How can Priests/Pastors forgive sins?

[Phil 1:21]

"...not by works..."

Yes, no Christian believes one is saved by works only.

You'll have to point out where the word "only" appears in that passage.

 

[tz620q]

Technically, that wouldn't be correct to say now that the Catholic Church has begun insisting that even a person who has never heard of Jesus or the Bible can be saved so long as he is true to whatever non-Christian religion he belongs to.

Albion,
Your comment above says "can be saved", not "will be saved". So are you saying you believe that God is limited in his ability to save to only those who have heard of Jesus or to only those who have read a Bible? Because again, among those who have heard of Jesus and read the Bible, it does not follow that they "will be saved" only that they "can be saved".

 

[Not David]

You'll have to point out where the word "only" appears in that passage.

Interesting. Tho I am not the one who implies one is saved by works only or by faith only but by both.

 

[Albion]

It does in James tho.

No, that is not what James says. The theme of that whole book is that a PHONY Faith will not save, even if the person claims to have Faith...and we know this because a real Faith PRODUCES Works.

Everyone who believes in Sola Fide/Faith Alone as the vehicle for salvation understands that Faith, if genuine, necessarily produces a changed lifestyle in which the works of mercy, etc. that Christ taught will be in evidence. That, however, does not mean that these fruits and evidences of Faith are themselves what saves.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Interesting. Tho I am not the one who implies one is saved by works only or by faith only but by both.

Which is unscriptural.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2:8-10

 

[Albion]

Albion,
Your comment above says "can be saved", not "will be saved". So are you saying you believe that God is limited in his ability to save to only those who have heard of Jesus or to only those who have read a Bible?

Of course not. I am simply passing along what it is that God, according to his own word, does.

Because again, among those who have heard of Jesus and read the Bible, it does not follow that they "will be saved" only that they "can be saved".

Then make it "will be saved" if you think there is a significant difference. Because there is none.

If such people CAN be saved, are eligible for being saved, it means that at least some will be. Otherwise the statement would mean nothing at all.

 

[Afra]

Salvation is by faith plus works.

No, salvation is not faith plus works, and this is not what the Catholic Church teaches. You will not find any official Catholic document that states that. Read Trent and the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification. You will not find that there.

Some people, such as infants who die or people who have severe mental incapacity are incapable of performing good works, so simply as a matter of logic you can deduce that the statement is false.

 

[PaulCyp1]

Jesus Christ conferred that power when He told the Apostles,. the first priests of the one Church He founded, "Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven them". As for pastors/ministers/clergymen of other churches, they have no such power.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Interesting. Tho I am not the one who implies one is saved by works only or by faith only but by both.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

You may think this another proof text, but learn the meaning of grace to realize that we in no way work to earn salvation.

Romans 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Gifts are not earned.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

It's a little confusing to me to understand the process. Can someone explain this?

Jesus himself taught us to pray to the Father, "Forgive us our debts as we have forgiven our debtors." A pastor or priest can help us pray that petition to him, but only God forgives sins.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

It does in James tho.

Oh the book that so many use for works. Read the text and look closely. Three things jump out:

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.​

1) someone CLAIMS to have faith
2) show me your faith
3) do you want evidence of faith

1) deals with a test of true faith vs. a false faith.
2) deals with what happens after we have faith, and how we continue to live in Christ.
3) deals again with a response to having faith, will show evidence of it.

Now the hardest verse to explain is verse 22, "his faith was made complete by what he did". Just ponder that the topic in James is not of salvation, but on how we live/complete our lives in faith. This is similar to Hebrews 5:9 where it talks about Jesus being made perfect with his death. Understand that Jesus was always perfect, so Jesus made perfect is just like Abraham being made complete by what he did. It ties an action that goes with one that has true faith and follows God. We complete our lives with deeds that show evidence that our faith is true. But if Jesus parable is true, one that works very little receives salvation all the same as one that works very hard, has many deeds that show their faith is strong.

 

[JoeP222w]

I could say the same for you.

Demonstrate how I have taken it out of context.

The passage in James is referring to a believer after they have been saved, not a requirement for them to be saved. That is the context.

 

[JoeP222w]

But I don't notice even the start of a rebuttal to those verses in your reply. I wonder why.

We have established that the Bible does testify to the idea of men being authorized to declare God's forgiveness. Perhaps this would be a good time for you to go to a search engine and seek out the many commentaries that are available if you want more. Please don't ask me to paste and copy all that are available to you.

You cited entire chapters that cover a large context, not merely a couple of verses. Cite the specific verses you are referring to. I have no idea what you are referring to when you cite entire chapters, so there is no possible way to rebut what you wrote,

You appear to be unwilling to defend your position. You never established men being authorized to declare God's forgiveness. You assumed it without any specific exegetical references.

And the internet is not my primary source of reference.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I think it has been pointed out that the Jewish leaders did not believe that humans had the prerogative to forgive. Only God. In fact I think it was at that point that they considered His demise.

 

[TuxAme]

Technically, that wouldn't be correct to say now that the Catholic Church has begun insisting that even a person who has never heard of Jesus or the Bible can be saved so long as he is true to whatever non-Christian religion he belongs to.

It's not as simple as you make it out to be. The teaching is that one can be saved if they were ignorant of Christ during their life, so long as they followed the Law that is written on our hearts to the best of their ability and sought out God with a sincere heart.

 

[Eloy Craft]

You never established men being authorized to declare God's forgiveness.

Jesus saying to sinful men-sins you forgive are forgiven, sins you retain are retained-doesnt suffice?

 

[All4Christ]

Looks like this is going off to a complete different topic (salvation by faith vs faith plus works) than the original purpose of this thread (how does a priest / pastor forgive sins)

 

[JIMINZ]

The laying on of hands does what the one confering the holy Spirit intends. Paul mentions Timothy's being made Paul's successor.

Timothy 2

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, for the sake of the promise of life that is in Christ Jesus,

2 To Timothy, my beloved child:

Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

3 I am grateful to God—whom I worship with a clear conscience, as my ancestors did—when I remember you constantly in my prayers night and day. 4 Recalling your tears, I long to see you so that I may be filled with joy. 5 I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that lived first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice and now, I am sure, lives in you. 6 For this reason I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands; 7 for God did not give us a spirit of cowardice, but rather a spirit of power and of love and of self-discipline.

Surely not everyone who receives the Holy Spirit is given the same gifts or same purposes for them.

Timothy 2

20 In a large house there are utensils not only of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for special use, some for ordinary. 21 All who cleanse themselves of the things I have mentioned will become special utensils, dedicated and useful to the owner of the house, ready for every good work.

.
But, that is not what you said.

 

[tz620q]

It's a little confusing to me to understand the process. Can someone explain this?

From the Catholic Catechism:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm

VI. THE SACRAMENT OF PENANCE AND RECONCILIATION

1440 Sin is before all else an offense against God, a rupture of communion with him. At the same time it damages communion with the Church. For this reason conversion entails both God's forgiveness and reconciliation with the Church, which are expressed and accomplished liturgically by the sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation.

Only God forgives sin

1441 Only God forgives sins. Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven." Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.

1442 Christ has willed that in her prayer and life and action his whole Church should be the sign and instrument of the forgiveness and reconciliation that he acquired for us at the price of his blood. But he entrusted the exercise of the power of absolution to the apostolic ministry which he charged with the "ministry of reconciliation." The apostle is sent out "on behalf of Christ" with "God making his appeal" through him and pleading: "Be reconciled to God."

Reconciliation with the Church

1443 During his public life Jesus not only forgave sins, but also made plain the effect of this forgiveness: he reintegrated forgiven sinners into the community of the People of God from which sin had alienated or even excluded them. A remarkable sign of this is the fact that Jesus receives sinners at his table, a gesture that expresses in an astonishing way both God's forgiveness and the return to the bosom of the People of God.

1444 In imparting to his apostles his own power to forgive sins the Lord also gives them the authority to reconcile sinners with the Church. This ecclesial dimension of their task is expressed most notably in Christ's solemn words to Simon Peter: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of the apostles united to its head."

1445 The words bind and loose mean: whomever you exclude from your communion, will be excluded from communion with God; whomever you receive anew into your communion, God will welcome back into his. Reconciliation with the Church is inseparable from reconciliation with God."

 

[JIMINZ]

I did assume that you understood that not everyone receives the same gifts and that the Apostles chose successors and layed hands on them to confer the Grace to fill the office.

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I believe you are the Assumption, that only the Bishops through the supposed direct line from the Apostles are the only ones having been given this gift?

From what you said, were these Successors also Apostles, owing to the fact the one conferring the Gift was himself an Apostle?

How then is the gift transferred because.

1Co. 12:18
But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

1Co 12:28,29
28) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29) Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

If God is the one setting these Gifts (Offices) in the body, how then does man pass it on ad infinitum, to Successors chosen either by themselves or some Council?

This is a Gift man holds, it is not a Gift which man Originated, or possess the ability to pass on, these Gifts are ordained of God through the Power of the Holy Spirit.

Paul did not pass on His Gift of Apostleship to Timothy, he only rekindled the Gift he already had, by the Laying on of Hands.

To be honest, I fully understand that what you are professing, does happen in some Denominations of Christianity, and that these Rituals are carried out according to the Traditions of said Denominations, but this is not the Norm throughout all of Christendom.