How can there be free will in heaven?

Aldebaran · Sep 17, 2022

levnishbar said:
I think while we would have free choice and a theoretical possibility of sinning, we wouldn't, for a number of reasons:

Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God would be so close and manifest to us that we wouldn't want any other substitute to a close relationship with them. John 17:3 The fact that we would know God so personally is eternal life, and we wouldn't want it any other way. There are a few definitions of sin, but it basically comes down to not doing God's will. If we can see and talk to him face-to-face everyday, God's will for us would be plain.

There would be such community in Heaven - no more evil people and no more fear of being hurt by others

The Devil & his cohorts would be in the Lake of Fire

Our bodies would be spiritual, and the sinful flesh is no more

I believe we will have work and hobbies in Heaven too, but the work won't be with toil and sweat.

Problem with #1 here is that Adam started out sinless, walked physically with God and spoke with Him face-to-face everyday, and only had ONE single commandment to follow, which wasn't all that difficult to follow. Today, we have an entire book, plus more denominations and legalism that further confuses matters. But Adam just had only that one commandment to follow "Don't eat the fruit of that tree!", and he couldn't even do that, even though he didn't already have a sin nature. He didn't even have hunger issues.
C'mon, Adam! Why? Just why???

TedT · Sep 17, 2022

Handmaid for Jesus said:
No. You are a sinner because you are a descendant of Adam after he allowed sin in. Every man is born with the sin nature. That is why you must be born again. Read John 3.

Scriptures and their exegesis to explain that HE would never create those HE knew would end in hell:
Deuteronomy 32:4 "The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.

Psalm 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all His ways And kind in all His deeds.
Light cannot create darkness!
Righteousness cannot create evil!

1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. I contend that our GOD who is loving and kind, righteous and just and faithful to HIS creation to be this way for them WOULD NEVER create anyone to suffer in sinfulness or to go to hell for any reason.

Does HE not do all for HIS own pleasure? Yet Psalm 5:4 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell. I contend that if this psalm is true, HE would never have created the evil reprobate for HIS pleasure because HE takes no pleasure in evil.

Also HE takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked or of anyone;
Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, so how can HE created them as evil knowing their end in eternal death???

And finally, to will them to a life of evil, suffering and hell is contrary to Lamentations 3:33 For He does not willingly afflict or grieve the sons of men. If HE is not willing to punish evil, how could HE willingly create evil people subject to HIS condemnation to a life of suffering and death?

Landon Caeli · Sep 17, 2022

TedT said:
I have come to realize that the fact that the full story of GOD's interaction with man on this earth ending with a heavenly marriage implies that the heavenly marriage was HIS purpose for our creation. It is in the heavenly marriage that HIS GLORY shines forth the strongest and most perfect in relationship with us, NOT in justice nor redemption which are merely aids to bring the marriage to fruition after to our moral stumbles.

HIS plan for all creation was the heavenly marriage.
HIS plan for each of us is the heavenly marriage.
Everything HE has ever done or will ever do conformed to this purpose, this plan, and He has never done anything that would slow this plan down or put it off or side track it in the least!

It implies that ALL of HIS being, all of HIS Sovereignty, all of HIS love, HIS righteousness and HIS nature has just have one perfect focus, to culminate HIS relationship with HIS creation in the heavenly marriage: one plan, one focus.

Therefore:
Our free will is an absolute necessity.
Aside from the fact that GOD cannot create any evil so all sinfulness proves the free will of the sinner, it is also a fact that true love and true marriage can be arrived at only by the free will acceptance of the lover and acceptance of the proposal of marriage by the Bride. GOD is not a Borg willing to have a Stepford wife...

It implies that everyone ever created in HIS image, ie, able to be a proper Bride for HIM, was created perfectly capable and able to become HIS bride, not held back by any imperfection or lack of acceptance by HIM.
Isaiah 43:
7 "whom I created for my glory"
21 the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.

Ecc 7:29 Only this have I found: I have discovered that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.” Upright: S3477, yashar, straightforward, just, upright: GOD created no one disgustingly corrupt, enslaved to sin and unable to be HIS Bride without HIS intervention.

By their coming into being everyone must have been within HIS plan, not separated from HIM by anything until they decide by their informed free will to reject HIM and HIS plan. HE cannot marry an evil person so why would HE create by any means, any system at all, evil people? It is impossible.

Light cannot create darkness.
A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit.
A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water.
GOODNESS cannot bring forth evil.
Inherited sin or sin by the will of GOD is anathema.

GOD cannot create evil people by fiat or by putting them into a system whereby they come into existence as sinners! Psalm 5:4 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell. I contend that if this Psalm is true, HE would never have created us the evil in Adam for HIS pleasure because HE takes no pleasure in evil.

I contend that GOD WOULD NEVER make us evil by putting us into Adam's sin or sin nature or whatever evil name you want to give to us for becoming conceived and born as human! Light cannot produce dark. Loving righteousness cannot produce evil by any means or system of creation.

What you're saying then, is that you fully reject the doctrine of "Sin Nature" and/or "Original Sin"?

Original Happy Camper · Sep 17, 2022

HTacianas said:
No one knows. There could in fact be another rebellion.

Yes we do know

Rebellion is sin

Nahum 1:9
What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time

levnishbar · Sep 17, 2022

Aldebaran said:
Problem with #1 here is that Adam started out sinless, walked physically with God and spoke with Him face-to-face everyday, and only had ONE single commandment to follow, which wasn't all that difficult to follow. Today, we have an entire book, plus more denominations and legalism that further confuses matters. But Adam just had only that one commandment to follow "Don't eat the fruit of that tree!", and he couldn't even do that, even though he didn't already have a sin nature. He didn't even have hunger issues.
C'mon, Adam! Why? Just why???

The setup in the Garden of Eden will certainly be different to the new Heaven & Earth.
Revelation 21:1-4

Handmaid for Jesus · Sep 17, 2022

TedT said:
And finally, to will them to a life of evil, suffering and hell is contrary to Lamentations 3:33 For He does not willingly afflict or grieve the sons of men. If HE is not willing to punish evil, how could HE willingly create evil people subject to HIS condemnation to a life of suffering and death?

God did NOT create mankind evil. He created a sinless being in His own image. Mankind chose to disobey the command to not eat of the tree and allowed the sin nature into himself.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Original Happy Camper · Sep 17, 2022

TedT said:
so how can HE created them as evil knowing their end in eternal death???

He did not create them evil
They choose to be evil,
It is called free will which all the angelical host and man kind have

Clare73 · Sep 17, 2022

TedT said:
Every time righteous judgment, love or marriage is mentioned... A free will is implicitly contained in the definitions of these things. No explicit statement of scripture is necessary when it is implied by word definitions and context...

Implied depends on personal interpretation.
Correct interpretation depends on a working knowledge of the Bible.

No one is guilty of sin if they don't choose it themselves by their free will.
No marriage is a true marriage of souls if it is forced against the will of the Bride.

Who made those rules?

True love cannot be forced by mental manipulation or any other power.

So?

Clare73 · Sep 17, 2022

Sheila Davis said:
Genesis 2:17 refers to the tree of knowledge and the Tree of Life was not taken away until after they ate from the Tree of Knowledge.
Genesis 3:22 refers to the Tree of Life which gave immortality - isn't that what live forever means, (instant healing). Revelation 22:2 tells us that the Tree of Life provides healing
Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 22:2 - King James Version
Revelation 2:7 where Jesus said those that overcometh he will give to eat of the Tree of Life. I agree with those who believe as listed below
Why Would Immortal People Need A Tree Of Life? - Ready4Eternity

What is the Tree of Life?

I NEVER said that the new bodies would not be immortal _ I gave reference to 1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it do it not yet appear what we shall be: but we shall know that, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

It is no assumption that there are three - the Bible *specifically* speaks of three different entities _ God our Father _ Jesus our Lord God _ and the Holy Spirit, the comforter. Even in the Old Testament ... David gives reference to the Son - he says kiss the Son lest he be angry and another scripture he says the Lord said unto my Lord ... Daniel said that was one in the fiery furnace that had the appearance of the Son of God. And throughout the Old Testament there are references to the Spirit of the Lord came unto someone.

I have to say again there is nowhere in scripture does it say Adam and Eve were created perfect - just like it's nowhere in Scripture that Cain married his sister - now that is an assumption and of teachings of most men throughout generations also.

Different churches teach different theology concerning different matters in Scripture.

I believe as many believe - you have the right to believe as you see certain things in the Bible.

Why Would Immortal People Need A Tree Of Life? - Ready4Eternity

Were Adam And Eve Created Immortal?

A reason atheist give in their disbelief in God because Christians can not agree on what many scriptures mean - and they feel if the Holy Spirit actually existed there would be no division.

Would that it were that simple. . .

levnishbar · Sep 17, 2022

TedT said:
No one is guilty of sin if they don't choose it themselves by their free will.

Can you please explain your statement in light of Deuteronomy 23:2 No one born of a forbidden marriage nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD, not even in the tenth generation.

How is it that the illegitimate child pays for the sins of the parents?

timothyu · Sep 17, 2022

The knowledge of good and evil may have changed things originally, but it was human unwillingness to put God's will first before our own that brought that acquired knowledge about in the first place. That was the original sin.

That choice of our will over His would fall under free will. Choice. Even if the 'knowledge' was removed from our lives, we would still have to have free will to be of any use to God in performing functions given to us as was shown in the naming of animals. Creative process requires free will. Our duties were not a simple case of fetch, roll over or pull a plough.

So even if knowledge was removed in the Kingdom, free will would remain. Jesus didn't go through what He did to make us pets. So it seems logical that a lifetime of suffering from the repercussions caused by our putting our wills ahead of each others, should for those worthy of the Kingdom, give them the understanding how and why self interest is worthless. This is where repentance (change) comes in. God taught us to be contrary to our ways when He said love others as self. If we understand the wisdom of this, will we not acknowledge our willingness to live that way in the Kingdom, where all others who prefer self will be rejected? Trust is a two way street, and if we break that trust we have in God and the trust He is willing to give us in the next realm, there will probably be no lifetime once again to repent of our actions if we break that trust next time around. Elimination could be swift.

timothyu · Sep 17, 2022

Aldebaran said:
C'mon, Adam! Why? Just why???

The usual reason... a woman

Clare73 · Sep 17, 2022

timothyu said:
The knowledge of good and evil may have changed things originally, but it was human unwillingness to put God's will first before our own that brought that acquired knowledge about in the first place. That was the original sin.

That choice of our will over His would fall under free will.

Which is man's construct taken from philosophy, not from Scripture.

Scripture is not concerned with, nor does it present "free will."
In fact, Scripture's view is that we are not free, for all those who sin are slaves to sin, and slaves are not free to totally govern themselves.

Landon Caeli · Sep 17, 2022

timothyu said:
The knowledge of good and evil may have changed things originally, but it was human unwillingness to put God's will first before our own that brought that acquired knowledge about in the first place. That was the original sin.

That choice of our will over His would fall under free will. Even if the 'knowledge' was removed from our lives, we would still have to have free will to be of any use to God in performing functions given to us as was shown in the naming of animals. Creative process requires free will. Our duties were not a simple case of fetch, roll over or pull a plough.

So even if knowledge was removed in the Kingdom, free will would remain. Jesus didn't go through what He did to make us pets. So it seems logical that a lifetime of suffering from the repercussions caused by our putting our wills ahead of each others, should for those worthy of the Kingdom, give them the understanding how and why self interest is worthless. This is where repentance (change) comes in. God taught us to be contrary to our ways when He said love others as self. If we understand the wisdom of this, will we not acknowledge our willingness to live that way in the Kingdom, where all others who prefer self will be rejected? Trust is a two way street, and if we break that trust we have in God and the trust He is willing to give us in the next realm, there will probably be no lifetime once again to repent of our actions if we break that trust next time around. Elimination could be swift.

If the choice will forever be mine, as it is here and now, regardless of any sin nature or physical or environmental factors, then I'm afraid I might not last long in heaven. Unfortunately.

timothyu · Sep 17, 2022

Landon Caeli said:
If the choice will forever be mine, regardless of any sin nature or physical or environmental factors, then I'm afraid I might not last long in heaven.

Then the logic of loving all as self rather than just self may not have sunk in? God said we became gods like them. They've lived with it.

Landon Caeli · Sep 17, 2022

timothyu said:
Then the logic of loving all as self rather than just self may not have sunk in? God said we became gods like them. They've lived with it.

So, prior to death, we should reach the point of sinless perfection? So we can maintain it for the rest of eternity?

Original Happy Camper · Sep 17, 2022

timothyu said:
That was the original sin.

disobedience was the first sin

and Jesus warned us about it

Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mark 7:7
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Colossians 2:22
Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Titus 1:14
Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

timothyu · Sep 17, 2022

Landon Caeli said:
So, prior to death, we should reach the point of sinless perfection?

Impossible I would say, but at least the understanding of why God said we had it backwards and an allegiance to His will over our own. He doesn't overwhelm us with rules like man does.

timothyu · Sep 17, 2022

Original Happy Camper said:
disobedience was the first sin

and Jesus warned us about it

Exactly. Putting our will ahead of His.

Sheila Davis · Sep 17, 2022

Clare73 said:
Would that it were that simple. . .

I said *A* reason - correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't / couldn't that mean one of many? At the current time I am on Reddit an atheist site which wants to discuss and debate with Christians, so I know it's not that simple.

How can there be free will in heaven?

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