How can we disagree?

[Rae]

I don't know if anyone else is seeing this, but I am seeing increased anger and resentment directed at those of us who oppose the US/UK action against Iraq. I saw just last Friday a sign saying I was worse than Saddam for protesting against this action which I believe to be morally wrong.

Now, I know most people here won't agree with my position on this issue. That's fine. I'm not asking you to in this thread (though it'd be really nice if everyone just agreed with me about everything ). What I am asking is this. When I see something LIKE this happening which I consider to be morally wrong, is protesting something I should not do? What "can" I do to show my disagreement with those things?

For example, many people here also oppose abortion. Rightly or wrongly, they see abortion as immoral. They take action by protesting, holding signs, gathering in front of abortion clinics, etc. Why is it okay for them to protest in this fashion and not okay for me to? I find war at least as immoral as they find abortion to be. Is it okay for me to protest?

Also, many people who are anti-abortion take actions in civil disobedience. I have seen massive objections to the civil disobedience done by protesters against the war, though. Why? Would you object to all acts of civil disobedience, by abortion protester and anti-war protester alike? Is it just protests against war that aren't okay? What if it's another Vietnam? Would it be okay then?

How should I show my disagreement with this war?

 

[nephilimiyr]

Rae I reject the thought of lumping everyone into one group. There are those who take extreme possitions on both sides concerning just about everything from abortion to this war. I get the feeling that you are feeling victimized by everyone who thinks the protesters are wrong and misguided. This isn't true. You ask how you should show your disagreement to this war as if saying we who are for it aren't giving you any options for peaceful protest and this simply isn't true. I don't believe that breaking the laws while protesting is a good means to show your discontent. Plus if that sign you saw disturbed you so why hasn't the claims from some of the protesters that people who are for this war are nothing but murderous warmongers, why doesn't that disturb you? Your seeing this only from one side and aren't takeing into account the whole picture.

 To answer your question on how to protest without inflameing others who don't agree with you is to gather in peaceful protest. I would say that by and large this has been done but like I said before there are extremists on both side who get all the attention. I don't see anything wrong with showing people your disagreement with issues such as the war or abortion or the actions of certain people who take extreme measures to show their discontent with issues such as the violence from some of the antiabortion crowd.

I am against abortion but I neither protest it nor force my beliefs on anyone who disagrees with it. I believe to stop abortion the general public needs to change their hearts from within. I also object to the civil disobedience of the violent anti-abortion crowd but forgive me if I'm wrong or not up to date with current events but when was the last riot caused by them? Maybe I've been living in a box lately but I don't remember any anti-abortion riot happening lately. I remember it was bad in the 80s and early 90s.

 

[stray bullet]

You are trying to keep a man in power that tortures his people and keeps them in a constant state of fear. How can that be NOT wrong?

Read my "How much is Saddam paying you to protest" topic, you might find it interesting, how someone like you changed their opinion once they actually saw the situation first hand.

 

[kitten]

I, too, am opposed to this war. I certainly believe that Saddam is a (brilliant in a dangerous way) madman, but any action should have been sanctioned by the UN, at least tacitly.

My spouse and I walked in the October rally in DC. We avoided the speechifying precisely because of the extremist issues - and enjoyed the Smithsonian instead. But when we came across the marching part of the protest, we participated and it was completely peaceful. Anything other than that and we would have distanced ourselves.

However, when I expressed my opposition to a former coworker (who only wears ties with American flags & eagles & such, if you catch my drift), he reamed me out completely, called me antiAmerican and cut me out of his life. Isn't freedom of speech/expression (within reason) one of the things America's about?

edited for clarification ~kitten

 

[nephilimiyr]

However, when I expressed my opposition to a former coworker (who only wears ties with American flags & eagles & such, if you catch my drift), he reamed me out completely, called me antiAmerican and cut me out of his life. Isn't freedom of speech/expression (within reason) one of the things America's about?

What's the probability that Saddam has funneled any WMD he may have had to Al Quaida? It's certainly not impossible...

I totally respect your views and right to protest Kitten. You state your views and show your oposition to the war in a peaceful, intelligent way! However don't let that one man who verbally attacked you let you think that all of us who agree with this war set your mind into thinking we're all like that. Some of the anti-war people have verbally attacked those who happen to be for the war too. Were you able to see the thread here last weekend of the navy guy who became in fear for his safty just because he was in uniform and walking by the anti war protesters? Like I said above, there are extremists on both sides.

 

[kitten]

Oh, I don't think that all people who support the war are like this guy. There are extremists on both sides, as you said, and I can't help but be reminded of the peace protesters from the Vietnam war who attacked the soldiers - they were then and are now doing their duty.

Just a tangent I thought of: I used to work for the military health care system, and just about every time I talked to an active duty service member or a veteran, I thanked them for their service. This was all before 9/11, and frequently the reply was "Thank you. We don't hear that very much." I certainly support the troops - I have a good friend who's in Kabul right now.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Very good then, I think we're both showing Rae how two people can disagree on such a hot topic as this and still remain civil to each other and not breaking any rules or laws, thank you!

The thing about violent protests weather it's protesting abortion or wars is that it never persuades the powers that be to change their minds. Blocking the doors of abortion clinics to shooting abortion doctors or disrupting traffic to being disorderly is never a persausive arguement for the cause.

 

[kitten]

that's the thing - the Powers That Be are exactly that and will do what they want i n spite of public outcry, no matter how loud it is

 

[stray bullet]

Kitten, Freedom of Expression and tolerance are very different.

I have the freedom to be a racist or sexist, but I don't have the freedom to be socially tolerated for it. A lot of people, such a Bill Maher a while back, confuse freedom of speech with immunity from intolerance.
In other words, you are free to say whatever you want, but that doesn't mean I have to accept or respect it. Maher was thrown off the air for praising the 9-11 terrorists while calling our military cowards. He brought up freedom of speech. Well, he can say whatever he wants without being legally in trouble for it, but it doesn't mean his audience or ABC has to put up with it.

 

[MetalBlade]

I for one have nothing against protestors. It is stated in the Constution that Americans have the right to free speech, and it is healthy to use these freedoms. However, I am getting sick of it. I was listening to the radio yesterday and they reported anti war and pro war demenstrations were going on in Chicago. They even stated that there were more pro war ralliers than anti-war protestors. However, when I was listening to CNN they talked about the anti-protestors in Chicago, but not about the pro war ralliers. Which made no sense because there were more of the pro then anti. Sometimes I hate the media!!!!

 

[seebs]

Today at 09:37 AM Rae said this in Post #1

I don't know if anyone else is seeing this, but I am seeing increased anger and resentment directed at those of us who oppose the US/UK action against Iraq. I saw just last Friday a sign saying I was worse than Saddam for protesting against this action which I believe to be morally wrong.
(...)
How should I show my disagreement with this war?

Well, the good news is, however you do it, you'll come across as more rational and moral than the person who produced that sign. What nonsense! I may disagree with you, but I'll happily grant that it's a complicated issue.

 

[Rae]

SB claims:
You are trying to keep a man in power that tortures his people and keeps them in a constant state of fear.

Rae:
Nope, I'm not. I'm trying to get the US to get him out of power or out of any danger to others without using war. Read the numerous posts I've made where I advocate using either indirect aid to Iraqis who wish to fight a war for independence from Saddam or that sanctions should have continued, but being enforced by power if necessary (but less than a full scale war).

BTW, I am trying not to demonize the pro-war people, either. As I've also stated numerous times, many good people from my denomination, Unitarian Universalist, are for this war on humanitarian grounds. I believe I haven't ever made any assessments of pro-war people as "evil" or "pro-corporate" unless it was to show the pro-war side how unfair it was being to the anti-war side.

 

[Rae]

BTW, I do appreciate those who are being civil, including Neph and Kitten right here, and numerous others I'm sure I'm forgetting. I have just been feeling bombarded by ... er, well, the media, I guess. Every time I turn on the radio I hear some pro-war person saying, "Well, I think everyone should just support the war and stop all this protest nonsense because it doesn't support our troops."

Yes, sometimes I hate our media as well.

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 03:13 PM Rae said this in Post #12 

Read the numerous posts I've made where I advocate using either indirect aid to Iraqis who wish to fight a war for independence from Saddam or that sanctions should have continued, but being enforced by power if necessary (but less than a full scale war).

So you believe in civil war then? Perhaps you were just born at the wrong time in history. My wife was watching "Gone with the Wind" we got a copy of it at the library. Perhaps you would like to go out and rent a copy of that, sense you think civil war is ok.

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 10:37 AM Rae said this in Post #1 

What if it's another Vietnam? Would it be okay then? 

This is not another Vietnam. We never once attacked north vietnam, we did not even bomb their supply lines. The USA only tried to defend south vietnam. All the fighting took place in south vietnam. One of the problems was, there was a lot of confusion as to who was and who was not the enemy.

At the time they thought maybe the enemy dressed up like civilians during the day. But as it turned out they had a massive underground tunnel system and they would go underground during the day and come out at night.

There was never any war north of the 38 parallel.

 

[Stormy]

I hate war. At one time I was opposed to this war. I wanted to believe that my opposition came from the goodness within me. I told myself that it was not right to kill for any reason.

All the while, I was very comfortable in the fact that I could protest. My voice could be raised against military action... and then I could go back to my comfortable existence, without any fear of repercussions from a government that I did not agree with.

I prayed to God to speak to the hearts of those who were demanding this war. I asked him to show them how wrong they were.

But instead it was my heart that was changed. I began to cry for all the Iraqi people, who did not know the joy of living free in this world. I began to see that it was fear, not goodness, that prevented me from agreeing with the leadership of my country. I was afraid to help. I didn't want to take the chance. I just wanted to block the evil out and go on. But I could not... for now that my eyes were open... I could no longer pretend not to see. Saddam is not merely a threat to his people... he is a threat to the world. He is evil and he will one day be impossible to contain. His power can not be allowed to destroy a world that God created.

But go ahead... Raise your voice loud in Protest!

But when you do... be thankful that we have a Leader in charge of our military whose aim is to assure that you will forever remain free!

Be thankful, that there are men and women out there, right now, laying down their life so that you have the freedom to pick up that sign.

Go .... Protest... It is your right!!

I will instead spend my time in prayer.

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 03:17 PM Rae said this in Post #13 
"Well, I think everyone should just support the war and stop all this protest nonsense because it doesn't support our troops." 

What are our troops fighting for? For freedom? Then people have the right to protest in a peaceful way. The only freedom I do not think we have is to be critical of the people who fight for our freedom to protest. People have given their blood and died, so that you would have the freedom to protest and express your opinion in a peaceful way.

Do the Amish have the right to live a peaceful life? They sure do. Do they have the right not to have to fight in any wars? They sure do. Because someone was willing to fight to defend that right.

Do the Iraq people have a right to protest against their government, do they have freedom in Iraq?

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 03:35 PM Stormy said this in Post #16

Go .... Protest... It is your right!!

I will instead spend my time in prayer.

People have a right to protest, but there was a high price paid, so they could have that right.

Even the protests in Europe. We went to war against Nazi Germany to secure their freedom, to be able to protest.

 

[nephilimiyr]

This is not another Vietnam. We never once attacked north vietnam, we did not even bomb their supply lines. The USA only tried to defend south vietnam. All the fighting took place in south vietnam. One of the problems was, there was a lot of confusion as to who was and who was not the enemy. 


There was never any war north of the 38 parallel.

I just had to reply to this for only one reason and that's to correct you on your history. There may not have been an invasion of N Vietnam by the US but they most certainly did bring the war to Hanoi which at the time was in North Vietnam. President Johnson bombed the heck out of the place numerous times and in 1972 President Nixon had ordered what happend to be at that time the largest air bombardment in history on one city because Hanoi walked away from the peace table. The bombardment of Hanoi and all of North Vietnam brought them back to the table in which the result was the peace tready.

To say that the north never saw war is very much not true! Also the 38 parallel is in Korea and marks the boundry between North and South, it's not in Vietnam!

 

[stray bullet]

Today at 03:13 PM Rae said this in Post #12

Read the numerous posts I've made where I advocate using either indirect aid to Iraqis who wish to fight a war for independence from Saddam or that sanctions should have continued, but being enforced by power if necessary (but less than a full scale war).

It's been tried and it failed.