)

10. The Apostles, on the authority given to them by Jesus, claimed to be able to pass their office on to what we now call the Magesterium of the Catholic Church. (passages in Acts 1, 2 Timothy 2, 1 Corinthians 3, and numerous early Church fathers)

11. The Magesterium of the Catholic Church, on the apostolic authority given to it by Jesus, teaches that it is infallibly true that the Bible is the inspired word of God.

Yeah, this goes a bit past what you asked for (and I can sense the flame-throwers heating up at #'s 9 through11), but it's where I ended up. Just start at #1 and take it one step at a time. If you get interested in #'s 9-11, a thread entitled "Why I believe in the Magesterium of the Catholic Church" unpacks them a bit.

Hope this helps.

www.catholic.com
 
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IWantToBelieve

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So it's been a few months since the last time I posted. I was thinking that maybe over time, some newer members would be around to throw in their ideas as to why I should be a christian. So I bumped this thread in hopes of maybe finding out what others think about christianity.
 
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BroGinder

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A professorasked his class a question. He asked them if God created everything. The answer was an overwhelming yes.

The professor the responded with then if God created everything then he created evil.

There was an overwhelming confusion through the class.

One young man sttod up and asked the professor a few questions.

Does Cold Exist? Professor stated Yes
The Student replied there is not such thing as Cold. COld is a human term used to define the lack of heat. It is the lack of heat that we feel. Not Cold

Does Darkness exist? Professor stated Yes

Once again, there is no sych thing as darkness. Darkness is a human word used to describe the lack of light. It is the lack of light we register that makes us feel like we are in darkness.

Does evil exist?

Evil is the Lack of God. Evil is the word used to describe the Lack of God.

90% of all Christians that I have met are people that would love you even if you had just been pulled from a stinky pile of poo.

Now I am not saying there are not some hypocrites cause there are. However, I do not have to answer for them.

The lack of God brings out violence, Crime, Evil. Society is much better in a God fear society because it brings the random acts of violence down, the acts up kindness increase and there is a greater respect for one another and their stuff. Hence creating a better place to live.



The students name was Albert Einstein
 
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Breaking Babylon

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If I ask a christian if I should have faith in god, they'll say yes. I ask because maybe someday one of them will give me a reason to have faith in something that I cant see or feel.

Scientifically, at least it is an attempt to explain the creation of the universe.

I'd like to offer some food for thought. :)

Science itself can't even explain a thought, yet, we have thoughts. Science can't explain why babies in the womb yawn though they're not dependant on their own lungs, yet they yawn. Science is a system of education guesses which shouldn't be our final authority -- if we take everything as we're spoonfed, how do we expect to actually learn?

Yes, this goes both ways. Don't take anything a Christian tells you to heart, but if you're seeking an answer, strive to find it for yourself. Science isn't going to prove anything, as it's an educated guess. A person isn't going to have the exact answer, as we've all come to Him in a different way. Why should you follow in our steps?

Take the 2 Timothy 2:15 approach. Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman needing not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

And while we're at it, don't take your own reasoning as final authority, either. As Intricatic said some pages back, maybe begin with a more Eastern approach. First, begin with a simple spiritual approach -- there's no need to start with the meat if you haven't begun with the milk, you know? Being raised in Sunday school never taught me a thing about spirituality, it was no different than a history lesson. Why? Not only was I physically and mentally young, but spiritually an infant[or less]. But once I came to understand and acknowledge spirituality, I became a genuine seeker.
Have you never once acknowledged that there could be a world unseen? That there are unseen forces at work? Even science will tell you this much is true -- radio waves, heat, sound waves, wind...

But as I said, don't let science be your complete source of reasoning. Something that can't explain a thought can't be too credible. Something that claims the possibility that 100 oranges could somehow fall into 10 perfect rows of 10, or that if every part of a watch was tossed into the air and suddenly one day come together in complete harmony, is an insult to our intelligence.

Is this not, in a sense, what the Big Bang Theory proposes?

"Whosoever shall humble himself shall be exalted,
whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased."

We have to let go of our pride somewhere along the way, and realize if we had the answer, we wouldn't still be searching. Who said that our manner of thinking, or the simple things we've seen, are final authority? The pagans and druids acknowledged spirituality, the indians acknowledged spirituality, it's been here as long as we can look back.

It's hard to hear when music, television, media, the busy sounds of traffic, crowds technology, etc are all-too-apparent.

Something which always amazed me is that the Buddhists saw Jesus as a buddha, the Hindus saw Him as a guru, some atheists know him as a good man, the rebellious youth spend a lot of time hating Him though they 'don't believe in Him', that one's most common. If you are content where you are, stay, because as the verse goes, don't expect to be exalted until you've humbled yourself. But if the thought, or idea, or hunch, or assumption, or possibility, really starts taking it's toll on you and you're ready to scrap your preconceptions and perspectives and begin to take that next big step in a new direction...

I pray that your search bears fruit.
 
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PolycarpII

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Since my last searching for faith thread was closed due to the fact that a certain individual simply would not stop ARGUING when I politely asked her not too, but instead made the topic heated enough that moderators thought that it should be locked, I have made this new thread to continue the conversation.



You're right. I only scan your posts to find that you are still arguing. I asked you not to, Red77's just trying to voice his own personal opinion but becuase you think that yours is the "right one" you continued to say that his was wrong, disproving him with "bible logic" that I dont believe in. If you're trying to convert me, I've already stated that I dont believe in anything that the bible says, so you'll have to do otherwise.



But you continuously produced replies that stated that his opinions were wrong using what the bible stated. This is NOT a debate forum! This is the Questions by Non-Christians forum! And my thread was about me finding faith! No debating!! I am open to all opinions, you are being rude by disclosing other opinions by saying that the bible is right. I only have repeated posts because I'm repeatedly asking you to stop putting your opinions over others because I'm open to ALL opinions.



I agree with him. So I asked the people of the thread to stop it with that kind of behavior. I liked his way of approaching me with god, but you didnt so you continously claimed that, simply put, he was "doing it wrong."



I done talking to you, I've said that many times. I dont like your attitude towards myself and others.

[/COLOR]

That's exactly what I mean.

So again, this thread is NOT for debate. If you're going to give me a reason why I should believe in god, do so in this thread without using "repent or burn in hell" tactics or quoting bible verses that say "But jesus said this, and god said that, and blah blah blah blah blah", because I really dont believe in that kinda stuff, so it's really just pointless and repetitive.

Thanks in advance.
This is a question that plagues alot of people. We as a species rely too much on our senses if it cannot be physcally encountered then we don't believe it. Simply put my arguments for the existence of God will have two points. The first is Saint Anselm's Ontological Argument for the existence of God which is as follows: Because we humans are limited and conditional it is illogical to think that we could even begin to conceive of something so incomprehensible as God. It is not in our nature to be able to think about something that is limitless, timeless, beginningless, endless, unless something put it there. Simply put: we as humans cannot have any clue about something beyond our Universe, because we are of this universe, unless something put those ideas in our minds (i.e. revelation).

My next argument is Aristotle's argument for the existence of the Prime Mover (God). essentially we live in a universe that is not eternal, boundless, or timeless. Our Universe is conditional: all things collapse and fall apart from the smallest atom to the largest Galaxy. Also, when these things die then new things come from them, basically all things have their origin in something else. Therefore, because the Universe exists in time and Space and is not in anyway beyond them then it must mean that there was a point at which it did not exist. Its origin could not be an infinite round of expand and contract because that would contradict the law that all natural things, at some point, cease to exist; there is nothing eternal or much less infinite in this Universe, therefore, the Universe came from somewhere else. This "somewhere else" is called God which is not conditional, limitable, or comprehensible; he is not of this Universe, therefore, cannot be proven to exist by it.
Basically, if you want to believe in God then just have to believe in God. Its not simple and its not easy, but if you will look at the Universe and all the laws and conditions and complexities limiting it then you will see that there is truly intellgent design.

Disclaimer: These arguments are grossly over simplified. Please take no offense at the haphazard way in which I use them or if I miss some important parts. I merely wrote it like this to make a quick point.
 
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IWantToBelieve

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Science itself can't even explain a thought, yet, we have thoughts. Science can't explain why babies in the womb yawn though they're not dependant on their own lungs, yet they yawn. Science is a system of education guesses which shouldn't be our final authority -- if we take everything as we're spoonfed, how do we expect to actually learn?

Well there are things called hypotheses that I certainly dont just accept as the truth.

Why should you follow in our steps?

In a way, this is my own series of steps.

First, begin with a simple spiritual approach -- there's no need to start with the meat if you haven't begun with the milk, you know?

How do I do that?

Have you never once acknowledged that there could be a world unseen? That there are unseen forces at work? Even science will tell you this much is true -- radio waves, heat, sound waves, wind...

We can prove that all of those things exist, though.

Something that can't explain a thought can't be too credible.

And faith should be?

The first is Saint Anselm's Ontological Argument for the existence of God which is as follows: Because we humans are limited and conditional it is illogical to think that we could even begin to conceive of something so incomprehensible as God. It is not in our nature to be able to think about something that is limitless, timeless, beginningless, endless, unless something put it there.

My next argument is Aristotle's argument for the existence of the Prime Mover (God). essentially we live in a universe that is not eternal, boundless, or timeless.

I dont mean to take this the wrong way, but basically are they saying that we cant prove that he's real because he is too unbelievable to believe?
 
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PolycarpII

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I dont mean to take this the wrong way, but basically are they saying that we cant prove that he's real because he is too unbelievable to believe?

No it's cool. Saint Anselm's Argument is a difficult one. It means that God exists because Humans, which are animals, are able to conceive of somethig that is infinitely beyond them to exist. We as humans, being animals, should do like all other animals and be satisfied with being what we are. Meaning that as animals all we know is the conditional universe, that is all that we can empirically encounter, and to be able to reason that some entity which is beyond our knowing and comprehension; some entity which is far above the universe that is both beginningless and endless, that was neither born or created nor will ever die or cease to exist, is proof that there is a God.

But in reality if this doesn't really help you any just ignore it. However, if you want to believe in God then just believe in God. Because you earnestly want too believe in God: should be proof enough that it exists. You cannot prove the sun exists by looking at a plant. Like wise you cannot prove that God exists by looking at HIS creation.
 
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I'll have a go at trying to explain why I believe God exists without using the bible..........its basically experiences that I've had that I cant put down to anything or anyone else.........

when i first decided to take the leap of faith I felt an inner calm and peace for about six weeks which was pretty undescribable, all the problems i was experiencing (which were quite a few at the time) just faded into insignificance, it was like there was another controlling hand at work for those weeks where all the emotional pain and upheaval that i was going through was just magically wiped away in a sense......I had a strength to deal with things which i wouldnt have had on my own and those weeks helped me to retain some of it for difficult times that were ahead too, ironically with a church........! I cant say whether everyone has had a similar experience who first believes but I have met a few who have, I did question it as well afterwards, was it just delusion? Was it as real as I imagined? etc but i recall some of it in pretty clear detail.....it was a feeling unlike any other I've had and it'd be pretty hard to imagine........!

Anyway.....thats one reason.....another which i may have already mentioned is music, this always reaffirms my belief in God because its simply too amazing and complex to be pure accident (I'm a muso so I am biased in this respect....!) the intricate and infinite array of sounds that are there within the mathematical framework never cease to astound me to be honest.....its something that brings so much pleasure to mine and i should imagine most peoples lives in one way or another........yet its something we take for granted tho i cant imagine a worthwhile life without it.......!
Well......probably hardly convincing evidence of the divine creator I'm sure but i hope these ramblings have ben of some use in helping you search onwards....!

I experienced the inner peace as well. When you need the extra strength, God does give it to you.
 
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Rafael

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God speaks to us all everyday with life. Life is the evidence of God, and the fact that God sent His Son and inspired the writing of scripture for man is no big surprise - especially since mankinds history is so short.
If a person takes the time and studies, they can see the population of the world evolving in perfect time with the three sons of Noah to the time we have today. Even the mitochondrial DNA proves all people today have a common mother. Science continues to prove the scriptures correct - that all things are made up of the unseen, yet demanding to see what speaks to us and is evidenced in life itself is supposedly not enough for some??? Trying to pass this incredibally sophisticated and intelligently designed existence off as all accidental really is not logical at all because all things have a cause, but that is what people try to do. Why? Because lawlessness is preferred by ego. Self is put before the will of God, and that is why man fell into sin and death when given their first and only rule to obey that came with a warning of death.
What does God say to us with life? It is so beautiful and awesome that mere words can varely express it, yet there is one thing that stains and tarnishes this existence and the Bible pulls no punches in desribing the horror and extremity that sin and death says in this life. We see its effect in the world news everyday and in our lives.
We live because of God - every breath we take, and it speaks louder than mere words although He has given us those, too, along with the Savior, Jesus, and way back home.
 
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Rafael

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What does that mean?
Recent genetic and archeological findings show that human beings did not evolve from ape-like creatures. With the discovery of what scientists have aptly named Y-chromosomal Adam and Mitochondrial Eve, new genetic and DNA evidence with the fossil record show very clearly that modern humans are not related to previously existing hominids as once believed. (Dr. Fazale Rana)
The Bible geneologies, nations and peoples shown in the Bible are reflected in the world we live today very closely. The population, if taking into account wars and historical events, can be counted and added up to logically be the numbers we have today. Look at the age of the United States alone. This "new world", as it was known, was very sparsely populated only 200 years ago, and kept for a reason according to the Bible, as a "pleasant place" for a people to flourish in and become a mighty nation. The Bible gives a complete account of history for mankind that is based upon Israel, and we see that very thing in our news everyday. The place where it all began and will end, according to the scriptures of the Bible, has become the center of the world happenings just as foretold by the prophets of God. Even Iraq is where the "promised land", from the Nile river to the Euphrates, is identified as in the Bible.
To understand these things, one has to study the scriptures and history to see if what the Bible reflects what is true or what is false. In my opinon, the Bible shows itself true just by observing the current events in light of what was already written of them.
Everyday, I find some new scientific evidence that shows that the Bible is true and that something is being turned around in human thinking and knowledge. We just are not as smart as we would like to think we are when it comes to basic things like life. If we were, we would be able to recreate what we seem to think we know how was started.
Being surrounded by intelligent design that is so wonderful in beauty and complexity, I cannot see why we have not figured out that God speaks to man, mainly, with the most wonderful and complex language there is - life. Is it a big surprise then, that He would also send His Word as a Living Word, which is what Jesus was called? All the things Jesus told us are so wonderful - that we are here because of love and are to learn it.
I used to be completely blind to God, myself, as a young person, but I can see now that the Bible words were true again: I had eyes, but could not see, and ears, but could not hear. It is like not being able to see the trees because of the forest. When I first started out seeking to know God better, I did not know how to believe because of being taught my whole life to be shallow towards the unseen, while everything we see is made of it. As I talked to God and asked Him for sight, it came and I was answered - not by voices, but by life itself. The Bible is a second witness to life, as we see those words played out as truth in our own lives. We need to be saved from death, and God has made provision for mankind to have it back through His great love and own sacrifice.
 
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Since my last searching for faith thread was closed due to the fact that a certain individual simply would not stop ARGUING when I politely asked her not too, but instead made the topic heated enough that moderators thought that it should be locked, I have made this new thread to continue the conversation.



You're right. I only scan your posts to find that you are still arguing. I asked you not to, Red77's just trying to voice his own personal opinion but becuase you think that yours is the "right one" you continued to say that his was wrong, disproving him with "bible logic" that I dont believe in. If you're trying to convert me, I've already stated that I dont believe in anything that the bible says, so you'll have to do otherwise.



But you continuously produced replies that stated that his opinions were wrong using what the bible stated. This is NOT a debate forum! This is the Questions by Non-Christians forum! And my thread was about me finding faith! No debating!! I am open to all opinions, you are being rude by disclosing other opinions by saying that the bible is right. I only have repeated posts because I'm repeatedly asking you to stop putting your opinions over others because I'm open to ALL opinions.



I agree with him. So I asked the people of the thread to stop it with that kind of behavior. I liked his way of approaching me with god, but you didnt so you continously claimed that, simply put, he was "doing it wrong."



I done talking to you, I've said that many times. I dont like your attitude towards myself and others.

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That's exactly what I mean.

So again, this thread is NOT for debate. If you're going to give me a reason why I should believe in god, do so in this thread without using "repent or burn in hell" tactics or quoting bible verses that say "But jesus said this, and god said that, and blah blah blah blah blah", because I really dont believe in that kinda stuff, so it's really just pointless and repetitive.

Thanks in advance.
I have a question don't take this the wrong way or anythig because i completely don't mean it like that. but why are you on christianforums.com if you don't want people to use verses because you 100 percent don't believe in it?
 
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