How can Priests/Pastors forgive sins?

[Eloy Craft]

And he just lies to the others.

Nope forgiveness of God id given. The person must be sorry for the sin and not want to do it again. If they arent sorry and still love the sin they arent able to receive forgiveness

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yes but i haven't delved very far into them..

There is a reason for that.. much of what I read seems very worldly, this pope didn't like that pope who didn't think this pope blah blah blah .

So caring all the whys and wherefore were rather.. I don't know just didn't seem important. Church history reads like a soap opera.

What was important to me was learning Scripture.

The Seven Ecumenical Councils all occurred between 325 and 787 AD. There wasn't any "this pope didn't like that pope" involved in any of them, for one, because there was no "pope" as we understand that term today.

The First Council of Nicea addressed the Arian controversy, and asserted that Jesus Christ is of the same Being as the Father, truly God.

The First Council of Constantinople addressed the Pneumatomachi or Macedonian controversy, they are sometimes known as Semi-Arians; they denied the Deity of the Holy Spirit. As such the Council asserted that the Holy Spirit is Lord and God, and reaffirmed the creed drawn up at Nicea, amending it to include a longer statement about the Holy Spirit: that we believe "in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, and who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified. He spoke through the prophets."

The Council of Ephesus addressed the Nestorian controversy, and sided with Cyril of Alexandria that Christ was one Hypostasis and Person.

The Council of Chalcedon addressed the Eutychian controversy, asserting that the one indivisible Person of Jesus Christ is both truly God and truly man, without any confusion of His two natures. Drawing up the Definition of Chalcedon.

The Second Council of Constantinople had some lofty goals, but had some other side effects. The sum of what it accomplished is perhaps best said that it reaffirmed the previous two Councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon; which in turn did not exactly help in any future hope of reconciling the Persian Church (which considered Theodore of Mopsuestia one her major theological doctors, he was condemned here), and it didn't accomplish the intended goal of reconciling the Non-Chalcedonian Churches (the Oriental Orthodox). But is largely remembered for its reaffirmation of Chalcedonian Christology.

The Third Council of Constantinople addressed the Monothelite controversy. The Monothelites were a kind of "soft" Monophysite. They accepted the Diaphysite position of Chalcedon (Jesus has two natures in His one Person), but they argued that Jesus had one will (mono "one" + thelo "will"), a Divine will. This council again reaffirmed the position of Chalcedon and insisted that Jesus, on account of His two natures, had two wills, human and Divine, but that these will were always united and in agreement, without any confusion, without conflict.

The Second Council of Nicea addressed the Iconoclast controversy. The Byantine Empire at the time had been suffering losses at the hands of the Muslim armies, and Emperor Leo sought to understand why the Romans were losing and the Ummayads (and Abbasids after them) winning; Leo concluded that it was because the Muslims did not use sacred images in their religion. So Leo banned sacred images, and sought to have them destroyed (Iconoclast = eikon "image" + klaein "smash" or "break"). This met with considerable (and obvious) pushback from the Church. And this council asserted that images of Christ and the saints were not in violation of the commandment against making graven images of God, since Christ was human, and obviously the saints are human; but that images of the Father and the Holy Spirit are not acceptable since God is, in His Essence, invisible and incomprehensible, and we can only see and meet God face to face in the Person of the Son: Jesus.

These are the Seven Ecumenical Councils. There were other councils, mostly local synods; and there were councils that were embraced by some and not others, but when people talk about the Seven Ecumenical Councils it's these, and that's it. And none of them had to do with the pope. In fact all of them took place in the Christian East, not the West; and the only major contribution from the Bishop of Rome I am aware of is the Second Council of Constantinople with the Tome of St. Leo.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

All these posts and yet none ponder the difference between being forgiven in this age vs. being forgiven on judgement day. Only Jesus' death atones for sins on judgement day.

But, does anyone think about what it means to be forgiven in this age?

 

[Fish14]

hmmm, an option? We don't make these things up.

I'm talking about interpreting that passage. It will contradict with the rest of the Bible, if you end up with an interpretation where people atone sins for God.

 

[JIMINZ]

All these posts and yet none ponder the difference between being forgiven in this age vs. being forgiven on judgement day. Only Jesus' death atones for sins on judgement day.

But, does anyone think about what it means to be forgiven in this age?

.
It would appear as though you have something pretty profound you would like to share..........You have the floor.

 

[Eloy Craft]

I'm talking about interpreting that passage. It will contradict with the rest of the Bible, if you end up with an interpretation where people atone sins for God.

Who's attaching that meaning to it? What I'm meaning is that when it comes to this subject it's not just a matter of choosing what we think it should mean because this is a reality for Christians. The forgiveness ministered by the Priest is something experienced for 2000 years now. Someone can't come along and say....nope a Priest can't do that... Truth happens, and for those who it happens to someone saying it don't will just get a raised eyebrow. Truth happens and the Church does it's best to explain what is revealed. These explanations aren't intellectual concoctions they're what Jesus meant when He said to Nicodemus, " we preach what we see"

 

[Fish14]

Who's attaching that meaning to it? What I'm meaning is that when it comes to this subject it's not just a matter of choosing what we think it should mean because this is a reality for Christians. The forgiveness ministered by the Priest is something experienced for 2000 years now. Someone can't come along and say....nope a Priest can't do that... Truth happens, and for those who it happens to someone saying it don't will just get a raised eyebrow. Truth happens and the Church does it's best to explain what is revealed. These explanations aren't intellectual concoctions they're what Jesus meant when He said to Nicodemus, " we preach what we see"

It's a bit unclear to me what you believe. In your opinion, when people ask forgiveness from priests, can they give it? The cornerstone and stumbling block of Christianity is Christ's atonement. We must trust in it, and we're saved. No pastors or priests are needed in this, apart from teaching about salvation to people. The power of priests to "forgive" sins is only a testimony that they "have been forgiven" by God in the past. In the exact same way, baptism isn't for the forgiveness of the sins, but it is a visible sign and symbol about their being already forgiven. This issue divides Christians into Orthodox/Catholics and Protestans and is extremely important. The real answer, that only Jesus forgives people directly, is too hard to digest at least for some Catholics. Salvation is such a simple and fun thing, that people add all kinds of doctrine in it to make it appear more "religious". I'm not accusing you of this yet, because I haven't understood your beliefs completely.

 

[Eloy Craft]

It's a bit unclear to me what you believe. In your opinion, when people ask forgiveness from priests, can they give it? The cornerstone and stumbling block of Christianity is Christ's atonement. We must trust in it, and we're saved. No pastors or priests are needed in this, apart from teaching about salvation to people. The power of priests to "forgive" sins is only a testimony that they "have been forgiven" by God in the past. In the exact same way, baptism isn't for the forgiveness of the sins, but it is a visible sign and symbol about their being already forgiven. This issue divides Christians into Orthodox/Catholics and Protestans and is extremely important. The real answer, that only Jesus forgives people directly, is too hard to digest at least for some Catholics. Salvation is such a simple and fun thing, that people add all kinds of doctrine in it to make it appear more "religious". I'm not accusing you of this yet, because I haven't understood your beliefs completely.

I believe that the primary mission of the Apostles, and the Church they founded, is to reconcile the world to God. So, the forgiveness of sins is also the primary objective. The means by which the Church established to carry out that mission is the Sacraments. These trully are visible signs because what they signify they accomplish. God isn't boxed in by the sacraments because He can do what He pleases but they guarantee that God will act. What you describe as a visible sign is not a visible sign. A symbol doesn't signify anything if what it signifies is a symbol. It's a symbol of a symbol. God knows we need a sign of His participation seeing through a dark lens as we do. When a Catholic goes to confession we experience God's forgiveness as a reality. There is no debate or confusion about it. This is true about the teachings of the Church. The obedience to Christ such as the breaking of Bread brought real changes in our souls that couldn't be accomplished by our own doing. They are mysteries that the Church has explained as best as she can. These are our teachings. We don't teach what our intellect establishes as true, we believe what the Holy Spirit reveals. We don't just find them in accord with Scriptures, they open hidden layers of depth in Scriptures so we come to know a little bit more of that "all truth" promised. These are things that you would deny are there but we understand you just can't see them. Your faith founded on protest blinds you to them. Frankly when I hear protestants say "that is no where in Scripture" I think 'why don't they understand you can't build truth on error?. So, your claims of 'this can't be or that' you aren't able to substantiate because you argue with a Church that teaches from a deeper understanding of Scripture that isn't mixed with error. Jesus told Nicodemus that 'we' teach from what we see'. This is how the truth is revealed to the Catholic Church.

 

[Hazelelponi]

believe that the primary mission of the Apostles, and the Church they founded, is to reconcile the world to God

Ohhh I get it now.. I see exactly where the difference is.

Thank you. I finally got the main fork in the road. You know it's weird, because I've said the Catholic church is too concerned with world affairs and has always been in history, but I guess it never dawned on me that was a theological difference.

Many Christians have this same theological difference.

I get it..

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

.
It would appear as though you have something pretty profound you would like to share..........You have the floor.

My post was to get people to ponder/think about the difference between and the result of forgiveness in this age vs. the next age. None has thought/considered this. Instead people just want to argue in circles their long argued ideas of what they have been taught.

As to the floor, my post has been left unanswered many posts ago.

You will get two sides here for an answer.
1) Only Jesus forgives.
2) Scripture says some in the church can forgive.

They are both correct.
1) Only Jesus atones for the eternal consequences of our sin.
2) There are earthly consequences of sin. Pastors and elders can forgive these as James writes.

James 5:13 Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Your faith founded on protest blinds you to them. Frankly when I hear protestants say "that is no where in Scripture" I think 'why don't they understand you can't build truth on error?. So, your claims of 'this can't be or that' you aren't able to substantiate because you argue with a Church that teaches from a deeper understanding of Scripture that isn't mixed with error. Jesus told Nicodemus that 'we' teach from what we see'. This is how the truth is revealed to the Catholic Church.

Do you really think this is a convincing argument? Are you so enamored with your church that you think it always without error? Recent events in the RCC should prove no church pure. You label reformers "protesters" and think your slander truth.

The most glaring of your errors is to call one who follows scripture as one who "build truth on error".

 

[Eloy Craft]

Do you really think this is a convincing argument? Are you so enamored with your church that you think it always without error? Recent events in the RCC should prove no church pure. You label reformers "protesters" and think your slander truth.

The most glaring of your errors is to call one who follows scripture as one who "build truth on error".

The Truth belonged to a community on earth. It taught a doctrine without error. Does that community still exist? Does following the bible guarantee a doctrine without error? Can Truth be built on error?

 

[Eloy Craft]

The most glaring of your errors is to call one who follows scripture as one who "build truth on error".

Is there one that everything believed and taught is without error? Is the Truth without error taught anywhere on earth?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

It's a bit unclear to me what you believe. In your opinion, when people ask forgiveness from priests, can they give it? The cornerstone and stumbling block of Christianity is Christ's atonement. We must trust in it, and we're saved. No pastors or priests are needed in this, apart from teaching about salvation to people. The power of priests to "forgive" sins is only a testimony that they "have been forgiven" by God in the past. In the exact same way, baptism isn't for the forgiveness of the sins, but it is a visible sign and symbol about their being already forgiven. This issue divides Christians into Orthodox/Catholics and Protestans and is extremely important. The real answer, that only Jesus forgives people directly, is too hard to digest at least for some Catholics. Salvation is such a simple and fun thing, that people add all kinds of doctrine in it to make it appear more "religious". I'm not accusing you of this yet, because I haven't understood your beliefs completely.

I am not Catholic, but let me try to help. You argue scripture against another's scripture. There is scripture for both sides, so I believe those having a hard time to digest are those on your side because you are the ones dismissing scripture. For once the Catholics are standing by scripture. I don't blame you because the biggest stumbling block is over what is forgiveness. This is the crux of the divide. It is not taught and I don't even think churches have a good understanding of the different aspects of forgiveness.

I will start with a question to you. How many times does a sin have to be forgiven? You seem to think only once, by Jesus for eternal life. But such an answer ignores multiple texts in scripture. Jesus taught everyone to forgive in the Lord's prayer. Jesus gave authority to apostles to forgive. James teaches elders to take confessions, forgive and heal. Scripture also speaks of forgiveness in the Lord's Supper.

Next, consider forgiveness in two ages. You are fixated in forgiveness on judgement day where only Jesus' death can atone for our sins then. This is correct, but you ignore the need for forgiveness in this age. This is where pastors have a hand in, along with communion and our prayer of repentance in the Lord's Prayer.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

The Truth belonged to a community on earth. It taught a doctrine without error. Does that community still exist?

Are you Jewish?
Do you understand that they had even greater and explicit authority to shepherd God's people?
These same people had the Son of God put to death because he challenged their authority.
Do you learn from history, or do you just say you are always right because that is what your teacher taught you?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Is there one that everything believed and taught is without error? Is the Truth without error taught anywhere on earth?

First there is no need for any church to be without error for people to be saved. This is the glory of God's grace. There is no works test for salvation, nor a doctrine test.

There was one who taught the truth and everything he said and did was true. What he desires us to learn and know of him has been recorded. Today, it is the only place where truth can be certain without question. Do you really think there is another source for unquestioned truth? That means EVERYTHING from that source is unquestionably true. You dare to insult those who follow the Bible as basing their faith on error.

 

[Eloy Craft]

First there is no need for any church to be without error for peo

Do you really think there is another source for unquestioned truth?

Do you really think there is another source for unquestioned truth?

ple to be saved

Is there a need to be led to all truth?

There is no works test for salvation, nor a doctrine test.

To me this is a protest of my faith based on a false premise. Holding it forms a blinder.

There was one who taught the truth and everything he said and did was true.

Why did He Bother if it isn't necessary?


Jesus said He didnt leave us as orphans. Parents have Gods authority over their children as teachers. So a teaching authority that is led to all truth in a community that received it directly from Him to me, is the Church that teaches a doctrin free of error. It's a must or Truth is lost.

 

[Fish14]

I am not Catholic, but let me try to help. You argue scripture against another's scripture. There is scripture for both sides, so I believe those having a hard time to digest are those on your side because you are the ones dismissing scripture. For once the Catholics are standing by scripture. I don't blame you because the biggest stumbling block is over what is forgiveness. This is the crux of the divide. It is not taught and I don't even think churches have a good understanding of the different aspects of forgiveness.

I will start with a question to you. How many times does a sin have to be forgiven? You seem to think only once, by Jesus for eternal life. But such an answer ignores multiple texts in scripture. Jesus taught everyone to forgive in the Lord's prayer. Jesus gave authority to apostles to forgive. James teaches elders to take confessions, forgive and heal. Scripture also speaks of forgiveness in the Lord's Supper.

Next, consider forgiveness in two ages. You are fixated in forgiveness on judgement day where only Jesus' death can atone for our sins then. This is correct, but you ignore the need for forgiveness in this age. This is where pastors have a hand in, along with communion and our prayer of repentance in the Lord's Prayer.

Are we talking about the same forgiveness? I hope not.

In my opinion, forgiveness of sins in the deepest sense, concerning judgment day, is what salvation is about. Of course pastors and priests can forgive sins in another way, to restore a temporarily broken "fellowship" with God.

 

[Loren T.]

Nope forgiveness of God id given. The person must be sorry for the sin and not want to do it again. If they arent sorry and still love the sin they arent able to receive forgiveness

But he tells them they are forgiven. Can't you see how that is a problem? Man cheats on his wife, man goes to priest ,man confesses. Priests says you're forgiven. Man goes right back to cheating because he never intended to do otherwise. Man never comes to saving knowledge through Faith because he doesn't think he has to.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Man goes right back to cheating because he never intended to do otherwise. M

As I explained about receiving God's forgiveness, that man did not receive forgiveness. Either he is deceiving himself or the Priest. In this case he is sinning in the confessional. He is lying to the Priest. His confession isnt valid.