How Can You Escape the Damnation of Hell?

[jbarcher]

So infinite punishment for the "crime" of being born a human being is NOT unfair? Do you believe that ANYTHING is unfair?

It's funny how you frame this, as you completely ignore free will and the issue of sin. I suggest you actually find out what Christianity is about--not some caricture one might find, then come back before you masquerade as one. I have no problem with people giving their opinion on an aspect of Christianity, but I do have a problem with people claiming to be Christian yet they are not.

You want to know what's unfair, O attempter of rhetoric? A holy and perfect God, who's creation has rebelled against Him, a holy and perfect God who sends His only Son to die for that very same creation that rebels. That's what's unfair. I know you've seen a cross; that may even be why you come so confident in your judgments. Yet I doubt that you have even one inkling of what the cross means, and what happened there. I suggest you find out.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Hell will be full of those who chose to serve themselves rather than God. Those in heaven will be the ones who chose to surrender their wills to God, and obey His commandments. Everyone Has the same freewill choice so it has nothing to do with whats fair, it has to do with what will you choose to do.

Curt, have you surrendered your will, (never serving yourself) and do you obey His commandments?

 

[BradtheImpaler]

It's funny how you frame this, as you completely ignore free will and the issue of sin.

I ignore them because they are diversions. According to your beliefs -

a) all sinners deserve hell
b) all human beings will sin

let's add the missing ingredient...

c) no one asked to be born

Where's the "free will" in the human race being born essentially hellbound?


You: >I suggest you actually find out what Christianity is about--not some caricture one might find, then come back before you masquerade as one. <

I'm trying to find out what Christianity is about, from Christians. Thus far I am immediately perplexed that folks who not only believe in the existence of eternal conscious torment, but also that everyone is deserving of such a fate, and that most people will end up there (most probably some of their family and friends also) would choose forum labels for themselves like "Goodnews" and "SweetSoulSong". (Do you see the humour in this? No, I guess not)

You: >I have no problem with people giving their opinion on an aspect of Christianity, but I do have a problem with people claiming to be Christian yet they are not.

Maybe I'm on the wrong forum. I'm not claiming to be a Christian, certainly not a "fundie" at least. But what is interesting is that all I have done is challenge the generally understood doctrine of hell and immediately, to you, I cannot be a Christian at all? I wasn't aware that a belief in endless torment was what saved one?

You: >You want to know what's unfair, O attempter of rhetoric? A holy and perfect God, who's creation has rebelled against Him, a holy and perfect God who sends His only Son to die for that very same creation that rebels<

The even more basic question that comes to mind here is not just is such a scenario fair or unfair, but does it even make sense? God's creation rebels against Him, (which He knew they would even before He created them and which one wouldn't even have to be omniscient to predict because creating an intelligent creature with it's own free will is a built in guarantee that said creature will "rebel" - i.e. exercise their free will) and God sends His Son to die for that creation (yet the majority of that creation will not end up redeemed anyway, which God knew at the beginning, which makes the whole affair a disaster for most people who have ever been born and also a disaster for God, if God is a God of love)

You: >That's what's unfair. I know you've seen a cross; that may even be why you come so confident in your judgments. Yet I doubt that you have even one inkling of what the cross means, and what happened there. I suggest you find out.

<

And I doubt you have thought this whole thing through - I used to answer folks like me like you do now, until I really got to thinking

 

[JVD]

I must have really missed it.

It seemed to me that Goodnewsinc was advocating a type of universalism. He is saying that no one goes to hell. All people go to heaven.

The Devil and his demons go to hell but no people.

Then he gets castigated by the impaler for advocating eternal torment??

Did I miss it totally??

 

[jbarcher]

Brad,

I guess you didn't read the Rules. I deliberately called your game, because you are playing one, and need to know.

[noco]

When you masquarade as a Christian (as your faith icon is set as one), are you not lying? As a moderator, I ask you to change your icon to either atheist or agnostic, as that is what you most sound like. But whatever you change it to, it may not be an icon that allows you to post in CO forums.

I'll be happy to continue discussion with you, and explain to you why your framing fails in your allegedly honest attempt to "find out what Christianity is about". Indicators show that you are more interested in finding some point to attack Christianity, rather than finding it out. Think you can be honest? Drop your arguments from outburst, and start listening.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

SweetSoulSong,

You're right, I guess I didn't read the rules carefully enough. I do have a bit of an aversion to being categorized, (as I readily admit I'm not sure what I believe about everything at this time) but if you feel I need to be categorized, and you feel I "sound like" an agnostic/atheist, I will change the icon and participate in the restricted forums if that's what it takes.

(oh, by the way, the word "Catholic" in the Athanasian creed DOES mean the Roman Catholic Church - at least it did when it was written)

 

[goodnewsinc]

Isaiah 45:21. Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Isaiah 66:22. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

Revelation 5: 13. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Isaiah 55:8. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10. For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11. So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Romans 3:3. For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 4. God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Matthew 4:4. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

John 17:17. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

John,
GOOD NEWS, Inc.

 

[nb_christseeker]

i think he's trying to waste everyone's time and cause confusion.
John 3 sums up what Jesus is trying to do very nicely, and it would not be a bad idea to memorize it. i haven't, but i'd like to! =) its good stuff, and makes it clear that 'not all dogs go to heaven'.

 

[nb_christseeker]

also john, try to spend a little more time LOVING people with your actions/posts than just posting verse after random verse. Even the devil quoted verses, but God always beats the devil.

Take a moment John, breathe, relax, clear your mind, and just read through the new testament from beginning to end. Take some time on each sentence to just kinda absorb it. Put them all together, in sequence, and it tells a more accurate picture. Matthew, Luke, John, and Mark did not randomly throw lines in about Jesus, they made a narrative, for a reason. Its not just each line that is telling, but the whole story as it unfolds.

Until you do this, why not post something about your own life, or about how much you love the brothers, or about what a beautiful day God has created today?

But its important that you do some fresh reading from start to end.

 

[goodnewsinc]

You cannot "direct my path"! Are you aware of that?

Psalm 23:3. He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Proverbs 3:3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Any servant of God MUST NOT FAIL to speak God's Words exactly as He speaks them!

Jeremiah 23: 28. The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord. 29. Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

John,
GOOD NEWS, Inc.

 

[Motor City Christian]

*MOD HAT ON*

I am watching this thread closely. Please behave yourself. I am making a general statement and not pointing out anyone in particular. However, I am noticing the tone of this thread is becoming a little too heated. So, let's calm down and have a good discussion.
*MOD HAT OFF*

Personally, I think we need to keep in mind that we are all sinners, but God provides salvation. Romans 6:23b says "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". I'll admit that I prefer a fire and brimestone teacher. I think there is far too much feel God Christianity out there today. I have a ton of respect for those who point out sin and even more for those pastors and ministers who preach about sins within the church. However, God allows a personal relationship with him. We are saved if we accept Christ's death on the cross as payment for our sins! But we can't stop living for God. He commands us to spread the gospel. We need to see the whole picture.

 

[deg]

Goodnews, brother...

I was birthed down in Texas, and the people I have had the pleasure of fellowshipping with down there are believers in the Restitution of All Things. I have been born into that atmosphere, and have spoken it to many a person including these boards. Let me start by saying that your messages aren't very readable or understandable. You are speaking out of a certain spirit and coming with a certain perspective which many simply do not share. You make it sound like you are speaking to people who already share your beliefs, and it does not facilitate the progression of truth into a life. Simple is good. This medium for communication is dangerously touchy.

Let me also say that you preach the message with good research and some interesting points. Some of the strongest ones for me: 1 Tim 4:10. Acts 3:21. Isaiah 25.

But here is where the rubber "meats" the road:

Heb 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

This doctrine is dangerous for weaker Christians, and infinitely dangerous for non-Christians. Do not make your faith cause others to stumble. This message does not produce a healthy condition for natural Kingdom growth; if you try to put such large fruit on a small or weaker tree, you will break it, and it will die. I'm sure you can imagine the problems this doctrine creates in a heart which thirsts and hungers after righteousness, therefore be conscious of your words. Do not cause one of these little ones to stumble, because the punishment is worth its weight in Kingdom Gold.

On another note, I have been really worked by the coming judgement upon man. It is terrible, horrifying, the depths of sin which have reached into man's heart. There is something you could preach which would be far more effective and edifying.

 

[goodnewsinc]

What will you do with this?

Jeremiah 23:28. Let the prophet who has a dream tell the dream, but let him who has my word speak my word faithfully. What has straw in common with wheat? says the Lord. 29. Is not my word like fire, says the Lord, and like a hammer which breaks the rock in pieces?

Ezekiel 2:3. And he said to me, "Son of man, I send you to the people of Israel, to a nation of rebels, who have rebelled against me; they and their fathers have transgressed against me to this very day. 4. The people also are impudent and stubborn: I send you to them; and you shall say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God.' 5. And whether they hear or refuse to hear (for they are a rebellious house) they will know that there has been a prophet among them. 6. And you, son of man, be not afraid of them, nor be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns are with you and you sit upon scorpions; be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, for they are a rebellious house. 7. And you shall speak my words to them, whether they hear or refuse to hear; for they are a rebellious house. 8. "But you, son of man, hear what I say to you; be not rebellious like that rebellious house; open your mouth, and eat what I give you."

Isaiah 40:1. COMFORT, COMFORT my people, says your God. 2. Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, and cry to her that her warfare is ended, that her iniquity is pardoned, that she has received from the Lord's hand double for all her sins.

Isaiah 52:7. How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him who brings good tidings, who publishes peace, who brings good tidings of good, who publishes salvation, who says to Zion, "Your God reigns." 8. Hark, your watchmen lift up their voice, together they sing for joy; for eye to eye they see the return of the Lord to Zion.

2 Corinthians 5:18. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19. that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Proverbs 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

I understand my orders from my Father! Do you really expect me to follow you and let YOU DIRECT MY PATH?

John,
GOOD NEWS, Inc.

 

[nb_christseeker]

I love Jesus! I love Jesus! Lord come quickly!

 

[deg]

I understand my orders from my Father! Do you really expect me to follow you and let YOU DIRECT MY PATH?

Simply because we have received understanding does not mean we have been sent. What a folly! No, nor would our Lord speak a Word which would damage the saplings of His orchard. "I have many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them." Jesus knew there were things His disciples would not hear, in fact, they would likely have broken their branches. Does that mean He still preached willy nilly, with unreserved declaration? Goodness NO! I will no longer go and preach the deep things in the marketplace. It does no one any good. Tell me, honestly, how does this Word do ANYONE ANY GOOD? How does it edify the body? How do you know there aren't athiests on board, reading your words? "Great, this guy is preaching universalist stuff. That means I get in without any effort at all" which is completely false. When that has happened, you have caused some to stumble, and the blood is upon your head.

Paul himself says that we musn't let our faith cause others to stumble!! He understood the guiding hand of God better than any, and still said that we must watch what we say in accordance with who is listening. Some truths are not to be spoken until certain times, into certain hearts.

Those prophets you quoted were given messages of coming judgement that they were to declare to the nation of ISRAEL. Judgement is coming brother, for sure, before ANY restorative move of God, but you have not spoken of it one inch. You will confuse many.

 

[goodnewsinc]

My message is for those with eyes to see and hears to hear. Those who lack those things will oppose! Do you not know that "Israel" (a prince of God) is all His sons and daughters, since He is King of Kings and Lord of lords? Every human son is a "Prince of God"! And you can afford to LEARN something you lack!

Acts 17:24. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25. Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26. And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27. That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28. For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Hosea 1:10. Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.


Welcome to DAYLIGHT!

John,
GOOD NEWS, Inc.

 

[goodnewsinc]

I am noticing the ages of you vocal responders, and you are all young bloods! That is OK ... but you have a lot to learn!

John,
GOOD NEWS, Inc.

 

[deg]

So tell me then, brother, how does all this restoration take place? Through what procedure and time period? I suppose I have full license to sin and do as I will, because all men are justified in God's eyes, and no act will prevent my finality as a son. Many are called, but all are chosen, that sounds right. I suppose all the false prophets will be on the thrones with me, right alongside the apostles.

Goodnews, can you tell me what purpose the NT word "olethros" holds? What is the Lord talking about when He talks about "kolasis"? What do those words represent to you?

 

[goodnewsinc]

Psalm 90:9. For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told. 10. The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

Isaiah 40:29. He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength. 30. Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall: 31. But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

Ecclesiastes 12:7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 15:51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Revelation 6:9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (This is where "alteration" or change takes place).

Luke 20: 36. Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37. Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. 39. Then certain of the scribes answering said, Master, thou hast well said.

If any of this displeases YOU, then take your protest to the Father-Son team since salvation is specifically "their designated work"! Let me know how it goes!

John,
GOOD NEWS, Inc.