How can you financially support a church whose finances are in a secret black box?

justme6272

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I was raised Southern Baptist, where an annual 'Business Meeting' was held once a year or so to print up a budget to be voted on by formal church members who felt like showing up on a Wednesday night. Deacons (and budget committee members when there was such a committee assigned), decided what to present to the body for a vote, and those who showed up rubber stamped it with very little discussion, if any. Deacons lived in the city and were committed members of the church. (Deacons also did hiring, and would 'present' a new head pastor to be voted on after everyone got to hear them preach once, but the vote was just a formality. Everyone trusted that the deacons were hiring the right guy). Total budgeted salaries might be listed, and things like budgets for various ministries, expected maintenance, etc. If a formal MEMBER wanted to know something in more detail, like the pastor or other staff member's salary, they could probably get it, and would probably be frowned upon as nosey. Some churches even print the YTD giving in the weekly church bulletin where it can be seen if the church is over or under budget as the year progresses.

Then I came across the Calvary Chapel way of doing things. There aren't any nominated and elected deacons. There are 'board' members made up of the pastor's friends, not voted on by anyone. Formal church membership is non-existent. In the case of a founding pastor, both in and out of the Calvary Chapel franchise (denomination, or whatever it is, I'm not sure), they aren't accountable to deacons or members who could vote to fire them. ("You can't fire me....this church wouldn't exist if it weren't for me!")

I'm seeing more than one Calvary Chapel where the son of the founding pastor is hired as an assistant, likely to take over once the founder retires, never nominated or voted on by anyone but the board (the pastor's few hand-picked friends). How convenient.

I'm not sure what authorization is needed, if any, for a church to start up and call themselves 'Calvary Chapel' but I suspect nothing. I don't think the words 'Calvary' or 'Chapel' are copyrighted or trademarked in any way. Even if they were, some are changing their names to just 'Calvary Church' which of course anyone could use, just like 'Church of the Redeemer,' 'Church of the Cross,' 'Hope Church,' 'Christ Church,' etc.

Many people blindly give to churches of all types, not knowing to what extent money is really needed, and that's what I have a problem with. What are the church's assets and liabilities? Budget? Receipts? Is there $20 in the church coffers, or $20 million? When I saw the endowment for the morman church, I almost fell out of my chair. They wouldn't need my money even if I wanted to give it to them. I can only hope that they don't still make appeals for money when they've managed to accumulate enough to do anything they want but haven't chosen to spend it. Hopefully, most people are wisely selective in their donations to any church or 501(c3) 'worthy cause.' Too many give just because there's an appeal for money made from the pulpit, for whatever need, specific or otherwise. If a pastor were confronted about the lack of transparency, they would likely get defensive and say, "this is how we do it, if you have a problem with it, don't give." How can they get away with that? Because they can! There will be plenty of people willing to totally trust one man, (or a small board of overseeing men who don't even live in the same town or attend the church), to stay on top of things.

I'm aware of the IRS form 990 for non-profits, but the ones I've seen online are years old if you're lucky enough to find one, and they are very limited in the information they provide.

Everyone who has any assets should have a will, even if it's just a house, car, or some personal possessions, if you want to make sure your wishes are carried out. Wouldn't you want to give to benefit, either now or in the hereafter, to things where your money can be used in ways where there is really a need, without paying absurd administration costs? I don't know how anyone can determine who that would be if the non-profit is a secret black box, and I suspect a lot of non-profits are set up with friends and family as the 'board' who decided how much their friend or family member's salary and benefits package will consist of. I even know of non-profits who constantly put out appeals in the community for volunteers...the less they have to pay people to work, the more the board can pay the CEO and other staff of the non-profit. Not sure how much the board members get paid, but either way, the people running the organization have a nice little enterprise going on. Sometimes I can't believe what the IRS lets non-profits get away with. Imagine the nations largest Christian radio station, a non-profit, giving salaries of over $200K to many of their management staff. Would they be paying all those people all that money if it weren't a 'non-profit?' I doubt it. Too many non-profits appear to pad the pockets of a good-ole-boy (or gal) network instead of shareholders.

Given the concerns listed above, how would YOU go about deciding whom to give to, either while alive or through a will? Would you even attend a church where finances are held in secret and close to the vest? Would you give anyway, at least paying what you GUESSED was your share of utilities, regardless of how much the church did or didn't need money to keep the lights on? Could you see yourself attending but not giving, or would you only attend one with greater transparency? I keep hearing churches talk about how much COVID has hurt them with attendance down as much as 50%, but never any appeals for money needed to 'keep the lights on' or 'prevent the doors from being closed.' So where is their stash? How are they making it?

I suspect that some churches are getting rich off their radio ministries if the pastor is popular enough. How does listener inspired giving affect the bottom line? Your guess is as good as mine. It's part of their black box.

I once asked a pastor friend, "What keeps a pastor's salary from consisting of whatever he can get OUT OF, whoever he can get INTO, a building?" His answer...."nothing. In fact there's a guy here in town who does exactly that."
 
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I was raised Southern Baptist, where an annual 'Business Meeting' was held once a year or so to print up a budget to be voted on by formal church members who felt like showing up on a Wednesday night. Deacons (and budget committee members when there was such a committee assigned), decided what to present to the body for a vote, and those who showed up rubber stamped it with very little discussion, if any. Deacons lived in the city and were committed members of the church. (Deacons also did hiring, and would 'present' a new head pastor to be voted on after everyone got to hear them preach once, but the vote was just a formality. Everyone trusted that the deacons were hiring the right guy). Total budgeted salaries might be listed, and things like budgets for various ministries, expected maintenance, etc. If a formal MEMBER wanted to know something in more detail, like the pastor or other staff member's salary, they could probably get it, and would probably be frowned upon as nosey. Some churches even print the YTD giving in the weekly church bulletin where it can be seen if the church is over or under budget as the year progresses.

Then I came across the Calvary Chapel way of doing things. There aren't any nominated and elected deacons. There are 'board' members made up of the pastor's friends, not voted on by anyone. Formal church membership is non-existent. In the case of a founding pastor, both in and out of the Calvary Chapel franchise (denomination, or whatever it is, I'm not sure), they aren't accountable to deacons or members who could vote to fire them. ("You can't fire me....this church wouldn't exist if it weren't for me!")

Many people blindly give to churches of all types, not knowing to what extent money is really needed, and that's what I have a problem with. What are the church's assets and liabilities? Budget? Receipts? Is there $20 in the church coffers, or $20 million? When I saw the endowment for the morman church, I almost fell out of my chair. They wouldn't need my money even if I wanted to give it to them. I can only hope that they don't still make appeals for money when they've managed to accumulate enough to do anything they want. Hopefully, most people are wisely selective in their donations to any church or 501(c3) 'worthy cause.' Too many give just because there's an appeal for money made from the pulpit, for whatever need, specific or otherwise. If a pastor were confronted about the lack of transparency, they would likely get defensive and say, "this is how we do it, if you have a problem with it, don't give." How can they get away with that? Because they can! There will be plenty of people willing to totally trust one man, (or a small board of overseeing men who don't even live in the same town or attend the church), to stay on top of things.

I'm aware of the IRS form 990 for non-profits, but the ones I've seen online are years old if you're lucky enough to find one, and they are very limited in the information they provide.

Everyone who has any assets should have a will, even if it's just a house, car, or some personal possessions, if you want to make sure your wishes are carried out. Wouldn't you want to give to benefit either now or in the hereafter, to things were your money can be used in ways where there is really a need, without paying absurd administration costs? I don't know how anyone can determine who that would be if the non-profit is a secret black box, and I suspect a lot of non-profits are set up with friends and family as the 'board' who decided how much their friend or family member's salary and benefits package will consist of. I even know of non-profits who constantly put out appeals in the community for volunteers...the less they have to pay people to work, the more the board can pay the CEO and other staff of the non-profit. Not sure how much the board members get paid, but either way, the people running the organization have a nice little profit going on.

Given the concerns listed above, how would YOU go about deciding whom to give to, either while alive or through a will? Would you even attend a church where finances are held in secret and close to the vest? Would you give anyway, at least paying what you GUESSED was your share of utilities, regardless of how much the church did or didn't need money to keep the lights on? Could you see yourself attending but not giving, or would you only attend one with greatly transparency? I keep hearing churches talk about how much COVID has hurt them with attendance down as much as 50%, but never any appeals for money needed to 'keep the lights on' or 'prevent the doors from being closed.'

I suspect that some churches are getting rich off their radio ministries if the pastor is popular enough. How does listener inspired giving affect the bottom line? Your guess is as good as mine. It's part of their black box.
I was the treasurer for my Presbyterian church for 20 years. Each month I presented an income and expenditure report to our Board of Managers. Each year, we had an audit by local accounting firm not affiliated to the church. This enabled us to have an independent audit of our accounts. This assured our members that the funds they contributed to the church were used properly and according to the law covering accounting standards.

I have heard of independent churches where the finances are control solely by the church pastor and nothing reported to the congregation and no independent audit done. There is a large church in Auckland with branches in provincial centres where the members' contributions are not audited, and the self appointed "bishop" rents a very large mansion of a house, his wife has a very expensive Range Rover, and he has a collection of Harley Davidson motorcycles. He is paid a salary more or less equal to the Chief Executive Officers of major local companies. Some say he gets paid more than our Prime Minister! I would never give any money to churches like that.

Anyway, if I was going to "tithe", I would give the money to some of the homeless people in our city so they could get a decent meal and a change of clothes. That would be better use of the money than lining the pockets of a greedy self-appoint pastor or "bishop". There are no instructions in the Bible that say we should give 10% of our income to prop up a church organisation that doesn't have good accounting standards. But there are clear guidelines to show that true religion is to support widows and orphans. Of course, there is nothing wrong with contributing to our local church to help pay for the everyday costs of maintaining the church property, keeping the power switched on, paying the wages of the church secretary, and the pastor's salary based on an appropriate pay scale agreed on by the Board of Managers, or Deacons. I think that every church member has the right to know how their contributions are being used and to demand monthly income and expenditure reports, plus a yearly audit of accounts. If these are not forthcoming, then members should withhold further contributions until these reports are put in place.
 
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justme6272

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If these are not forthcoming, then members should withhold further contributions until these reports are put in place.
Then the pastor shouldn't get mad if you keep showing up, while 'withholding further contributions,'...all the while no doubt wondering why you never give.

Another thing that troubles me which I didn't mention, is that there are offshoot ministries of a church who appear to be doing good things, but will never know that lack of transparency is preventing people who otherwise might give from doing so. I couldn't quite muster up the guts to tell this to them. Again, I would likely be met with, "then don't give," if they say anything at all. What amazes me is how anyone wouldn't be able to figure this out on their own. OF COURSE there are going to be people who want to see some numbers, and SURELY they realize this, and realize that such people may not donate because of their decisions not to disclose. So do I really need to tell them that? They should know it already. I can only guess that they figure their bottom line is enhanced more in the long run by doing it the way they do.
 
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Then the pastor shouldn't get mad if you keep showing up, but 'withhold further contributions,'...all the while no doubt wondering why you never give.

Another thing that troubles me which I didn't mention, is that there are offshoot ministries of a church who appear to be doing good things, but will never know that lack of transparency is preventing people who otherwise might give from doing so. I couldn't quite muster up the guts to tell this to them. Again, I would likely be met with, "then don't give," if they say anything at all. What amazes me is how anyone wouldn't be able to figure this out on their own. OF COURSE there are going to be people who want to see some numbers, and SURELY they realize this, and realize that such people may not donate because of their decisions not to disclose. So do I really need to tell them that? They should know it already. I can only guess that they figure their bottom line is enhanced more in the long run by doing it the way they do.
There is a law in New Zealand that charities that receive funds from members are to provide monthly reports of income and expenditure, and have their accounts audited once a year. The Charities Commission require it in order for an organisation to remain a Registered Charity and not have to pay tax on their income. Any member of an organisation, including a church, can require that their contribution is used for the purpose, and if that member believes that money is being misappropriated, he or she can file a complaint with the Serious Fraud Squad of the New Zealand Police, in order that an investigation is carried out.

No church is above the law. If members' funds are being misused or going missing without proper accounting, then that is fraud, and members have the right to call the management of the church out on it and demand that every dollar is accounted for.
 
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Gary K

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justme6272

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Each month I presented an income and expenditure report to our Board of Managers. This assured our members that the funds they contributed to the church were used properly and according to the law covering accounting standards.
Did the members get a copy, or just the Board of Managers? 'Used properly' is subjective, but at least they could see the numbers and decide for themselves.
 
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I don't know why people are surprised by such shenanigans. Our government does the exact same thing even though our Constitution requires transparency. Our public finances are nothing but a big black box. Nothing we hear about government finances can be confirmed.

FASAB Statement 56: Understanding New Government Financial Accounting Loopholes
Maybe in a large country like the United States, accounting for every dollar may be difficult, but in a smaller country like New Zealand, several million dollars going missing from the public purse is front page news. Even if a political candidate in an election receives even a few dollars above the campaign contributions they are allowed by law, there is a serious investigation. New Zealand accounting laws are very strict and I am regularly reading news reports of incidents of misappropriation of funds and various frauds. No one gets away with much down here!
 
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justme6272

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I don't know why people are surprised by such shenanigans.
I'm trying to figure out why people go along with such shenanigans, other than naive trust in their fearless leader who happens to have some Bible knowledge and a gift for gab.
 
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Did the members get a copy, or just the Board of Managers? 'Used properly' is subjective, but at least they could see the numbers and decide for themselves.
Once the accounts have been presented to the Board of Managers in their monthly meeting, and have been included in the meeting minutes, they become public documents available to any member of the church. As the church treasurer I had no problem showing any member our income and expenditure reports on request. At our Annual General Meeting, the yearly accounts are presented to all the members present, and any member has the opportunity and freedom to question any expenditure that seems excessive, or not commensurate with the budget. As a result, all our members have been assured over the 20 years I was treasurer that their contributions were used for the correct purpose. Every item of expenditure was covered by an invoice or a cash receipt, and the accounting records were kept for an additional seven years in case of an Inland Revenue audit. The ministers' salaries were recorded in payroll software detailing annual salary, housing allowance, etc, and the Inland Revenue PAYE report was sent every month. Every dollar used by our church was locked down according to our strict accounting and tax laws.

Misappropriation of funds can happen only if the accounting rules are not applied, and proper controls are not put in place.
 
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SkyWriting

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Many people blindly give to churches of all types, not knowing to what extent money is really needed, and that's what I have a problem with.

But it's not your problem.

I don't give to charities that own a building. It's a simpler system.

Once a ministry gets a building, then they need staff, ....then a kitchen, then a chef, then they start sponsoring retreats away from the building...etc.
 
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justme6272

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Easy... just who are you giving to? The out side of man may look beautiful pure yet the heart is evil. I give to God not man.
I was giving to a black box but I quit. It's sad cause I like the people in the church and don't want to see them taken advantage of. But it's their money. I've known people who were ruined and ended up in homeless shelters because they couldn't handle the responsibility of money. I see news stories of elderly being preyed upon and bilked for their life's savings and want to strangle the perpetrator.
How do you give to God, not man?
 
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Tolworth John

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Would you even attend a church where finances are held in secret and close to the vest?

It is a good question to ask when considering regularly attending or joining a church.

How open are they about finance.

I would not regularly attend a church where nothing is known about how the offering is spent.
 
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justme6272

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My congregation's finances are fully transparent to everyone. On occasion I've even seen them posted in the churches service bulletins.
Have you seen a balance sheet? What was the largest tally of assets, liabilities, and equity you ever saw? If you've never known or had the chance to know, then I don't know how that constitutes 'fully transparent.'
 
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Tigger45

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Have you seen a balance sheet? What was the largest tally of assets, liabilities, and equity you ever saw? If you've never known or had the chance to know, then I don't know how that constitutes 'fully transparent.'
Yes but let me be clear my current congregation is not with Calvary chapel. Sorry if that caused any misleading.
 
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I'd look mostly at what the church was actually doing for the mission, for its members, and for the community.

If it was doing enough, I wouldn't worry about transparency. Is it better to fulfill the mission without transparency, or to be transparent and fail the mission?
 
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justme6272

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I'd look mostly at what the church was actually doing for the mission, for its members, and for the community.

If it was doing enough, I wouldn't worry about transparency. Is it better to fulfill the mission without transparency, or to be transparent and fail the mission?
Good point, but would you give them your money?
 
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justme6272

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Why, then, if they were accomplishing the mission with their money, I not be a part of that effort?
Because they didn't need it and you wanted to give to something that needed it. Some 'churches' have huge endowments of millions they have built up over the years. Still appealing for more. Also, they may be barely accomplishing their mission while spending lavishly on things you aren't allowed to know about and would never condone.
 
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