How can Priests/Pastors forgive sins?

Hazelelponi · Sep 12, 2018

David Cabrera said:
What does it have to do with what I explained?

Because i believe these two things are connected.

Jesus was leaving them. Sending them into the world to share the Gospel message in His absence, which all believers today have the responsibility to share.

He conferred upon them the Holy Spirit, which all believers today receive upon acceptance of Jesus's lordship over them as well as belief in His Life, Death, and Ressurection.

And He gave them the authority to declare sins forgiven..

It's connected. We all should also have that responsibility as well, since we have the responsibility of the Gospel..

If we can't tell people their sins are forgiven them what good does the Gospel do? (Or shall I say, what good does sharing it do?)

thecolorsblend · Sep 12, 2018

Hazelelponi said:
As to the first portion of your post, yes..your correct.

Wow. I used to be Protestant. And even I find that pretty extreme.

Hazelelponi said:
As to the second portion of your post, yeah I have now gathered that. But since scripture is an authority set over me, I need scriptural evidence..

Fair enough. I'm not attempting to persuade you. So even if scriptural evidence exists, I doubt I'd bother searching for it. I'm only trying to explain my beliefs. Others are welcome to believe anything they want.

Hazelelponi · Sep 12, 2018

thecolorsblend said:
Wow. I used to be Protestant. And even I find that pretty extreme.

Fair enough. I'm not attempting to persuade you. So even if scriptural evidence exists, I doubt I'd bother searching for it. I'm only trying to explain my beliefs. Others are welcome to believe anything they want.

Fair enough, nice speaking with you.

Not David · Sep 12, 2018

Hazelelponi said:
Because i believe these two things are connected.

Jesus was leaving them. Sending them into the world to share the Gospel message in His absence, which all believers today have the responsibility to share.

He conferred upon them the Holy Spirit, which all believers today receive upon acceptance of Jesus's lordship over them as well as belief in His Life, Death, and Ressurection.

And He gave them the authority to declare sins forgiven..

It's connected. We all should also have that responsibility as well, since we have the responsibility of the Gospel..

If we can't tell people their sins are forgiven them what good does the Gospel do? (Or shall I say, what good does sharing it do?)

No, Jesus gave them the authority to "forgive or not forgive sins" which is not related to the message of the Gospel. The Sacrament of Confession is among believers.

Hazelelponi · Sep 12, 2018

David Cabrera said:
No, Jesus gave them the authority to "forgive or not forgive sins" which is not related to the message of the Gospel. The Sacrament of Confession is among believers.

Well im not convinced the context proves that it's unrelated to the Gospel and only related to the believers confession as nothing in the text would indicate that.

The Bible says if a town does not receive those sharing the Gospel to leave and shake the dust off their feet.. (paraphrased) which is the equivalent of not forgiving in the context of sharing the Gospel.

Now, the Bible does speak of confessing our sins as believers, but nothing is saying that confessing sin is connected to the forgiveness of the verses in question and nothing indicates that our confession need be to the church...

It seems a leap to attempt the connection... although I will give it some consideration.

Eloy Craft · Sep 12, 2018

Loren T. said:
He didn't. After looking further into this verse, the implication is that ,Actually they were only declaring what God was doing.
Do you see the apostles forgiving sins anywhere else? What did they say at penecost?
Repent ye, and be immersed every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins” (Acts 2:41)

Baptism doesn't forgive sins committed after one is Baptised.

FutureAndAHope · Sep 12, 2018

Lost4words said:
John 20:23
23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Very clear instruction from Jesus. Why are you twisting it to suit what you want to believe?

No sorry mate, I am not twisting anything. If you read the whole bible you see sins are forgiven by God, not man. God would never put the authority to forgive sins in mans hands, men have varying degrees of spiritual awareness, the apostles were granted a high level of awareness, but the average man "looks on the outward appearance", God looks on the heart. Churches are full of pastors and teachers who barely even know God (some standing up for SSM and the like), let alone have the ability to be granting, or denying forgiveness of sins.

Eloy Craft · Sep 12, 2018

Loren T. said:
The priest decides...sorry. The priest can not know who merits forgiveness.

Pleasr read what I wrote more carrfuly. Your post is a response from false premises that are answered in my post.

Eloy Craft · Sep 12, 2018

FutureAndAHope said:
God would never put the authority to forgive sins in

If you believe Jesus is God then He did do just that.

FutureAndAHope · Sep 12, 2018

JIMINZ said:
.
This is just a clarification post.

Mat 6:14,15
14) For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Is this not the Retaining of someones sins, done by the General Populous?

There is a difference between forgiving and retaining a sin. Say my brother accuses me of being insane. I can forgive him for it, yet still demand that God change him. This would still bring correction down on my brother. It is retaining the sin while still offering forgiveness.

ViaCrucis · Sep 12, 2018

Hazelelponi said:
I agree there is a certain comfort in hearing we have been forgiven from another human being with Biblical knowledge, and agree this is part of what we are to do as Christians as told by the Bible.

But as we are all priests, all under His authority and sent into the world with His authority, I am confused as to why the Catholics teach it is only a select few with the ability to forgive sins..

Is not Jeremiah 3:14 speaking of us spreading the Gospel under His authority? Yes! In conjunction with Him giving them ears to hear..

So why would we not all have the same authority as apostles to forgive sins when His children need it? I'm not seeing succession taught in the Bible.

There is a priesthood of all believers, because we are all priests (Greek hiereus (singular), hiereis (plural). The English word "priest" confusingly, however, comes from the Greek word presbyteros, usually translated as "elder". The word presbyteros became presbyter in Latin, prester in Late Latin, preost in Old English, and finally priest in modern English.

A presbyteros is a pastor, as is an episkopos (bishop). The early Church recognized the pastoral office existing in bishops and presbyters, with bishops as the more senior. You can think of it this way: bishops were charged with pastoral oversight of a city or municipal area (i.e. a diocese), whereas presbyters were charged with pastoral oversight over individual congregations. The term "pastor" applies to both, since both bishops and presbyters were and are pastors.

The Office of the Keys is not a hierarchal (read: "priestly") function, it is a pastoral function. It is not acting as a hiereus, but as a pastor. The purpose is not sacerdotal, but pastoral. It is not magisterial, but ministerial.

The question isn't a matter of majesty/power, but of ministry/service. The point of the ordained ministry through which the Office of the Keys is exercised is not about having a special class of Christians, but about good order in the Church, as such the Church calls and ordains people to exercise the Office of the Keys and the ministry of Word and Sacrament for the common good of all the Faithful.

That is, at least, the Lutheran understanding.

-CryptoLutheran

FutureAndAHope · Sep 12, 2018

Eloy Craft said:
If you believe Jesus is God then He did do just that.

I prefer to believe this:

1Jn 1:7-9 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Like I said we never saw the apostle setting up booths to forgive sins, neither gave they instructions in the bible to the church to do so.

You can't extrapolate one verse out of the bible, one single verse, to mean that from time eternal men must be responsible for the forgiveness of another's sins.

ViaCrucis · Sep 12, 2018

Hazelelponi said:
So you believe spreading the Gospel has a specific office?

Not an office, but it is a charism and vocation, in Greek it is euangelistes, "evangelist" or "herald", somewhat literally "a bringer/proclaimer of good news".

-CryptoLutheran

Not David · Sep 12, 2018

FutureAndAHope said:
No sorry mate, I am not twisting anything. If you read the whole bible you see sins are forgiven by God, not man. God would never put the authority to forgive sins in mans hands, men have varying degrees of spiritual awareness, the apostles were granted a high level of awareness, but the average man "looks on the outward appearance", God looks on the heart. Churches are full of pastors and teachers who barely even know God (some standing up for SSM and the like), let alone have the ability to be granting, or denying forgiveness of sins.

Well, it wouldn't happen if everyone believes to be his or her own infallible interpreter of Scripture.

FutureAndAHope · Sep 12, 2018

While a person has faith in Jesus, their sins are forgiven, period. As the bible says "where there is no law their is no transgression". And "You have been called to liberty, only don't use that as a excuse to sin, but in love serve one another".

A christian's sin is covered by the blood of Jesus. Yet internally the Holy Spirit keeps a Christian from sin, always drawing them away from their sins. There is no way a Christian can continue to willfully sin with out God gently correcting them, and moving them away from sin. With this inner witness, I continually move away from sin, I don't need man to tell me for God's internal witness changes me.

What need to I have to visit a priest when God acts on my behalf.

Also assuming you are a catholic, why would I ever set foot in a Catholic church, where you teach false doctrines like Purgatory, and using Mary as a mediator between man and Jesus. Your church is full of man made rules.

Hazelelponi · Sep 12, 2018

ViaCrucis said:
There is a priesthood of all believers, because we are all priests (Greek hiereus (singular), hiereis (plural). The English word "priest" confusingly, however, comes from the Greek word presbyteros, usually translated as "elder". The word presbyteros became presbyter in Latin, prester in Late Latin, preost in Old English, and finally priest in modern English.

A presbyteros is a pastor, as is an episkopos (bishop). The early Church recognized the pastoral office existing in bishops and presbyters, with bishops as the more senior. You can think of it this way: bishops were charged with pastoral oversight of a city or municipal area (i.e. a diocese), whereas presbyters were charged with pastoral oversight over individual congregations. The term "pastor" applies to both, since both bishops and presbyters were and are pastors.

The Office of the Keys is not a hierarchal (read: "priestly") function, it is a pastoral function. It is not acting as a hiereus, but as a pastor. The purpose is not sacerdotal, but pastoral. It is not magisterial, but ministerial.

The question isn't a matter of majesty/power, but of ministry/service. The point of the ordained ministry through which the Office of the Keys is exercised is not about having a special class of Christians, but about good order in the Church, as such the Church calls and ordains people to exercise the Office of the Keys and the ministry of Word and Sacrament for the common good of all the Faithful.

That is, at least, the Lutheran understanding.

-CryptoLutheran

Thank you for your response.

I may ask questions later after I run through the dictionary a while..

ViaCrucis said:
Not an office, but it is a charism and vocation, in Greek it is euangelistes, "evangelist" or "herald", somewhat literally "a bringer/proclaimer of good news".

-CryptoLutheran

Is this a difference between Protestant and Catholic?

ViaCrucis · Sep 12, 2018

Hazelelponi said:
Is this a difference between Protestant and Catholic?

I don't think so--though I guess you'll need to define "Protestant" here--I think it's just biblical,

"And He gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry for building up the body of Christ," - Ephesians 4:11-12

The evangelistic vocation and charism is found in the pastoral office, however, as per 2 Timothy 4:5,

"As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry."

Part of the pastoral responsibility is the preaching of the Gospel to build up and uplift the Body of Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

thecolorsblend · Sep 12, 2018

FutureAndAHope said:
Also assuming you are a catholic, why would I ever set foot in a Catholic church, where you teach false doctrines like Purgatory, and using Mary as a mediator between man and Jesus. Your church is full of man made rules.

Those objections are full of man-made nonsense.

Alithis · Sep 12, 2018

tz620q said:
Don't you see how hypocritical it is in a thread on forgiveness to beat this drum? Since you are here on this forum and not murdered, this obviously did not happen to you. So what has hardened your heart on this issue? Hate is the opposite of love and the barrier to any true forgiveness. Please seek God's love, wherever you find it and drop these hateful attitudes.

NOTHING has hardened my heart to the lord Jesus .. but the rcc is NOT the lord Jesus it is opposed to him in its consistent denial of its sin . without repentance there is no forgiveness . as JESUS said .. repentance for the forgiveness of sin will be preached ...
repentance does not mean repetitive ongoing behaviour you admit ob a regular basis so some man can say its ok your forgiven. repentance is a turning away and not going back .a ceasing of deeds of wickedness .
to cry and say oh oh your being hateful dont say mean things is just desiring to not hear or obey the truth of the matter .
oh" wimper winmper your being hateful to say to me what God says about sin ..."
sounds the same as the homosexual community .."oh that's so hateful to say its sin and we will go to hell . " yet it is the truth of all who practice sin and who suppress the truth.

what a twisting of words .. do you not know that it is in the acknowledging of our sin and repentance from it that salvation comes to us and we are then and only then able to enter into the promises of life made by God and made available to us through obedience to the gospel of JESUS.
the truth is
to be silent and NOT say it ..-that, would be hateful .

FutureAndAHope · Sep 12, 2018

thecolorsblend said:
Those objections are full of man-made nonsense.

So your church does not teach Purgatory any more, nor the mediator role of Mary? I am surprised.

How can Priests/Pastors forgive sins?

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