How Come? version 2.0

[IWantToBelieve]

Since my last searching for faith thread was closed due to the fact that a certain individual simply would not stop ARGUING when I politely asked her not too, but instead made the topic heated enough that moderators thought that it should be locked, I have made this new thread to continue the conversation.

reading your posts here relays you either haven't READ my entire [lengthy] posts, or you haven't understood them.

You're right. I only scan your posts to find that you are still arguing. I asked you not to, Red77's just trying to voice his own personal opinion but becuase you think that yours is the "right one" you continued to say that his was wrong, disproving him with "bible logic" that I dont believe in. If you're trying to convert me, I've already stated that I dont believe in anything that the bible says, so you'll have to do otherwise.

I'm not arguing my points, Red77 has engaged me in the dialog; asking me to produce replies. Plus, you've addressed me with your latest points to retaliate against them.

Unless I'm mistaken, this IS a debate forum?
why are MY posts, "arguing", and your repeated posts aren't???
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I don't get intimidated by intense debate - when I know what the Bible says. Maybe that's what some are used to? I dunno.

But you continuously produced replies that stated that his opinions were wrong using what the bible stated. This is NOT a debate forum! This is the Questions by Non-Christians forum! And my thread was about me finding faith! No debating!! I am open to all opinions, you are being rude by disclosing other opinions by saying that the bible is right. I only have repeated posts because I'm repeatedly asking you to stop putting your opinions over others because I'm open to ALL opinions.

Red's been challenging and attacking my theology as "unloving", "preferring" people go to hell, & "pious"... What if I said something that harsh about him???

I agree with him. So I asked the people of the thread to stop it with that kind of behavior. I liked his way of approaching me with god, but you didnt so you continously claimed that, simply put, he was "doing it wrong."

If Red wants to stop, then he can tell me he's done - I'm fine with that. If you're done, YOU can say you're done with this - I'm fine with that too...
Just don't engage me to reply or respond with added issues & questions & then attack me for responding.

I done talking to you, I've said that many times. I dont like your attitude towards myself and others.

Good points. Personally, I think the "Fear of Hell" approach is ineffective anymore. Not only that, but it seems to produce people who follow Christ for negative reasons.... all this besides the point that it's really just plain silly, considering one is spreading a message of Grace.

That's exactly what I mean.

So again, this thread is NOT for debate. If you're going to give me a reason why I should believe in god, do so in this thread without using "repent or burn in hell" tactics or quoting bible verses that say "But jesus said this, and god said that, and blah blah blah blah blah", because I really dont believe in that kinda stuff, so it's really just pointless and repetitive.

Thanks in advance.

 

[intricatic]

You should do so because it's good for your eternal soul.

Ha.

A line from Fallout. Sorry if nobody else gets that.

First of all, I'd like to ask why you find so much fault in the Bible. I won't bother to badger you about "The Bible says it's true, so the Bible must be true" type subjects, so no worries there. But I'm still curious.

Also, I would ask what your specific faults are with the Christian faith, discluding the Bible.

 

[IWantToBelieve]

I just dont believe in god, simple as that. People keep telling me I should, but what's the point when noone can physically prove his existance? If there really is an afterlife, then certainly I'd like to go there. But with so many religions with so many different beliefs, what is it that makes christianity the "right" one?

 

[missionette]

Hey Iwant2believe...

Since I wasn't a part of the previous thread, I just have a few questions.

So, what "faith" are you looking for? Anything specific, or are you just wanting people to try to prove their religion to you?

Also, is it okay if we reply with quotes from the Bible, or do you just want us to stick to interpretations?

Thanks
missionette

 

[intricatic]

I just dont believe in god, simple as that. People keep telling me I should, but what's the point when noone can physically prove his existance? If there really is an afterlife, then certainly I'd like to go there. But with so many religions with so many different beliefs, what is it that makes christianity the "right" one?

Perhaps the problem that you're having is that you're examining a purely spiritual matter through the lense of Western Materialistic Philosophy. This type of philosophy does have it's place in helping to define the world, but it can be argued that it puts the world into a mold of antagonism towards the spiritual [and by this, I in no way mean that it removes superstitions, although it does that quite effectively by replacing them with observable standards and systems]. What I do mean by this is that our western philosophy denies the form behind the function. It seeks to explain how things work, but not why they are. The question of why they are is absolutely meaningless to western philosophy because it exists in the realms of metaphysics. Obviously, the quest for truth can be greatly hampered if we disqualify certain areas of inquiry before we even get to them or have a chance to examine them.

To simplify this, because I know that can be really confusing [I'd be beating my head into the wall if someone replied to me with that mess of words ] western philosophy, which is the basis of science and reason, discludes certain possible questions because they exist largely outside the boundaries of material logic.

The thing that you need to ask yourself, first, is whether you're willing to look at things through an Eastern perspective [to seek out all possible truths, from the question of how nature works, to why and how it is], or if you're content to just restrict yourself to questions that sort through rigidly formed logic. If you're looking for truth, I suggest adopting the perspective that there may be a meaning behind the cold logic, and that the logic that one sees is actually defined through that meaning.

 

[IWantToBelieve]

So, what "faith" are you looking for? Anything specific, or are you just wanting people to try to prove their religion to you?

Well, I really just want to know whether or not he's actually there or not. People keep telling me that I need to rely on faith, but I'm the kind of guy who relies on fact over faith.

Also, is it okay if we reply with quotes from the Bible, or do you just want us to stick to interpretations?

Sure thing. The only problem I have with bible quotes is when people claim that that's the truth and that I should believe everything the bible says because it's the book of god. People have said that, not thinking that an aethiest doesnt believe the same way that they do.

The thing that you need to ask yourself, first, is whether you're willing to look at things through an Eastern perspective [to seek out all possible truths, from the question of how nature works, to why and how it is], or if you're content to just restrict yourself to questions that sort through rigidly formed logic. If you're looking for truth, I suggest adopting the perspective that there may be a meaning behind the cold logic, and that the logic that one sees is actually defined through that meaning.

Sure thing, I've tried to do that, but I dont see where people can believe in a book so strongly. I mean, things like talking fire bushes and parting oceans, when I think of that kind of stuff I think of fiction novels. When I try to think of it as something that could actually happen, I always deny any possiblity because I havent really seen anything like that in modern days. People in the other thread kept saying "oh, even if you did see that kinda stuff, you still wouldnt believe." That's not true, if I saw those kinds of magic today (or if jesus walked into my room and simply said "sup, I'm jesus" and walked out) then I would immediately ask god for forgiveness and live my life as a believer, the whole nine yards. But without any kind of real motive to believe in something that I cant see or feel, well, it just kinda seems pointless. but i guess if there is a motive, it would be that people keep telling me that there is such a thing as god, so I guess that's why I'm here: to find out for myself.

 

[WickedServant]

Well, I really just want to know whether or not he's actually there or not. People keep telling me that I need to rely on faith, but I'm the kind of guy who relies on fact over faith.
Sure thing. The only problem I have with bible quotes is when people claim that that's the truth and that I should believe everything the bible says because it's the book of god. People have said that, not thinking that an aethiest doesnt believe the same way that they do.

Sure thing, I've tried to do that, but I dont see where people can believe in a book so strongly. I mean, things like talking fire bushes and parting oceans, when I think of that kind of stuff I think of fiction novels. When I try to think of it as something that could actually happen, I always deny any possiblity because I havent really seen anything like that in modern days. People in the other thread kept saying "oh, even if you did see that kinda stuff, you still wouldnt believe." That's not true, if I saw those kinds of magic today (or if jesus walked into my room and simply said "sup, I'm jesus" and walked out) then I would immediately ask god for forgiveness and live my life as a believer, the whole nine yards. But without any kind of real motive to believe in something that I cant see or feel, well, it just kinda seems pointless. but i guess if there is a motive, it would be that people keep telling me that there is such a thing as god, so I guess that's why I'm here: to find out for myself.

Hi, I want to believe.

First of all, I'd like to appologize on behalf of those who beat down the original post.

BTW, sup, I'm Jesus. But sometimes I'm not a good Jesus.

Truly, if you keep looking, you will find God. It might surprize you at the moment of realization. Chances are, you already do believe in God, it's just being repressed by experiences.

I appologize if this sounds kind of lame, but I see God all the time and don't recognize Him, and I've been a Christian for 7 years. (lol)

Have you ever seen Bruce Almighty? Love the line where Morgan Freeman says "A mother with 2 jobs who finds the time to take her kids to soccer practice; that's a miracle." Just thought I'd share that.

May you be blessed.

 

[intricatic]

Sure thing, I've tried to do that, but I dont see where people can believe in a book so strongly. I mean, things like talking fire bushes and parting oceans, when I think of that kind of stuff I think of fiction novels. When I try to think of it as something that could actually happen, I always deny any possiblity because I havent really seen anything like that in modern days. People in the other thread kept saying "oh, even if you did see that kinda stuff, you still wouldnt believe." That's not true, if I saw those kinds of magic today (or if jesus walked into my room and simply said "sup, I'm jesus" and walked out) then I would immediately ask god for forgiveness and live my life as a believer, the whole nine yards. But without any kind of real motive to believe in something that I cant see or feel, well, it just kinda seems pointless. but i guess if there is a motive, it would be that people keep telling me that there is such a thing as god, so I guess that's why I'm here: to find out for myself.

I'm not talking about a book. But most everything else is exactly what I'm talking about: Western Materialist Philosophy avoids all ideas relating to the supernatural, or the metaphysical, not because it doesn't include them as possible, but because it has no guage to measure them with. So these things become discluded as possibilities by default.

In other words, to accept a spiritual side of life in any form, you must first accept that it's possible for a spiritual side of life to exist. You also have to understand what that spiritual side implies, in order to fully understand why there is a need for it's exploration. For instance, you could start by trying to figure out what the difference is between any given man, and a great ape. You could categorize and observe the ape and the man's habbits, their individual psychology, their anatomical differences, their social behaviors, their genetic differences, etc...etc.... but in the process, you lose translation of what the most important differences are between the two. The spiritual element gets trampled under foot and replaced by facts and figures. There is no motivational understanding of the two, just semantic observations on some paper. That's the nature of the perspective you need in order to further an understanding of Christianity, or any religion for that matter.

In Christianity, one doesn't have faith in the Bible, necessarily. It is important to understand the parabolic meaning of a lot of the OT, although it's highly debatable that those stories may have been parabolic and not literal. I usually simply overlook this because it's insubstantial to the true message of Christ, which is in the New Testament. True, a lot of those things can be rather hard to believe, too. However, if you can acknowledge the fact that there may be more to this spiritual side of life than you can touch, feel, or see, and you acknowledge the idea that perhaps there really is a God, it's really not so much of a stretch to think that it may have been possible that Jesus walked the Earth and did the things claimed in the Bible.

 

[intricatic]

Hi, I want to believe.

First of all, I'd like to appologize on behalf of those who beat down the original post.

BTW, sup, I'm Jesus. But sometimes I'm not a good Jesus.

Truly, if you keep looking, you will find God. It might surprize you at the moment of realization. Chances are, you already do believe in God, it's just being repressed by experiences.

I appologize if this sounds kind of lame, but I see God all the time and don't recognize Him, and I've been a Christian for 7 years. (lol)

Have you ever seen Bruce Almighty? Love the line where Morgan Freeman says "A mother with 2 jobs who finds the time to take her kids to soccer practice; that's a miracle." Just thought I'd share that.

May you be blessed.

Ha, another awesome quote, too! I think the biggest miracles in life are the smallest things to us, the fact that the ordinary elements of our world can have so much more of a profound meaning than you can see at first glance.

 

[red77]

Ha, another awesome quote, too! I think the biggest miracles in life are the smallest things to us, the fact that the ordinary elements of our world can have so much more of a profound meaning than you can see at first glance.

A good point, one of the first reasons i started searching for meaning was because of the complexity just of life itself........everything we have is for a reason, our eyes to see, ears to hear etc.....and one of the biggest miracles that i reckon most of us take for granted is music........it's such an amazing thing that gives so much joy to countless people and it would be impossible for me to imagine life without it.......at first glance it doesnt really serve any practical purpose......but when u analyze it and see the structure thats in it along with the enjoyment it brings it honestly never ceases to amaze me.........i think that its one of many things that are 'minor' miracles in this life......its not tangible proof of the existence of God perhaps but its part of our life that certainly points to a creator........

 

[intricatic]

A good point, one of the first reasons i started searching for meaning was because of the complexity just of life itself........everything we have is for a reason, our eyes to see, ears to hear etc.....and one of the biggest miracles that i reckon most of us take for granted is music........it's such an amazing thing that gives so much joy to countless people and it would be impossible for me to imagine life without it.......at first glance it doesnt really serve any practical purpose......but when u analyze it and see the structure thats in it along with the enjoyment it brings it honestly never ceases to amaze me.........i think that its one of many things that are 'minor' miracles in this life......its not tangible proof of the existence of God perhaps but its part of our life that certainly points to a creator........

Anything presented from a creative power strikes me as an archetypical minor image of our Creator.
I dunno, the world itself strikes me as a very interesting place where everything has dual meanings. I guess that's a sort of miracle in it's own right.

 

[joyouspirit]

The FACT that you're asking is a start. Keep on asking, seeking and you shall find your answers, you'll be amazed where you will find it. God bless you, is that ok?

 

[Key]

You really should have started a 'Clean' topic. To Quote from a Locked Thread is tasteless. If you wanted to just make a point that you did not like the 'Turn or Burn' that is your right. But to have a Topic Locked and then to Continue on the "Offensive" on a diffrent topic, is cheating the system.


However, Why should you believe.

You know, That's a Great Question, but at the same time a Tough one to Answer.

I guess, because if you strip away the trash talk of the masses and the churches and TV pastors, Hate Preachers, Anti-Womans Right, KKK Groups, Racest Groups, Anti-Homosexual Groups, and the Like.

And If you can ignore all of them, then, This Jesus Guy, he has some great lessions about Life ya know.

I would have to say, if you don;t like the people that reprsent the religion, then do not follow that Religion.

You will know the right religion by the works and actions of it's followers. (God Says that)

Anyway, I wish you best in your searching.

May you Find what you Seek.

God Bless
Key

 

[IWantToBelieve]

You really should have started a 'Clean' topic. To Quote from a Locked Thread is tasteless. If you wanted to just make a point that you did not like the 'Turn or Burn' that is your right. But to have a Topic Locked and then to Continue on the "Offensive" on a diffrent topic, is cheating the system.

Just setting an example of the kinds of replies/people that I dont want. Call it tasteless if you like, but it's not, as I'm treating this as a continuation on the last thread, not a clean slate. Just with a more defined rules laid out beforehand that people will actually notice instead of ignoring like they did in the last thread.

 

[Mrs12bfishin]

Well here is why I believe:
I have grown up in a Christian church my whole life, so I grew up believing in Jesus. I was very young when I accepted Jesus as my saviour. However, I fell away from God when I was in my teens and did many things that I regret. The whole time, though, I knew that something was missing in my life, and as I came to realize later, it was Jesus. I came back to the Lord in my early twenties and asked for forgiveness and He accepted me with open arms. This probably sounds strange to unbelievers, but I'm sure most Christians can relate or at least understand. I know that God is real because he lives within me. I feel more connected when I am walking with the Lord (reading the Bible, praying, having fellowship, etc.) My soul grieves when I don't. Not to mention the many answered prayers (even the unanswered) that I have received, especially the ones that nobody else knew about.

The reason so many Christians quote the scripture is because we know it has the power to save. I pray that you find the truth in your search.

 

[Key]

Just setting an example of the kinds of replies/people that I dont want. Call it tasteless if you like, but it's not, as I'm treating this as a continuation on the last thread, not a clean slate. Just with a more defined rules laid out beforehand that people will actually notice instead of ignoring like they did in the last thread.

It was the Quoting that was Tasteless. The Quotes you provided were of little to no help regarding what "Rules" you wished followed, as I had and might very well never have any idea what had transpired between the people of your last post.

In Peace and Love.

God Bless

Key.

 

[IWantToBelieve]

K, then if anyone has any questions about where the quotes on the first page came from, check out my original topic.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2467161-how-come.html&page=28

 

[Key]

I pray and Hope that you Find what you seek this time around.

Always and In Service to Our Lord and Savor

God Bless

Key.

 

[WickedServant]

I would have to say, if you don;t like the people that reprsent the religion, then do not follow that Religion.

You will know the right religion by the works and actions of it's followers. (God Says that)

Eh... I wouldn't be too hasty in throwing out the message because you don't particularly like the messenger.

All I'm saying is that not all Christians are going to seem like wonderful people from the outside; just that they are more likely to be better people than they would be without God.

May you be blessed.

 

[Reformationist]

I just dont believe in god, simple as that.

Umm..IWTB, are you simply looking for someone to convince you that the God of the Bible is real? If so, you're engaging in an exercise in futility. Faith in God is not the product of being convinced of His truth. We will share the truth of the Gospel with you, if you desire to hear it, but, if you're thinking that any of us have the ability to create faith in you, you're sadly mistaken.

Also, if I may, your username is "IWantToBelieve." You may have already answered this but, what is it that you want to believe and why do you want to believe it?

God bless