How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

bling said:

I totally agree that everyone that is saved is saved by grace, so what is your point?

Do you believe God loves some and not others for some arbitrary reason?

In Your opinion: what is God’s reason for Loving some and not others if there is no difference between them?

Did Jesus only love those that were being saved?

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Romans 9

MennoSota said:

You are making a non-biblical argument.

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Scripture can not be broken. So then we should study and believe what scripture says, all of it. I liken it to a giant jigsaw puzzle where every piece has to fit to make up the whole, and no one piece can be fit any old place. Calvinism makes sense of the scriptures since it agrees with the reading of the text..

When people say there is no predestination, they don't believe the scripture that says it is true. If you can not believe what scripture says, how can you believe at all in the truth.

sdowney717 said:

When people say there is no predestination, they don't believe the scripture that says it is true. If you can not believe what scripture says, how can you believe at all in the truth.

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God’s plan had a hopeful beginning

But man ruined it all by his sinning

We trust that the story

Will end in God’s glory

But at present the other side’s winning!

That little limerick displays so clearly the theology of those who do not believe in predestination. But it is so far off the truth which the scriptures present concerning God’s intention from before the creation that it forms the basis for a great deal of very bad theology here in the forum and likely the majority of the church worldwide .

[1 Cor. 2:7,8] “But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory.”

Notice in this scripture that the mystery of Christ and Him crucified and the preaching of the gospel was ordained from before the world. Those who rail against predestination conveniently ignore that most basic fact concerning the gospel.

Note how much more is revealed about those who deny predestination if we study even more of the passage.

1 Corinthians 2:6-14 “ Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; but just as it is written,

“Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard,
And which have not entered the heart of man,
All that God has prepared for those who love Him.”

For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.”

I wouldn’t want to say that all those who don’t understand what this passage obviously teaches do not possess the Spirit of God – and are therefore not saved. I suppose there may be other reasons why they don’t pick up the simple truth concerning the predestination of the fall and redemption God planned beforehand when they read through this passage.

But when we have so many other passages in addition which teach these things at least as clearly as this passage ---- one does have to wonder about at least some of the enemies of Reformed truth.

Hi, Marvin, this is so apropo too.

Revelation 13:7-9New King James Version (NKJV)
7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.

From the foundation, so then before Adam was, Christ slain for us who were to come.

Hebrews4
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’”

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Notice what Paul teaches about 'before time began' and us who believe in His dear Son.

2 Timothy 1:8-10New King James Version (NKJV)
Not Ashamed of the Gospel
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Titus 1New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting
1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior;

4 To Titus, a true son in our common faith:

Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.

Before time began, God made a promise of eternal life, that He would call us with a holy calling, according to His own purpose and grace, and that Christ would be OUR Savior.
So then we are most certainly been predestined and also ELECT, as it says, before time began, v9.
And Paul says God cannot lie, so this is true.
I love His eternal consolations towards us from our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. That decision of God was rendered before time began.

sdowney717 said:

Before time began, God made a promise of eternal life, that He would call us with a holy calling, according to His own purpose and grace, and that Christ would be OUR Savior. So then we are most certainly been predestined and also ELECT, as it says, before time began, v9

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It's all so unmistakable. If God predestined grace and election then He also predestined that there would be a need for grace and election.

Duhhh! IMO

God is not - as some apparently want to see it - playing it by ear as He goes along.

It's kind of a no-brainer really if you look at the scriptures as a systematic whole.

But then - as we have been told - some do not believe in looking at scripture in a systematic way. Hence they do not see all of history as a plan for the age and not just a happenstance that resulted from the confounding of God by His creation who kind of got out of hand.

I fully sympathize with those who have questions of God about the fairness of it all and such. Heck - - what thinking Calvinist hasn't had the same questions of God - and probably has asked them?

But really - as I have said man times - first you have to believe what He has said and then you ask your questions of Him.

But then that is, to coin a phrase - the name of the game isn't it?

Namely - whether or not men will have faith in God when it is difficult to do so.

Would that Adam and Eve had taken the proper approach to difficulties concerning His Word - ehh?

Marvin Knox said:

Would that Adam and Eve had taken the proper approach to difficulties concerning His Word - ehh?

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Then, it would be a whole different paradigm.
As this thread is [somewhat] about grace;
This WAY, the WAY YHWH DESIGNED, we [ekklesia] learn what self-sacrifice, mercy, justice, judgment, and grace is; exactly as YHWH DESIGNED.

Marvin Knox said:

Would that Adam and Eve had taken the proper approach to difficulties concerning His Word - ehh?

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They couldn't. Or else they would go against God's predestination for them. God had planned all along for them to fall. God had planned all along that He would be sending men to hell without any recourse. Through God's plan, He shut up the kingdom of God against man.

And don't forget Marvin, His final destination for you may be eternal damnation. You have absolutely no idea.

EmSw said:

They couldn't..... You have absolutely no idea.

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This only re-enforces and confirms what we realized earlier (days ago) -
you have no idea
what predestination is ,
nor what grace is.
For some people likewise, the great pain suffered, the injustice of years lost, and the memory of it can be excruciating and prevent freedom for them to turn to YHWH for HIS GRACE in Y'SHUA.
It takes a miracle of grace to be healed, for everyone, not just some.

Marvin Knox said:

It's all so unmistakable. If God predestined grace and election then He also predestined that there would be a need for grace and election.

Duhhh! IMO

God is not - as some apparently want to see it - playing it by ear as He goes along.

It's kind of a no-brainer really if you look at the scriptures as a systematic whole.

But then - as we have been told - some do not believe in looking at scripture in a systematic way. Hence they do not see all of history as a plan for the age and not just a happenstance that resulted from the confounding of God by His creation who kind of got out of hand.

I fully sympathize with those who have questions of God about the fairness of it all and such. Heck - - what thinking Calvinist hasn't had the same questions of God - and probably has asked them?

But really - as I have said man times - first you have to believe what He has said and then you ask your questions of Him.

But then that is, to coin a phrase - the name of the game isn't it?

Namely - whether or not men will have faith in God when it is difficult to do so.

Would that Adam and Eve had taken the proper approach to difficulties concerning His Word - ehh?

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It just was not in their natures to know good from evil, yet.

Adam and Eve, God forgave their sin, He did for them the blood sacrifice, (without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness of sin).
He gave them animal skins to wear.
Adam and Eve did not believe what God had said and believed the serpent's words. Eve was directly deceived, Adam was not talking with Satan, and believed His wife, but they were captive to the lusts of their flesh, even though innocent of sin, good and evil. The temptation was to be like God Himself, to be wise. The fruit was good for food, so not poisonous, maybe other animals ate the fruit and lived. The fruit was attractive and the tree appeared like a good pleasant tree, like so many deceivers today, appearing as good angels of light, attractive to the eye and the mind and oh so wise but inwardly are full of evil being true servants of the liar Satan.

1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made

6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.

EmSw said:

They couldn't. Or else they would go against God's predestination for them.

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No - not at all.

They had a choice to be made. They made the wrong choice. In their so doing they established what God had predestined to take place.

If they had made the other choice - they would have established that they were predestined to do something else.

It seems to me that we've been through this quite a few times now. The predestination of all things that happen in God's creation in no way eliminates the freedom of the creation to make choices nor the judgment of God concerning the consequences of those choices.

You need to print out a copy of the WCF so that you won't keep making mistakes like you so often do.

WCF
Chapter III
Of God's Eternal Decree
I. "God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

EmSw said:

God had planned all along for them to fall.

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Now you understand. Good job.

The choices of men establish what God has predestined in His wisdom to take place.

EmSw said:

God had planned all along that He would be sending men to hell without any recourse.

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No - Read the 1 Corinthians passage again above.

He planned all along to provide a recourse for man's rightful judgment of Hell.

There is recourse for our sinful lives. "Christ and Him crucified!" Have you heard the good news?

EmSw said:

He shut up the kingdom of God against man.

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No - He has opened set the Kingdom of God before you and bids you enter.

It's a narrow gate - "Christ and Him crucified." "Believe on the Lord Jesus Chirst and you shall be saved."

EmSw said:

And don't forget Marvin, His final destination for you may be eternal damnation. You have absolutely no idea.

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To the contrary my friend.

"I know whom I have believed and I am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have entrusted to Him against that day."

Your invitation still stands and will stand until the day you die. I hope to see you in Heaven.

I implore you to put away your gospel of human merit and trust in Christ's accomplishments at Calvary as your only hope of salvation.

If we are not clothed by Him, then we are naked and exposed, without God and without hope, read Ephesians 2:12.

I don't think those in Hell have any clothes.

Isaiah 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, My soul shall be joyful in my God; For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness, As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments, And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

sdowney717 said:

I don't think those in Hell have any clothes.

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No matter for them. If my memory has not failed, (check TORAH/ YHWH'S WORD),
They also cannot see anyone else.
They are absolutely alone, excruciatingly void of any experience of any other in any way.
They know and have nothing except
what they worked for on earth("their pay"/ "their wages"): pain and anguish, and can do nothing.

Marvin Knox said:

No - not at all.

They had a choice to be made. They made the wrong choice. In their so doing they established what God had predestined to take place.

If they had made the other choice - they would have established that they were predestined to do something else.

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First off Marvin, thank you for your humane response.

Now, the $64,000 question - Is God's predestination based upon man's free choice, or is man's free choice based upon God's predestination?

Marvin Knox said:

It seems to me that we've been through this quite a few times now. The predestination of all things that happen in God's creation in no way eliminates the freedom of the creation to make choices nor the judgment of God concerning the consequences of those choices.

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It seems this makes God an earthly man. Let me explain.

Whatever you do today Marvin, I, EmSw, predestine you to do. It makes no difference what you choose to do, it will be according to my predestination for you. You can argue with my predestination, or you can accept my predestination, but, it will be as I pre-determine.

If you choose to eat chicken today, that's my predestination for you. If you choose to eat something else, that's my predestination for you also. You see, I have all bases covered, for whatever you choose to eat, I predestined it. You can change your mind a hundred times, but it will always be according to my predestination for you.

You don't need to know what I've predestined, for that is only for me to know. But know this, whatever you choose, establishes the fact I've predestined your choice what to eat.

Marvin Knox said:

You need to print out a copy of the WCF so that you won't keep making mistakes like you so often do.

WCF
Chapter III
Of God's Eternal Decree
I. "God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

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I see how this works. I just need to write something down and it's truth. Let me explain.

I will write this, and this establishes what I write as truth.

I. "God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; and so thereby, God is the author of sin, and violence is offered to the will of the creatures; and the liberty or contingency of second causes is taken away, and established."

Just because I write it down, it is established, and many will believe what I wrote, because I, a man, wrote it down. Many won't believe what I wrote; that is because I predestined them not to believe, and have established their damnation for not believing.

Now, don't use any reason or rationale to try explain my predestination, for it is far above your understanding. Just accept it Marvin. Let me give you little light into my wisdom Marvin. I know in my omniscience that you won't believe what I wrote above. Therefore, I am going to predestine that you don't believe me. And you will suffer any consequence of not believing. Remember, it's all your fault you don't believe, and I get glory for predestining you not to believe.

To show you I know the truth, we will wait to see if you believe or not.

Marvin Knox said:

Now you understand. Good job.

The choices of men establish what God has predestined in His wisdom to take place.

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Good, now you understand. Your choice not to believe what I wrote establishes my predestination for that choice of yours. My wisdom of far beyond yours, so don't even think about questioning my predestination for you. Just accept it.

Marvin Knox said:

No - Read the 1 Corinthians passage again above.

He planned all along to provide a recourse for man's rightful judgment of Hell.

There is recourse for our sinful lives. "Christ and Him crucified!" Have you heard the good news?

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I will also give you the remedy for your unbelief of what I wrote. If you will believe the Hindu version of salvation, you will be forgiven of your predestined unbelief and live forever. Since I know you won't believe that either, I will predestine you to eternal damnation also. I will not choose you for life Marvin, for you are an unbelieving sinner and deserve eternal damnation.

Marvin Knox said:

No - He has opened set the Kingdom of God before you and bids you enter.

It's a narrow gate - "Christ and Him crucified." "Believe on the Lord Jesus Chirst and you shall be saved."

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Marvin, I have opened the kingdom for you. Just believe what I said and be saved. But, I predestined you not to believe, so these words aren't for you. I wrote them to show you of your zero chance of eternal life. But remember, you are the one who freely choose to not believe what I wrote, so it's all your fault.

Marvin Knox said:

To the contrary my friend.

"I know whom I have believed and I am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have entrusted to Him against that day."

Your invitation still stands and will stand until the day you die. I hope to see you in Heaven.

I implore you to put away your gospel of human merit and trust in Christ's accomplishments at Calvary as your only hope of salvation.

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I implore you to put away your gospel of predestination and trust that God determines according to your ways and deeds in this life, and not before you have any ways and deeds.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

This only re-enforces and confirms what we realized earlier (days ago) -
you have no idea
what predestination is ,
nor what grace is.
For some people likewise, the great pain suffered, the injustice of years lost, and the memory of it can be excruciating and prevent freedom for them to turn to YHWH for HIS GRACE in Y'SHUA.
It takes a miracle of grace to be healed, for everyone, not just some.

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Tell me what grace teaches man. Show us that you know what grace is. There is one Reformed person on this forum who won't answer that.

I also take you have hope that God predestines you to eternal life. Well, He could have well predestined you to eternal damnation, without any recourse. Do you put your soul on the line hoping the predestination lottery is lucky for you?

yeshuaslavejeff said:

I do not know if it can be called 'arbitrary' or not,
but
it is written someplace the "YHWH LOVES US FOR NO REASON AT ALL". HE JUST DOES.

The point being, (if I remember correctly), in what I read, is that
since
there is NO REASON HE LOVES US,
then
there is nothing that could happen to change that.

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I am not suggesting any logical reason for God loving us since Godly type Love goes beyond any logical reason.

God does Love all humans for no logical reason, which is consistent (fair).

What I am asking is: “what keeps God from love all of humanity at least for some time in their life with this Godly type Love equally (consistently) like we are to love everyone?”

Your theology seems to be saying God is arbitrary with His Love?

bling said:

Your theology seems to be saying God is arbitrary with His Love?

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Unless you mean something different from most other posters here,
I have no theology per se.

On this board, theology is used to cause fights, created differences, spawn quarrels like the scribes and pharisees did.

bling said:

What I am asking is: “what keeps God from love all of humanity at least for some time in their life with this Godly type Love equally (consistently) like we are to love everyone?”

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Nothing keeps YHWH from loving all of humanity without measure (no limit).

sdowney717 said:

The same point I continually make in most of my posts in this forum.
The reason for God's love is an unknowable mystery that He does not have to explain to anyone, just that He does love us.
And the 'us' are those He saves, some from every tribe, tongue, nation.
Ephesians says

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

v6 tells us he saved us to demonstrate to all creation, and all creatures, the glory of His grace. And so then we praise God for the grace he gave us that actually saved us.

The 'praise of the glory of His grace' points to the excellency of His own self in choosing to forgive us all our evil sins and making us accepted in the Beloved, which is the Trinity of God whereby all the family of God are named, Him sealing us and putting upon us His mark that we are His forever.

1 Corinthians 6:17New King James Version (NKJV)
17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

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Again, I have no issue with God’s Love being beyond logic and unexplainable in the sense, but Loving all is consistent and thus fair and just, since God Loves all humans equally.

The issue comes with your theology that has God being inconsistent, unfair and unjust by Loving some nonbelievers and not Loving others equally for no reason at all “arbitrarily”?

I also feel we can “know” God’s Love by experiencing God’s Love living in us and through us, so our Love for others become illogical.

The verses you quote have to do exclusively with Christian and do not address the nonbeliever and we all start out nonbelievers. You are mistakenly projecting those promises to Christians back to same people when they were nonbelievers suggesting God treated them differently as nonbelievers then other nonbelievers at the time. The question is what allowed and why was it allowed for this group of Christians to go from being nonbelievers to believers that was not available to other nonbeliever who remained nonbelievers?

bling said:

The question is what allowed and why was it allowed for this group of Christians to go from being nonbelievers to believers that was not available to other nonbeliever who remained nonbelievers?

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To whom much is given, much is required.
What is given one that is different than another is often a mystery just because it is not spoken about or consciously known.

Some have much more opportunity for "HEARING" YHWH than others, outwardly (by circumstances).
Yet in the most devilish of places on earth,
whoever seeks YHWH finds HIM, and there are some from every country who find HIM.

Meanwhile, "HEARING" is rejected by many, not sought and not popular, so YHWH HIMSELF sent a famine of "HEARING" the WORD OF YHWH. This too is hidden (from public view), though the results are seen by the public.