How can you financially support a church whose finances are in a secret black box?

[RDKirk]

Because they didn't need it and you wanted to give to something that needed it.

That has nothing to do with "transparency." And it would affect whether I gave to something that was otherwise being neglected.

Some 'churches' have huge endowments of millions they have built up over the years. Still appealing for more. Also, they may be barely accomplishing their mission while spending lavishly on things you aren't allowed to know about and would never condone.

That's not difficult for a member to discern on a case-by-case basis. It's not something I would assume just because I don't personally get a look at their books.

 

[IntriKate]

I stopped tithing when I started work in a church as a finance assistant and saw ridiculous self indulgence and reimbursements the pastor was getting . Also the wasted finances when the artsy staff ran with fleeting ideas and useless ways to spend it. Witnessing the greed on one end while knowing strugglers were diligently tithing was hard to see.
This church had board members who were all friends with the pastor and would say yes to anything. The yearly audits didnt stop any greed as there is legal loopholes for spendage.
I actually quit and stopped going to church altogether when the hypocrisy became too much.

 

[lismore]

Some churches even print the YTD giving in the weekly church bulletin where it can be seen if the church is over or under budget as the year progresses."

In the church I attend there is an independent audit of the church finances by an accountancy firm, the full statement of accounts and the auditors report is available to all members and regular attending non members before the AGM. The AGM is not a rubber stamp exercise, there can be robust discussion and new decisions made. 1 Thessalonians 5:22 Avoid even the appearance of evil. Concealing financial information from members is at best bad practice IMHO. I hope your CC church see the light soon. God Bless

 

[justme6272]

In the church I attend there is an independent audit of the church finances by an accountancy firm, the full statement of accounts and the auditors report is available to all members and regular attending non members before the AGM. The AGM is not a rubber stamp exercise, there can be robust discussion and new decisions made. 1 Thessalonians 5:22 Avoid even the appearance of evil. Concealing financial information from members is at best bad practice IMHO. I hope your CC church see the light soon. God Bless

I don't know what AGM is. I must have missed it.

 

[lismore]

I don't know what AGM is. I must have missed it.

Annual general meeting. it's where the financial report is presented, new elders and deacons are elected, big decisions are voted on by the congregation and a time of prayer together for the gospel work of the church. God Bless

 

[Christfollower7]

I can't speak for certain churches and how they handle their money, but one thing I do know, we give as unto the Lord and not unto man. The Lord loves a cheerful giver and at the end of the day, year, our life, all that matters is that we gave as unto the Lord and to be seen by Him alone. What man does with that money, is entirely up to them. And if there is misuse of church tithes, there will be answering in Heaven for that, whether "Depart from Me, I never knew you" or having their works burned up in the fire, because their heart was wicked with greed.

Its not the congregant's position to sniff, question, or hold accountable what the elders, pastors, leaders do with the tithes. Tithing is a form of worship and if we give it faithfully, cheerfully, and appropriately, the Lord will reward as such (Malachi 3).

If there is fear or distrust of where the money might be going, then you are always welcome to leave the church.

But, no where in the Bible is there a call to worry about how tithing money is distributed. There are appropriate distributions of the tithing to various needy groups, but never a call for the Christian to investigate, speculate, or question.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Would you even attend a church where finances are held in secret and close to the vest

No.

I also think doctrine is important. If people paid more attention to doctrine and pick their churches according to accurate doctrine the world would be a better place. Pastors who scam wouldn't have people to scam anymore...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I can't speak for certain churches and how they handle their money, but one thing I do know, we give as unto the Lord and not unto man. The Lord loves a cheerful giver and at the end of the day, year, our life, all that matters is that we gave as unto the Lord and to be seen by Him alone. What man does with that money, is entirely up to them. And if there is misuse of church tithes, there will be answering in Heaven for that, whether "Depart from Me, I never knew you" or having their works burned up in the fire, because their heart was wicked with greed.

Its not the congregant's position to sniff, question, or hold accountable what the elders, pastors, leaders do with the tithes. Tithing is a form of worship and if we give it faithfully, cheerfully, and appropriately, the Lord will reward as such (Malachi 3).

If there is fear or distrust of where the money might be going, then you are always welcome to leave the church.

But, no where in the Bible is there a call to worry about how tithing money is distributed. There are appropriate distributions of the tithing to various needy groups, but never a call for the Christian to investigate, speculate, or question.

I have been the treasurer of two churches, and the policy has been to submit the accounts to the Management Meeting every month. After the end of the financial year, the accounts are audited by a chartered accountant. Doing it this way ensures that the accounts are above board and there is no "creative accounting" by any member of the leadership. The pastor or minister is not permitted to have any role or say in how the accounts are prepared and reported. Having the income and expenses of a church in a "secret box" opens the leadership up to embezzlement or other misuse of members' contributions. Frankly, I wouldn't trust a leadership that does not make the church accounts available each month to the members. I would would naturally think that there is something dodgy and dishonest going on there.

Often the problem happens in independent churches like the Life Church where the senior pastor has absolute authority and control, and no one has the opportunity to question the senior pastor's handling of the accounts.

 

[lismore]

Doing it this way ensures that the accounts are above board and there is no "creative accounting" by any member of the leadership.

Amen! The bible says: 1 Thessalonians 5:22 Avoid even the appearance of evil.

Doing everything in a transparent, open and honest way will remove even the possibility of someone making an accusation of impropriety. Wrongdoing, an accusation of wrongdoing and even the appearance of wrongdoing can rip a church apart.

God Bless

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Amen! The bible says: 1 Thessalonians 5:22 Avoid even the appearance of evil.

Doing everything in a transparent, open and honest way will remove even the possibility of someone making an accusation of impropriety. Wrongdoing, an accusation of wrongdoing and even the appearance of wrongdoing can rip a church apart.

God Bless

In New Zealand, a church to be a Registered Charity, our Charities Commission requires a financial return every year, due 31 December. This enables the church not to have to pay income tax. If the church fails to provide the information, it could be taken off the Register, which may cause the Inland Revenue Service to conduct an audit on the church's accounts, which may result in a hefty tax bill. Where a church does not provide monthly financial reports and is not subject to an annual audit by a Chartered Accountant, the IRD could require an audit of the accounts, and the leadership could be charged with tax avoidance.

 

[Christfollower7]

I have been the treasurer of two churches, and the policy has been to submit the accounts to the Management Meeting every month.

To each church their own! We cannot say that because your church handles money a certain way, it sets the precedent for all churches to follow suit. What one church establish as policy doesn't mean their way is the best.

However, every church should have good by-laws put in play with the handling of money or set dollar amounts. I am not against checks and balances...it is wise. Money is one of those areas that takes out a lot of pastors (along with pride and lust).

There is no Scripture that offers a clear way of handling church tithes with checks and balances.

We do see in Acts, where there was lying to the Holy Spirit in regards to the giving of tithes, like was the case with Ananias and Sapphira.

We must be very careful not to speculate, accuse, and judge another of embezzlement, fraud, or misuse of church tithes, when we have no evidence. Emotions and feelings are not good enough to say there is something wrong going on.

We should not give any place for the devil to establish a foothold.

And if there is something shady, dishonest going on, then Luke 8:17 kicks in, "For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light." The truth will find you out!

As far as the congregation knowing about where every dollar goes, I don't agree. Most churches are not congregational run. The congregation doesn't lead a church, but the Lord has appointed a shepherd and appropriate leaders and elders in a church to lead it.

I am not against churches sharing with the church where they are at financially with numbers reported. As fast as letting the church know the specifics (i.e. $5 was spent on water, $100 on a youth activity, $20 in postage stamps, $10 in light bulbs, $100 to hospitality, etc. etc. etc.), is just plain ridiculous.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

To each church their own! We cannot say that because your church handles money a certain way, it sets the precedent for all churches to follow suit. What one church establish as policy doesn't mean their way is the best.

However, every church should have good by-laws put in play with the handling of money or set dollar amounts. I am not against checks and balances...it is wise. Money is one of those areas that takes out a lot of pastors (along with pride and lust).

There is no Scripture that offers a clear way of handling church tithes with checks and balances.

We do see in Acts, where there was lying to the Holy Spirit in regards to the giving of tithes, like was the case with Ananias and Sapphira.

We must be very careful not to speculate, accuse, and judge another of embezzlement, fraud, or misuse of church tithes, when we have no evidence. Emotions and feelings are not good enough to say there is something wrong going on.

We should not give any place for the devil to establish a foothold.

And if there is something shady, dishonest going on, then Luke 8:17 kicks in, "For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light." The truth will find you out!

As far as the congregation knowing about where every dollar goes, I don't agree. Most churches are not congregational run. The congregation doesn't lead a church, but the Lord has appointed a shepherd and appropriate leaders and elders in a church to lead it.

I am not against churches sharing with the church where they are at financially with numbers reported. As fast as letting the church know the specifics (i.e. $5 was spent on water, $100 on a youth activity, $20 in postage stamps, $10 in light bulbs, $100 to hospitality, etc. etc. etc.), is just plain ridiculous.

I don't know what happens where you are, but in my country there are strict laws involving accounting standards in the use of public money. Our definition of public money is all income received from members of the public and donations from community organisations. We are required to keep financial records for seven years, and there are penalties for failing to account for income and expenditure.

Also, clear monthly reports of income and expenditure are necessary to protect those who are responsible or handling the money received and spent. If there are no records, then anyone can bring an accusation that the person handling the finances are stealing money, and there is no defence. But if questions arise concerning expenditure, especially if large amounts are spent, then being able to produce financial records to show exactly what was received and spent can show that the person handling the money is being honest. When the Sunday offering is counted, we have two people doing the counting, and the receipt of income is signed by both people.

For me, I would never give my money to a church or any other organisation where there are not strict accounting standards to ensure that everyone knows exactly what is received, and how the money is spent. It is just commonsense protection. If you are a person handling church money, and you have no accurate records and someone made a complaint to the police fraud squad, you could find yourself having to defend yourself in court. Even if you are innocent, having to make a statement to the police, hire a lawyer and stand up in court charged with fraud, could be quite a stressful experience for you. If anyone made a complaint about the finances in my church, all I have to do is produce the monthly reports, and the audited accounts for the year, which would clearly show that every single cent was accounted for. Every invoice payment or reimbursement has to be recorded and approved by two people and these payments are presented to the Management Committee each month and further approved by them. Running a tight ship financially is the best protection against fraud. It is when accounting procedures are lax that fraud can happen and a church can lose a lot of money through people putting their hands in the offering bag, and spending church money unwisely without proper supervsion.

 

[Christfollower7]

I don't know what happens where you are, but in my country there are strict laws involving accounting standards in the use of public money.

I live in the USA! And yes, IRS requires records to be kept 7 years (the IRS can technically go back 10 years or I think indefinitely, if fraud is found).

What I respond in this thread has nothing to do with accountability or governmental regulations...that is common sense, if you are going to run a non-profit organization. And yes, there should be accountability within the orgnization with how tithes are processed and how money is spent. Board approvals are always (should be) required for large financial transactions.

My arguments is for the average congregant, who is not involved in church government, to sin sniff or fruit inspect! God has not called us to go around sin sniffing or fruit inspecting to make sure every legalistic items is followed to a science. I am always lerey of legalisim! The Apostle Paul wrote about that heavily in his letters; especially when it came to circumcision. I don't find anywhere in Scripture a call for the congregation to be made aware of ever penny that is spent in the church. What I do read is how the congregation is suppose to give cheerfully and not let the left hand know what the right hand is doing...to give in secret, because that is where the Lord will reward you. I don't see anywhere in the Word, where God calls the congregation to worry about how church tithes are spent.

There are provisions for widows, who meet the Scriptural criteria. Might I add, that IRS regulations allow for giving members to view the books at any given time, if they are concerned about fraud and how their money is being spent. We have that in our by-laws at a church.

The problem comes with finger pointing, sin sniffing, fault finding, fruit inspecting! I find that there are those who go around always trying to find fault, always skeptic, critical, pessmistic of everyone and anyone, instead of pouring one's gifts, talents, and prayers before others in the church. That is where the Lord's heart lies! Let the Lord deal with any dishonesty that is going on behind the scenes! And if you have valid proof of something fraudlent, you have a duty to bring that up! Speak the truth, but in love. If the authorities need to be alerted, I am not against that!

Jim Bakker, Kent Hovind, and Sun Myung Moon all were tried and found guilty of fraudulent activities. We live in a wicked world and greed in the church is at an all time high! I think it is disgusting at how much certain pastors and evangelist get paid. Even if something is hidden on this side of eternity, I guarantee you that it will not on the Day of Judgement. Many will the Lord say "I never knew you! Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity!"

 

[Christfollower7]

They began to refuse to debate him, and instead an attack was orchestrated just to shut him down, at one time or maybe even a decade.

I followed the Kent Hovind story religiously! He is not a good guy at all! I thought there was a conspiracy of the government to target him, but you can read all about his constant challenges, manipulations, lying, cheating, fraud, and physical violence against his estranged wife.

He received many charges and has spent many years in prison. The truth will find you out and the government does not bare the sword in vain!

Read Kent's story here: Kent Hovind - Wikipedia

Truly sad...and so many others! The biggest jokester of them all is Kenneth Copeland! He is straight from the pit of hell! I watch a video yesterday of him cutting his hand, along with another person, pouring "his blood" into a communion cup, along with the other individual, and then drinking it like a vampire before the congregation and claiming this is right before God in placing His blood and our blood together in communion!

Talk about taking communion in an unholy manner!