How can RCs and Protestants reconcile

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Hey Handmaiden. Papal Infallibility is an obvious one, and I can see the filioque as a sticking point, but I'm curious why the Immaculate Conception would need to be dropped in your opinion. Yes it's entirely born of Western theology, but does anyone really expect Rome to adopt Eastern theology, ever?

The dogma of the Immaculate Conception didn't exist prior to 1854, so in the grand scheme of things it's not that old. How the Bishops would decide it, I'm not sure. Perhaps it could fall under economia, but that would be for them to decide. The reason I included it in the list is because it's one of the larger dogmas that has developed since the schism.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Sounds like a good plan

So does this mean we can expect you at Divine Liturgy next week LLOJ?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So does this mean we can expect you at Divine Liturgy next week LLOJ?

Only if the Pope will accompany me and partake of the communion

 

[Mikeb85]

Hey Handmaiden. Papal Infallibility is an obvious one, and I can see the filioque as a sticking point, but I'm curious why the Immaculate Conception would need to be dropped in your opinion. Yes it's entirely born of Western theology, but does anyone really expect Rome to adopt Eastern theology, ever?

That's not Eastern Theology. That was the theology of the entire church prior to the schism. The Immaculate conception is a fairly modern innovation. Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew gives a decent explanation: http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/blog/2005/03/08/patriach-bartholomew-on-the-immaculate-conception/

 

[Musa80]

The dogma of the Immaculate Conception didn't exist prior to 1854, so in the grand scheme of things it's not that old. How the Bishops would decide it, I'm not sure. Perhaps it could fall under economia, but that would be for them to decide. The reason I included it in the list is because it's one of the larger dogmas that has developed since the schism.

I see. Basically because it's a rather large declaration made late in the game. It makes sense but I'm not sure they would ever do that because it would necessitate redefining Original Sin altogether and thats a massive and unlikely change.

 

[Mikeb85]

I see. Basically because it's a rather large declaration made late in the game. It makes sense but I'm not sure they would ever do that because it would necessitate redefining Original Sin altogether and thats a massive and unlikely change.

And accepting their theology and the dogma of the Immaculate conception (which is a recent innovation)is a massive and impossible change for the Orthodox church.

Having a relationship like the Uniates (different beliefs in the same communion) do would also be unacceptable - unity has to come from belief, not merely outward appearance...

 

[angrylittlefisherman]

Well as I understand, and my understanding is poor, immaculate conception was an attempt by the west to understand and explain how Mary was not guilty of sin but still fell under the stain of Original Sin. Essentially my understanding of it is that it was formed so that our western minds could reconcile these seemingly contradictory necessities. I hear the Saint John Maximovich (I believe it is this one The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God) is quite good in regards to explaining much of this.

 

[E.C.]

Considering the amount of thread on denominations and Catholacism, what can be done within Christianity to reconcile the main 3 sects of Christianity, primarily Orthodox, RC and Protestant.
Throw out a few ideas. Thanks

I recommend the Papal office of the Pope being downgraded to just being a Bishop of equal in Rome.

Bluntly...

The Protestants would have to return to Rome before anything. They left Rome, they did not leave the Orthodox Church. They could have returned to Orthodoxy instead of going on their own track, but history has come and gone there. The Roman Catholic Church should adopt autocephaly with the pope as their 'first among equals' guy. A lot of things would have to be done that would end in everyone becoming Orthodox IMHO.


But of course, nothing will happen without the Holy Spirit because nothing can happen without the Holy Spirit.

So essentially it would be one huge crazy awful mess and the only solution I see is that every individual should just convert to Orthodoxy. I think that would be best.

I concur.

I see. Basically because it's a rather large declaration made late in the game. It makes sense but I'm not sure they would ever do that because it would necessitate redefining Original Sin altogether and thats a massive and unlikely change.

Hey man, they got rid of Limbo not too long ago...

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Well as I understand, and my understanding is poor, immaculate conception was an attempt by the west to understand and explain how Mary was not guilty of sin but still fell under the stain of Original Sin. Essentially my understanding of it is that it was formed so that our western minds could reconcile these seemingly contradictory necessities. I hear the Saint John Maximovich (I believe it is this one The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God) is quite good in regards to explaining much of this.

In essence, it would just be easier for them to drop the whole thing and go back to the original way of doing things. Which is why we've stuck to the "tried and true" method all these years.

 

[Mikeb85]

I hear the Saint John Maximovich (I believe it is this one The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God)is quite good in regards to explaining much of this.

Yes, he does explain it well. Here's what St. John Maximovitch has to say about it:

When those who censured the immaculate life of the Most Holy Virgin had been rebuked, as well as those who denied Her Evervirginity, those who denied Her dignity as the Mother of God, and those who disdained Her icons-then, when the glory of the Mother of God had illuminated the whole universe, there appeared a teaching which seemingly exalted highly the Virgin Mary, but in reality denied all Her virtues.

This teaching is called that of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary, and it was accepted by the followers of the Papal throne of Rome.

And the whole document: http://www.ortodoks.dk/On_Orthodox_Veneration_of_the_Mary.htm#Anchor-Zea-51977

 

[Musa80]

Hey man, they got rid of Limbo not too long ago...

Yeah but limbo was never actually dogma as far as I know. Dropping pious beliefs is one thing. Dogma is quite another. Then again, if they drop the Infallibility nonsense, I guess the gate is wide open for many needed changes.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Only if the Pope will accompany me and partake of the communion

Well the Pope has done Vespers with us. How about you?

 

[sunlover1]

Ooh! Pick me! I know, I know!

The RCC and the Protestants can reconcile when they begin believing the same things.

Me thinks we better not wait for hell to freeze over.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=50529894#_ftn1
http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=50529894#_ftnref1



20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=50529894#_ftn1
http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=50529894#_ftnref1

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Bluntly...


Hey man, they got rid of Limbo not too long ago...

Not in Jamaica

 

[E.C.]

Yeah but limbo was never actually dogma as far as I know. Dropping pious beliefs is one thing. Dogma is quite another. Then again, if they drop the Infallibility nonsense, I guess the gate is wide open for many needed changes.

Dropping Infallibility would also help bring the Old Catholics back to the Roman Church .


All we can do is pray the Holy Spirit will work in Rome to return her to Orthodoxy. Well, that and let the bishops figure it out as it is their job to figure out things like this.

 

[E.C.]

Not in Jamaica

ROFLMAO!

 

[Musa80]

Yes, he does explain it well. Here's what St. John Maximovitch has to say about it:



And the whole document: http://www.ortodoks.dk/On_Orthodox_Veneration_of_the_Mary.htm#Anchor-Zea-51977

Thanks for the linkage. This looks very cool.

 

[mystery4]

Considering the amount of thread on denominations and Catholacism, what can be done within Christianity to reconcile the main 3 sects of Christianity, primarily Orthodox, RC and Protestant.
Throw out a few ideas. Thanks

I recommend the Papal office of the Pope being downgraded to just being a Bishop of equal in Rome.

The simple answer: It won't happen...

The only way you're going to get anyone to reconcile with the RCC is to reject what you have and join them, they will not compromise, especially with the current pope.

If Protestants want to see the three sects of Christianity join again, they're the ones who are going to have to compromise, they are the ones who will have to change.

 

[Rhamiel]

Hey Handmaiden. Papal Infallibility is an obvious one, and I can see the filioque as a sticking point, but I'm curious why the Immaculate Conception would need to be dropped in your opinion. Yes it's entirely born of Western theology, but does anyone really expect Rome to adopt Eastern theology, ever?

the Filioque has been used in the West since atleast AD 300

 

[Musa80]

the Filioque has been used in the West since atleast AD 300

That's going to be a hard sell since the council that made the creed that the filioque was added to, didn't occur for another 25 years.