How can omniscience & omnipotence be compatible with free will?

Cieza · Jul 25, 2011

LostMarbels said:
This has been an ongoing subject for years. I have never come to undesrtand why free will is such a hard concept to understand. I mean, the very ability of choice, reasoning, and to make a decision is in of itself free will. The ability to debate, and even take a stance on a certian matter is a choice. We must purposefully decide to take any action. Wether we smoke, drink, party, or live on the total oppisite of the gammbit, we decide who we are. By social patterning, learned behavioral traits, and habits we form our own being. We create our own phyches by our system of belifes, and moral conduct. We learn to be us. No matter what life may present us, it is our own idividual response, thoughts and prossesing of these events that determin our own individuality. Not one human being is a robot that must do anything. There is always a choice, and a consecuence. Good or bad. There is always a choice and a result. We are a unique taxom with inate abilities, and boundless posibilities. The human mind is a marvel..... every one of has one, and yet it's capabilities can not hope to as of yet be grasped. Its total crap for anyone to say we do not control our own destinies. Crap, crap, crap. Dont belive it? No hand of God is ever going to come down and stop you from making any certian decision. Even against all the survival systems evolved into man, you can still decide to take your own life. Or that of another. or give life. Love, forgivness...... YOUR CHOICE.

So lets go back to Pete. Pete's cool, I like Pete. So he has the ability to chose A or B. So lets say he picks K, (just go wtih it..... A & B sucks!) So he picks K, and decides to run with it. So in a logical debate, where, and at what point dose he not have free will. Why can't he pick K? No matter what he decides to do.... Pete still made the choice. Now lets put God in this. All knowing, all present. Any of ya seen Source Code? Cool movie. Lets look at it like this...... God is the dude getting the bomb, we are the passengers on the train, totaly unaware of Gods knowledge of the situation, or even that there are different choices to different outcomes. But just like the dude on the train, God has bounced around and saw the different outcomes, becoming all knowing, and all present having been in more than one thread at a once, and by knowing the outcome of any particular thread by having been there. So by being all powerful, and all present God is able to already know any possible outcome, of any choice or decision Pete will make. Just like the coffee spilling on The dudes shoe. Or the phone call, ect, ect

Ok..... now its time to let out my inner geek. Reality is subjective, therefore there are as many realities as there are sentient beings. There is some talk in physics about parallel universes but it is just talk, speculation driven by ambiguities in the interpretation of mathematical models or by the intractability of the remaining physics problems. We still lack a model for the masses of particles and we lack a synthesis between general relativity and quantum mechanics. Creative model making in mathematical physics requires wild speculation about extra degrees of mathematical freedom and how they might be interpreted but it is a mistake when such talk is shared with the public because it has no credibility, however A team of astrophysicists based in Australia and England has uncovered evidence that the laws of physics are different in different parts of the universe. This is astounding, what if all options are posible? What if A, B, and K were all played out within there own plane....... pretty cool huh?

Now... Here's a choke point for alot of people. God can do anything, but there are things he will refuse to do. God will never at any point for any reason give homage to any other god, lie, partake of sin, entertain evil, tempt mankind to evil or sin, nor break an oath or his word. These things He has swore to by his own mouth. Hope this helps.............

Thanks for the response. The issue here is if God is all knowing & all powerful, then he not only would know that Pete will choose K instead of A or B prior to Pete making the choice, but he could tell Pete that he will choose K prior to his making the choice. But the second part isn't quite as critical. What is material is that God knows at a point in PETE'S TIMELINE prior to Pete's decision what Pete will decide. Since everything in Pete's timeline that has already occurred becomes part of history, then if God knows on day 1 that Pete will choose K while Pete still has a free will choice to choose on day 3 either K, A or B, then there is potential that God's foreknowledge could be compromised - making him less than omniscient.

LostMarbels · Jul 25, 2011

GrayAngel said:
First off, if you can't find a Biblical basis for your beliefs, then I'm not very interested. All of my beliefs about God and life are based on what the Bible teaches. Atheists talk logic, but we Christians have the Bible as our higher authority.

I do confess Jesus Christ as lord, and the word come of the flesh. I have found that sometimes if you put down the bible, you get to the heart of the situation without having to debate a bunch of scripture, before you even learn what you debateing about. I do have a bibical basis tho.

GrayAngel said:
Also, while some will get flared up on the discussion of free will vs predestination, it's important that we realize the triviality of our position. The gospel is the center of our faith, and anything else is secondary. Whether we believe in free will or predestination, it won't drastically determine the way we live.

Can not agree more, awsome insight.

GrayAngel said:
1. To understand my view of predestination, it may be best to imagine reality in two levels. The first is our human level. We have a "will" (ie an emotionally driven will to act). Our will is not "free", but its easy to see an illusion of free will due to our place in the world. We live in time, with total ignorance of what is to come.

Again I agree with you. There may be many different 'planes' of reality. I hold the belief that it may even be possible for the laws of physics, time, ect, to even be found to be differnt in our own plane of exsistance. Who knows? Have we discovered all the laws of physics? Do we know everything?

But on the part where you belive that free will is an illusion, I belive that cheapens Christ's life, and death. The gospel becomes a lie if only a few chosen can recive it. What happens to the free gift of God which is grace through Christ Jesus to all who recive him, if it is unatainable? This flies in the face of 'redemmed by grace'. Why did Jesus die then? One would think God could just pick and choise without comming to earth to die at the hands of his own creation. None of this makes any sense at all from a bibical gospel point of veiw.

GrayAngel said:
The second is God's level. He lives outside of time. Nothing is a surprise to Him, because He sees all time layed out in front of Him. Our will is the product of His design. He created the two essential parts of us: our biology and our environment. Our environment determines our nature, and our environment teaches us how to behave, but both work together to mold us.

This is an intresting point of veiw, and I have actualy read on the subject studying Ivan Pavlov concerning nurture vrs nature. Pavlov came up with the term of conditional reflex, meaning a learned behavioral trait. He was able to condition both dogs, and hummans to respond to certian stimuli in detreminable, and recordable responses. However, I still believe the idividual taxom in question, being either a dog, humman, or otherwise is the determinig factor. For example, if you take a tiger cub from birth, never having know the wild, and raise it in your house. You will be living with a wild tiger in your house. Not matter what you do you cannot retrain DNA to act another way. We are mankind, and no matter what we will act like wise. So with that being said I believe that eviromental factors are not the deciding force on who we become. God may influence us, but we must choise to 'become' anything

GrayAngel said:
God was not an ignorant designer. He knew the full result of His creation, from beginning to end, which means everything was done intentionally. Everything we do is a part of His plan.

Agreed. But the question I have is what do you think his plan is? Dommination?

Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
In the world of mankind: He gives breath to the people upon it, not only air to breathe in, but the breath of life itself and he gives spirit, the powers and faculties of a rational soul, and mind to those that walk therein. Now this is prefixed to God's covenant with the Messiah, and the commission given him, not only to show that he has authority to make such a covenant and give such a commission, but that the design of God's work of redemption was to maintain the honour of the Creator, and to restore man to the allegiance he owes to God as his Maker. This is a bond, a union of God with his creation, not a dictation and, and, and God has given his creation the commision to be a light to the gentiles. He's not forceing the gentiles. It is also written that by the foolishness of preaching,God srpeads the gospel. God has given us all the resources to make a decsion.

GrayAngel said:
2. Yes. I can change my mind. But whether or not I would change my mind was already decided. From my level of reality, I chose to change my mind, but at God's level of reality, He already knew and determined for me to change my mind.

Same as the way the gospel spreads. We can plant the seeds in someone's mind, but only God has the power to make it grow.

True to a point. We have the right to not listen to God's call. we can refuse the teachings just like the parable of the seeds on hard soil. Grow quickly, than fade away.

Why did Jesus go threw so much crap for nothing? Why did he Preach the sermon on the mount, teach parables, teach us to pray if it is meaningless?
I cannot grasp the theroy of predestination.

GrayAngel said:
3. I'm a Christian, currently attending a Baptist church. But I have had background in Pentecostal, Lutheran, and multiple non-denominational churches. Heck, I was even involved with a cult for a short period of time, so I've considered several different points of view. I don't like to call myself a Baptist, however, because my denomination is not as important to me as the gospel I believe in.

If you want to talk logic, then answer this question for me please:

From my point of view, if God gave us free will, which He refuses to touch, then His credibility becomes weaker. The Bible says that God has a plan for us. Well, if all He's doing is observing us do our thing, then what worth is His plan?

First of all, we are the creation, not the creator.... our own points of veiw are meanningless. Our opinons are worthless assumptions, nothing more than the filty rags of our works.

Second, you have absolutly no basis at all to do with the credibility of God. None.

If you look into it you will find that he has sent us the holy spirit as a guide, and a teacher to help us with life. Jesus testify's, us to the Father, claiming us for himself by the promise of God bought by his own blood. The father holds fast to his word, keeping his covanents with us and answering our please.

LostMarbels · Jul 25, 2011

Cieza said:
Thanks for the response. The issue here is if God is all knowing & all powerful, then he not only would know that Pete will choose K instead of A or B prior to Pete making the choice, but he could tell Pete that he will choose K prior to his making the choice. But the second part isn't quite as critical. What is material is that God knows at a point in PETE'S TIMELINE prior to Pete's decision what Pete will decide. Since everything in Pete's timeline that has already occurred becomes part of history, then if God knows on day 1 that Pete will choose K while Pete still has a free will choice to choose on day 3 either K, A or B, then there is potential that God's foreknowledge could be compromised - making him less than omniscient.

You forgot about the dog eating the Skittles.

Hakan101 · Jul 25, 2011

Cieza said:
Thanks for the response. The issue here is if God is all knowing & all powerful, then he not only would know that Pete will choose K instead of A or B prior to Pete making the choice, but he could tell Pete that he will choose K prior to his making the choice. But the second part isn't quite as critical. What is material is that God knows at a point in PETE'S TIMELINE prior to Pete's decision what Pete will decide. Since everything in Pete's timeline that has already occurred becomes part of history, then if God knows on day 1 that Pete will choose K while Pete still has a free will choice to choose on day 3 either K, A or B, then there is potential that God's foreknowledge could be compromised - making him less than omniscient.

There is something I don't understand. Why do you think Pete's choice would be different than what God knows he is going to choose? Pete has free will to choose whatever letter he wants, but God knows that Pete will use his free will to choose K before the choice has been made. Pete doesn't know because he hasn't decided yet, but God knows because of his omniscience.

Cieza · Jul 25, 2011

Hakan101 said:
There is something I don't understand. Why do you think Pete's choice would be different than what God knows he is going to choose? Pete has free will to choose whatever letter he wants, but God knows that Pete will use his free will to choose K before the choice has been made. Pete doesn't know because he hasn't decided yet, but God knows because of his omniscience.

Let's simplify this and say it's an A/B choice. On day 1, God knows what Pete's day 3 A/B choice will be. It therefore becomes a part of history on Pete's day 1 that someone other than Pete knew what he would choose on day 3. This someone else could know he's going to choose A or he's going to choose B. Since Pete hasn't yet made his choice, there are four permutations of what can happen.

1) God knows Pete will choose A and Pete chooses A
2) God knows Pete will choose A and Pete chooses B
3) God knows Pete will choose B and Pete chooses A
4) God knows Pete will choose B and Pete chooses B

As you can see, God will correctly guess Pete's choice about 50% of the time.

Hakan101 · Jul 25, 2011

Cieza said:
Let's simplify this and say it's an A/B choice. On day 1, God knows what Pete's day 3 A/B choice will be. It therefore becomes a part of history on Pete's day 1 that someone other than Pete knew what he would choose on day 3. This someone else could know he's going to choose A or he's going to choose B. Since Pete hasn't yet made his choice, there are four permutations of what can happen.

1) God knows Pete will choose A and Pete chooses A
2) God knows Pete will choose A and Pete chooses B
3) God knows Pete will choose B and Pete chooses A
4) God knows Pete will choose B and Pete chooses B

As you can see, God will correctly guess Pete's choice about 50% of the time.

But you didn't answer my question, why do you think Pete's choice would be different at all from what God knew Pete would choose? I don't see how there would even be four permutations. Either God knows Pete will choose A and Pete chooses A, or God knows he will choose B and Pete chooses B.

SonOfTheWest · Jul 25, 2011

Cieza said:
Let's simplify this and say it's an A/B choice. On day 1, God knows what Pete's day 3 A/B choice will be. It therefore becomes a part of history on Pete's day 1 that someone other than Pete knew what he would choose on day 3. This someone else could know he's going to choose A or he's going to choose B. Since Pete hasn't yet made his choice, there are four permutations of what can happen.

1) God knows Pete will choose A and Pete chooses A
2) God knows Pete will choose A and Pete chooses B
3) God knows Pete will choose B and Pete chooses A
4) God knows Pete will choose B and Pete chooses B

As you can see, God will correctly guess Pete's choice about 50% of the time.

And given what qualities classic Christianity gives to God, he's spared the work of guessing. Poor Pete only seems to make a choice from his own persepective. He's "choice" in such a case is as preordained as well...EVERYTHING. And his "choice" is merely an illusion but seemingly free will due to no more than Pete's limited nature. Course....omniscience locks God in just as much as Pete but his still superior capabilities puts in an arguably more pleasant position than little ole Pete.

LostMarbels · Jul 25, 2011

Please site your source on how you know god will react in this way. Also.... are A & B the only varibles?

Hakan101 · Jul 25, 2011

SonOfTheWest said:
And given what qualities classic Christianity gives to God, he's spared the work of guessing. Poor Pete only seems to make a choice from his own persepective. He's "choice" in such a case is as preordained as well...EVERYTHING. And his "choice" is merely an illusion but seemingly free will due to no more than Pete's limited nature. Course....omniscience locks God in just as much as Pete but his still superior capabilities puts in an arguably more pleasant position than little ole Pete.

This is what you told me before, but how is Pete's choice preordained just because God knows what it will be? He hasn't decided what Pete's choice will be, he's given Pete free will to do that. He just knows what will happen. Pete's choice is foreseen by God, not preordained.

LostMarbels · Jul 25, 2011

One would have to argue that within the constraints provided, by your logic, this is a possible outcome. However, is the OP about how the christian God is understood by christians in his ability to be both omnipotent and omnipresent within the realm of free will. Or is this about what constraints you can oppose upon us to prove God failable.

SonOfTheWest · Jul 25, 2011

LostMarbels said:
One would have to argue that within the constraints provided, by your logic, this is a possible outcome. However, is the OP about how the christian God is understood by christians in his ability to be both omnipotent and omnipresent within the realm of free will. Or is this about what constraints you can oppose upon us to prove God failable.

The position I take is that such Christians are simply playing word games. Or worse simply creating confusion by using "omnipotence" in a manner that is not consistent at all with what "omnipotence" means and would be better served using a more accurate term. But I usually don't debate in regards to both since I think it is quite open and shut that they are incompatable. In discussions of "free will" I think omniscience does quite enough of a good job to render the classic idea of free will as null and void.

LostMarbels · Jul 25, 2011

SonOfTheWest said:
The position I take is that such Christians are simply playing word games. Or worse simply creating confusion by using "omnipotence" in a manner that is not consistent at all with what "omnipotence" means and would be better served using a more accurate term. But I usually don't debate in regards to both since I think it is quite open and shut that they are incompatable. In discussions of "free will" I think omniscience does quite enough of a good job to render the classic idea of free will as null and void.

Why do you think this way? I f you want to discuse belifes in odere to understand one another, Im game. but besides that I could not care less to prove a point. I honestly dont care who agree's with me.

Read my other post to see my point of veiw

Fine.... Gods not Omnipotent. There is no free will.

WHY?
HOW DO WE COM TO THIS CONCLUSION?

GrayAngel · Jul 25, 2011

Cieza said:
Let's simplify this and say it's an A/B choice. On day 1, God knows what Pete's day 3 A/B choice will be. It therefore becomes a part of history on Pete's day 1 that someone other than Pete knew what he would choose on day 3. This someone else could know he's going to choose A or he's going to choose B. Since Pete hasn't yet made his choice, there are four permutations of what can happen.

1) God knows Pete will choose A and Pete chooses A
2) God knows Pete will choose A and Pete chooses B
3) God knows Pete will choose B and Pete chooses A
4) God knows Pete will choose B and Pete chooses B

As you can see, God will correctly guess Pete's choice about 50% of the time.

I don't think the question is if someone can contradict God's foreknowledge, but it's who is the one in control. We all believe that God knows the future, and we cannot make Him wrong. However, some don't believe that that means God causes us to make decisions.

I'll write more replies later when I'm less distracted.

Cieza · Jul 25, 2011

Hakan101 said:
But you didn't answer my question, why do you think Pete's choice would be different at all from what God knew Pete would choose? I don't see how there would even be four permutations. Either God knows Pete will choose A and Pete chooses A, or God knows he will choose B and Pete chooses B.

Why will Pete's choice be different from what God knows? Because what God knows has been established and is set as part of history at a point in time prior to when Pete exercises his free choice between A or B.

Cieza · Jul 25, 2011

SonOfTheWest said:
And given what qualities classic Christianity gives to God, he's spared the work of guessing. Poor Pete only seems to make a choice from his own persepective. He's "choice" in such a case is as preordained as well...EVERYTHING. And his "choice" is merely an illusion but seemingly free will due to no more than Pete's limited nature. Course....omniscience locks God in just as much as Pete but his still superior capabilities puts in an arguably more pleasant position than little ole Pete.

Let's say you have a free choice between A & B. You end up choosing A. Up until the time you actually make the choice, could you still have chosen B?

SonOfTheWest · Jul 25, 2011

Cieza said:
Let's say you have a free choice between A & B. You end up choosing A. Up until the time you actually make the choice, could you still have chosen B?

If under the assumption you mean B is in that entire time frame a valid option yes. Of course that question also works under an assumption of putting aside all this omniscience, supernaturally based free will stuff.

Cieza · Jul 25, 2011

LostMarbels said:
Please site your source on how you know god will react in this way. Also.... are A & B the only varibles?

I'm using an A/B choice to keep the illustration simple. It could be a Wheaties vs. Cheerios choice, a Ford vs. Chevy vs. Honda choice, a McDonalds vs. Wendy's vs. Carl's Jr. vs. Burger King choice, etc. A/B keeps it simple.

Cieza · Jul 25, 2011

LostMarbels said:
One would have to argue that within the constraints provided, by your logic, this is a possible outcome. However, is the OP about how the christian God is understood by christians in his ability to be both omnipotent and omnipresent within the realm of free will. Or is this about what constraints you can oppose upon us to prove God failable.

I don't need or want to prove anything to others. I only know that many people believe the Christian God to be real and that I've run a flawless test which shows that it is impossible for someone or something to have infallible foreknowledge of the outcome of freely made choices.

Hakan101 · Jul 25, 2011

Cieza said:
Why will Pete's choice be different from what God knows? Because what God knows has been established and is set as part of history at a point in time prior to when Pete exercises his free choice between A or B.

What do you mean by "set as a part of history?" Do you mean in the past, as in before the future where Pete makes his choice?

I still don't understand, you haven't fully answered it. God knows Pete's choice before he makes it, Pete has free will, therefore Pete will freely choose that which God knew he would. How could it be any other way?

Cieza · Jul 25, 2011

SonOfTheWest said:
If under the assumption you mean B is in that entire time frame a valid option yes. Of course that question also works under an assumption of putting aside all this omniscience, supernaturally based free will stuff.

No assumptions are necessary. It's a simple yes/no question.

Let's say you have a free choice between A & B. You end up choosing A. Up until the time you actually make the choice, could you still have chosen B?

How can omniscience & omnipotence be compatible with free will?

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