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How can you be sure that you are one of the elect?

LittleLion

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How do you know that your (perceived) faith is not just wishful thinking?

How do you know that you are not just deluding yourself, and the perceived answers to your prayers are something that would have happened anyway?

It is up to God to decide whether you are part of His flock or not. Just because you wish to be part of God's flock doesn't make you part of God's flock.

How can you be sure that YOU are one of the elect?
 

kamikat

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ReBjorn said:
The Bible says that no one can come to God unless God has called him.
We believe what we cannot see, and blessed are those that do so.
And the Holy Spirit is given as a gift, to guide us on the way.

Why would God create people what He would condem to hell? If He is the one that chooses, then it's not our fault if we don't believe, right? Does that mean he created me as a skeptic or doubter? Does that mean that He condems me because of the way He created me?

kamikat
 
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ReBjorn

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I'm not actually too good at these things, so I hope someone else may answer your questions.

I think Rafael made a very good post the other day though, here it is:

 
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seekingpurity047

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Obviously, this post is against calvinists.

First thing's first, I guess I have to go through the whole TULIP with you on this one *sigh*.

T - Total Depravity
U - Unconditional Election
L - Limited Atonement
I - Irresistable Grace
P - Perseverance of the Saints

To begin, Total Depravity: Man is totally depraved in their sins, and cannot get themselves out on their own. It's impossible. What many people refuse to see is that unbelief is a sin in itself, and without faith, you can't do anything good. "Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin" Rom 14:23 (ESV). We, as humans, want nothing to do with God, naturally, because of our total depravity. We are so locked on in our sins that we have no desire for Him. We, naturally because of our sin nature, want nothing to do with God. "For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened." Rom 1:21 (ESV). That would explain why God said "Hey, you want to keep going against me, fine" Of course, God surely was weeping when He did that, because He cares about human beings, and loves them all. "Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen." Rom 1:24-25 (ESV).

"None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."
13"Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive."
"The venom of asps is under their lips."
14"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16in their paths are ruin and misery,
17and the way of peace they have not known."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes." Rom 3:10-18

We need to notice that Faith is a good thing. All good things are from God, and good things only begin with faith in the Son of God. If man is totally depraved in his sin, how can he get himself out? Clearly, he can't, becuase he can't do anything good, which includes coming into faith in Christ.

Unconditional Election: When it comes to our election, it is totally unconditional. It's not a matter of foreknowledge of God, or anyhting of the sort. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether God knows that some people will come to faith in Him, and others won't, and it has totally nothing to do with works.

9For this is what the promise said: "About this time next year I will return and Sarah shall have a son." 10And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call-- 12she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Rom 9:9-13

Clearly, God did this to fulfill His purpose of election, and God still does this today. "George I loved, but Ben I hated."

Limited Atonement: This one is a toughy, and even I sometimes have a hard time accepting this one. It involves Christ's atonement for sins up on thecross. Who's sins did He cover? Clearly, not everyone's, becuase people are still going to hell (according to scriptures) becuase they don't have faith in Christ (of course, many universal salvationists will totally disregard this one, however, universal salvation isn't biblical at all).

whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Rom 3:25-26

Jesus justifies those taht have faith in Christ, not those who do not have faith in Christ, for they are totally depraved, and seek to pursue their selfish desires. If Christ died for everyone, according to the bible you cannot say that He saved everyone on the cross, but instead made everyone savable. But that is out of the question, becuase then the purpose of atonement would be pointless."I lay down my life for the sheep." John 10:15. Jesus laid down His life for His people, namely the children of God, the ones that He has chosen.

Now, I'm sure many of you are saying "But what about the whole "Whole world" issues?" The whole world doesn't mean the whole world, you need to put into context to whom is the letter written, etc etc. For instance, let's take the first letter of John

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2

I couldn't agree with that verse more, since it all has to do with context. John wrote this letter to a small group, and when he meant the whole world, he meant other people outside of their small group. As simple as that.

Irresistable Grace: This doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, for it surely can be. It's all over the bible. However, this irresistable grace means that God can overcome all resistances, becuase He is totally sovereign.

"all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, "What have you done?" Dan 4:35

So, you see, God does everything according to His will, not ours. And you say "But what is His will then? To send peopel to hell and some to heaven?" Definitely not. His will is that His glory be revealed to the ends of the earth. That people will know that He is the Lord. Read Exodus, it gives you a good idea of what God's will is. "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD." And they did so." Ex 14:4

As for the last criteria, perseverance of the saints. I think taht pretyt much says it all. Everyone who is truly called will pursue Christ, because God makes every obstacle work out for their perseverance in the faith.

So, why does God have some go to heaven and some go to hell? Simple answer, His glory. He is glorified through everything and everyone, whether they be believers or not. You may not be able to see that, but it's true. And the people will know that He is the LORD.

Sincerely,

Randy
 
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Adstar

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If one can conform to the below statement one is of the elect.

Romans 10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”(that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

If one cannot conform to the above statement one is not of the elect.

I am a part of the elect.

All Praise The Aancient Of Days
 
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LittleLion

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How do you know you are not deluding yourself with wishful thinking?
 
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LittleLion

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4childofgod said:
jOHN 3 16
fOR gOD SO lOVED THE wORLD HE GAVE HIS ONE AND ONLY SON SO WHO EVER BELIEVE IN HIM WILL HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE! dO YOU BELIEVE IN THE bIBLE LITTLE LION?

Yes, I believe in the Bible. And the Bible says many things. So many that several opposite theologies can be supported with the Bible.

I had done better, probably, if I had never opened the Bible at all.
 
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Ric

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Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. (NIV)
 
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visionary

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While studying on day, praying and studying about the end times, I got to the place in Revelation where it talks about the wedding supper. It reminded me of the invitation given by Yeshua in his story of the king sending out messages inviting people in the highways and byways to the wedding. I asked God about that and if anyone has received a wedding invitation. Just then an angel tapped me on the shoulder and handed me a wedding invitation written in gold. Have you got one?
 
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12volt_man

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LittleLion said:
How do you know that your (perceived) faith is not just wishful thinking?

1 John 5:11-13

It is up to God to decide whether you are part of His flock or not. Just because you wish to be part of God's flock doesn't make you part of God's flock.

John 6:37
 
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PhilosopherDave

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Littlelion,

Granted, there are some people who get attracted to Christianity, and at some superficial level assimilate a Christian mentality, but they were not called, or yet called, by God. ex. Matthew 7:21, 22, 23 (NKJV) "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kindgom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then I will declare to them, 'I NEVER knew you (emphasis mine)..." Of course, there are going to be some who think that outward participation automatically equals inclusion, but this is not the case.

As for myself, rather than approaching this my achieving certainty, I take Paul's approach in Phillippians 3:12, where he says, "Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which CHRIST JESUS HAS ALSO LAID HOLD OF ME." (emphasis mine) Verse 13, he continues, "Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead..." and then in verse 15, "Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you."

My point here is that Christians should get over this mentality of 'pinning down' the point of their salvation, and live everyday as if they have yet to finalize the PROCESS (note, I'm not saying that we should count the accumulation of our works, hoping that they outway our bad deeds). Being certain of being a chosen one is not for us to know. However, Christ did say that He would accept all those who come to Him, and He would not caste anyone away....although, you can attempt to walk away if you feel inclined.
 
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LittleLion

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Ric,

1 John 5:13

Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. (NIV)

and


12volt_man,


1 John 5:11-13

John 6:37

These are the most useless answers ever.

How do YOU, Ric and 12volt_man know that YOU are included? Are you so sure of your beliefs?!


* * *


PhilosopherDave,



Thank you for this sensible answer.
 
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MidnightBlue

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LittleLion said:
How do you know that your (perceived) faith is not just wishful thinking?

How do you know that you are not just deluding yourself, and the perceived answers to your prayers are something that would have happened anyway?
If you mean, can I demonstrate my faith logically and scientifically, using unassailable facts, no. Why should that bother me?

LittleLion said:
It is up to God to decide whether you are part of His flock or not. Just because you wish to be part of God's flock doesn't make you part of God's flock.

How can you be sure that YOU are one of the elect?
If Calvinism is what's troubling you, free yourself from the confines of Calvinism. Personally, I don't find it a very wholesome or useful way of thinking about God.
 
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Scholar in training

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LittleLion said:
Again: How do YOU, 12volt_man, know that YOU are included? Are you so sure of your beliefs?!
I'm not sure what you mean. Are you asking us (1) whether we know that our faith is true, or (2) whether we know we are saved, assuming our faith is true?

I assume you are asking the second question. If so, then I think the better questions are: would God cast us off (reject us) if we came to him out of repentance? If he wouldn't cast us off, can't we examine our fruit to see if we are doing what God told us to do?

And just for the record, I'm not a Calvinist.
 
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