How can Mary be sinless > 1 John 4:3

[Standing Up]

So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, that God gave him another heart; and all those signs came to pass that day. 1 Samuel 10:9

What does it mean to be given a new heart by God?



Why the 3 days stretch only?

I believe the saints that rose from the graves at the time of Jesus Christ's crucifixion and resurrection, were godly men who had died sometime before Christ was crucified.

So, why would they not be Adam, Abraham, David, Ezekiel, etc?

The OT saints, like the NT saints, were all "born again" by God, but are still in their graves till the resurrection of the dead.

To me, being born again is to be given a new heart and Spirit by God.

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. Ezekiel 36:26

How would that work prior to Christ's resurrection? How would it be "godly men", but not Abraham for example?

 

[Lion King]

So, why would they not be Adam, Abraham, David, Ezekiel, etc?

1. Because Peter tells us that David is dead and still in his tomb.

Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Acts 2:29


2. Because the Scriptures tell us that Christ was the first one to be resurrected to live forever (first-fruits), and everyone else will be raised at His second coming.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Matthew 27:53

How would that work prior to Christ's resurrection? How would it be "godly men", but not Abraham for example?

Not sure I understand your question. Can you expound on it a bit further?

 

[joseph10]

I guess i should give a little wisdom. Jesus was transfiguared on the mound and whom was standing there with him, the great Law giver and the preachers of rightious. Christ is the bridge between the 2 covenants. Those whom died in the first covenant are not in the grave they are in the spirit with God in heaven. There Body is in the dust or Grave. They were a forrunner of the Kingdon to come. A forshowings of Gods plan for all humanity. We are grafted into the linage of Abraham. Abraham indeed is saved. As the mighty men and woman of God whom are justified in the Law and faith of the first covenant.
He is the God of the living. We have a better covenant. Which is not of the law, We are free from the Law of God. We live by Faith not by the law.

 

[Castaway57]

How will the OT saints enter the Kingdom of God if they were not born again (John 3:3-6)?

Gen_5:22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen_5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

I would say that the scriptures are quite clear; that Enoch was converted/born again.

 

[Standing Up]

Gen_5:22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen_5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

I would say that the scriptures are quite clear; that Enoch was converted/born again. You are way off base.

FYI, LionKing would agree with you. I'm thinking they weren't "born again", until after Christ's resurrection.

 

[Standing Up]

1. Because Peter tells us that David is dead and still in his tomb.

Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Acts 2:29


2. Because the Scriptures tell us that Christ was the first one to be resurrected to live forever (first-fruits), and everyone else will be raised at His second coming.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Matthew 27:53



Not sure I understand your question. Can you expound on it a bit further?

I suspect our difference is in how we understand "born again". Apparently you believe the OT saints may be born again, but not raised at Mt. 27:56 with Christ. You think David is "born again", yet still is in his tomb. Right?

I'd say they (OT saints like Abraham, David, etc) believed God and looked forward to His Son, but until His resurrection, they could not be "born again". Once He rose, they could be "born again" and raised up with Him as part of the barley harvest (passover). Him first as firstfruits, then some of the OT people.

For us believers (of wheat-pentecost) who are born-again, we too physically die, but still await the "first resurrection".

Later is the second resurrection of the remainder.

Have to ponder it some more. We're off-thread, so should get back to Mary.

 

[Castaway57]

The simple truth is we live according to the Word of God and its instruction or we error. Did mary sin. Of course she did that is a none issue actually. No matter what we might want to think. God finished the question before it was even ask. " All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory'


Simply said why are you debating what is declared truth by God himself. God can't lie and Gods word on the matter is finished. Any other teaching on the matter is of satan the father of all lies. Which is the main issue will you believe God or Satan.

ALL ( every stinking person that ever lived in the planet). The popes the prophets the apostles and the Mary the blessed.

Traditions make the word of God of no use. If your tradition twist this simple declared truth that God himself has stated. Then indeed you can't grow in Christ for Christ has not part of a lie. Christ is the truth all else is of the evil one.

That is why i have spoke of this matter. You declare foolishness. I declare Christ the hope of all Glory. You declare Mary was sinnless. I point to the sinless one Christ. For my boast is in Christ as are my chains. You declare Mary is the mother of God. I declare Christ was slain before the foundations of the world.

"Every stinking person??????" My, what kind of theology is that? You are way off base in so many ways here.

What you say about traditions is wrong. The Bible speaks of two different types of tradition; one is OK, and the other is not. And not all catholic tradition is "wrong" or "bad." If you even just looked in their Catechism; in the section on tradition, you would see what I am saying. Saying that though; I do not really agree with everything written in the CCC on tradition, but I am trying to make a bigger point. You should too.

You say that any other teaching except what you say here is of satan; and that my friend is always wrong when someone says it.

Even what you say about the Catholic stance on Mary is inaccurate. You very obviously do not know or understand their beliefs very well. You are coming across as someone who is almost desperate to prove then wrong; and in doing so, I fear many Christians make enemies, rather than friends, and destroy any chance of rapport which would lead to an effective witness for Christ. (1 John 1:1-3).

 

[Castaway57]

You read too much into my post, LK. I was speaking generally, not to anyone here in specific. This is not the first forum or blog or whatever media mode that attacks Catholic Marian theology.

Thats how I figured you intended it when I read it.

 

[Castaway57]

i love how this thread turned into protestants argueing with each other
confused me when i walked in here again
i thought i was in gt or something

Well; I'll say one thing; I love your signature re "not all who wander are lost."

 

[Lion King]

Have to ponder it some more. We're off-thread, so should get back to Mary.

I humbly apologize for getting off topic.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Was anyone truly "born again", before Christ's resurrection? To say yes is to make null and void the whole redemption story.

Think about the ones God preserved and took to Heaven at death.
Elijah
Moses
Henoch.

So what is being said is that Mary - His own Mother who gave Him His flesh to make the salvation possible is less than all of them.

No one makes it to Heaven except those God perfected.
Mary was pre-perfected.

Just as we see no where the story of Mary getting baptized - it is assumed she was.
But the Church has always held in the early days - she was pre sanctified for the purpose of salvation.
She was the New Eve. In order to be just like the former Eve - she had to be perfect.
For the undoing of the doing that led to our separation - God mirrored the image - but this time Mary would refuse sin - unlike Eve who beget sin.

Thus if the whole family of mankind fell by two - then it would be two again - who would aid and do the salvation of mankind.

Just as Eve aided in the fall and it took the acceptance of Adam to follow along - it was Mary who beget the salvific Lord and aided in the salvation.

For this is the salvation God planned in genesis 3:15.

HER and HER SEED would be separated from evil. For evil would not touch either of them - unlike Adam and Eve who partook in them. Both of which were sinless. So for God to create and decide someone is held sinless - then that is His prerogative and His alone.

And indeed - it was His choice - and we shouldnt be saying His will is wrong - but rather seek to know why this was His will.

Which i simplified above.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

So Christ sinned joseph10?

No, He did not (2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 2:22).

 

[WarriorAngel]

And it is interesting this was moved to a section where you will again and again see non Catholic input saying the same things over and over - regardless of Traditional teaching from the early Church and even differing from the Reformers themselves who started such a movement who held Mary as sinless.

But the purpose of her being sinless was shown above.
And because of Mary's piety and holiness above mankind - it was spoken of and taught orally [after her death] as well as preserved from writing about it during her lifetime.
Hence the wonderful news John wanted to speak of face to face.

Mostly because she would have found no rest - none.

Humanity would have sought her out and brought likely scandals to her. Being unmentioned was to preserve her. But the early Christians knew of this - but it had to remain hidden - just as Revelations shows God hid Mary from satan. That's two fold from St John. To preserve her completely from satans sins...and from the sins of man who would seek her out.

Does it not show thru Revelation Mary was hidden?

Revelation 12
[6] And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, that there they should feed her a thousand two hundred sixty days.

Which is 3 years and .45 or almost half a year.
When Jesus began His ministry - Mary was being protected from the attacks from satan and mankind. She then must have lived almost 6 months after His Ascension.
You hear nothing more about her.

This is when the time was Mary was 'hidden' because the scriptures were being fulfilled - which put her in satans limelight. BUT because most of man was hidden from knowing Him - tho satan wanted to devour Him - and so tempting man to crucify Him - the fulfillment came thru satan. But Mary remained without spot because the Lord also hid her as He was hidden.

Revelation 12
[4] And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. [5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.

satan thinking he won - by crucifying Christ - did the opposite.
And Mary was held preserved because God prepared her...to be hidden from satan always.

 

[WarriorAngel]

And adding - so it is not lost on anyone - because satan caused the downfall with his pride - he inadvertently caused the crucifixion of Christ - that saved mankind.
But his pride the second time to kill the Lord - as tho he could be wiser than God - was the downfall to his attempt at keeping God's creatures from Him.

See the parallels?

It was thru Christ - the Garden of Paradise was reopened - but the characters - the players - the ones in the salvific story had to complete and parallel the story of Genesis - for God undid what was done - precisely as it was before. Only the second time - He was successful using the sin of satan to undo our sins.

And the woman as well as the Man [Jesus] had to exactly parallel the two sinless humans in the Garden of Eden.

God is wise. We are not.

 

[Castaway57]

But the purpose of her being sinless was shown above.
And because of Mary's piety and holiness above mankind - it was spoken of and taught orally [after her death] as well as preserved from writing about it during her lifetime.

If I may just respectfully comment, on this point of mary "being sinless;" I really don't understand, from anything I have read here yet, why this would have to be so. What I do understand, and I thank our Catholic brethren for pointing it out, is that Mary did have a special piety and holiness that is hard to find, and it was of such nature that our Lord could be her son and come to earth to "save us from our sins;" as the Bible puts it. There is a scripture that speaks to how God preserved Mary's piety and holiness so that she could be the mother of our Lord: Psa_

91:11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

The story in the Bible about Mary is so encouraging because it tells me that if I commit my life and my heart to Jesus; God will also "keep me in all my ways" too.

 

[St_Barnabus]

If I may just respectfully comment, on this point of mary "being sinless;" I really don't understand, from anything I have read here yet, why this would have to be so. What I do understand, and I thank our Catholic brethren for pointing it out, is that Mary did have a special piety and holiness that is hard to find, and it was of such nature that our Lord could be her son and come to earth to "save us from our sins;" as the Bible puts it. There is a scripture that speaks to how God preserved Mary's piety and holiness so that she could be the mother of our Lord: Psa_The story in the Bible about Mary is so encouraging because it tells me that if I commit my life and my heart to Jesus; God will also "keep me in all my ways" too.

So nice to chat with you, Castaway. You are such a gentleman! Many things are going to be above our understanding, but they just need to be accepted by faith. I am unable to plant my seed of faith in this dogma into your heart, but it is not going to interfere with your relationship with God. We don't understand the Trinity, but we believe in it; nor how grace works other than it does; nor how our bodies will be resurrected, but they will; and other deep truths that fall under God's divine Revelation. We accept it because He cannot deceive us, even though we don't understand.

Why God chose to preserve Mary from sin is not given us to know intellectually, but we believe it on the authority of the early Church that transmitted this truth throughout the centuries. Why would anyone need to make this up??

As we discussed previously in the other thread, not every revelation is recorded in scripture, but was taught orally and not committed to writing. For example, the Trinity is found nowhere in scripture, but there were allusions to the three persons throughout the bible, but nowhere does it use the word itself.

I don't know your faith, or if this is all Greek to you, but I do appreciate your sincerity and openness, and kindness in accepting that we differ on some items. May God's Holy Spirit guide us all into fullness of truth.

God bless you.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Her role of being sinless is a 'replay' of the Genesis story - the players are sinless - and using the pride of satan - undoing what satan did. And instead of the the sinless giving into sin - both male and female - the new roles remain sinless.
Believe it or not - exemplifies the salfivic nature of the Ministry of Christ.

But maybe an early Church father is better at explaining than i must have been.
...

This celebrated comparison between Eve, while yet immaculate and incorrupt — that is to say, not subject to original sin — and the Blessed Virgin is developed by:

• Justin (Dialogue with Trypho 100),
• Irenaeus (Against Heresies III.22.4),
• Tertullian (On the Flesh of Christ 17),
• Julius Firmicus Maternus (De errore profan. relig xxvi),
• Cyril of Jerusalem (Catecheses 12.29),
• Epiphanius (Hæres., lxxviii, 18),
• Theodotus of Ancyra (Or. in S. Deip n. 11), and
• Sedulius (Carmen paschale, II, 28).

 

[WarriorAngel]

dbl

 

[Jonathan95]

Think about the ones God preserved and took to Heaven at death.
Elijah
Moses
Henoch.

Moses? He disobeyed God, by striking the rock. He was close to dying too because he didn't circumcise the infant it seems

 

[isshinwhat]

If I may just respectfully comment, on this point of mary "being sinless;" I really don't understand, from anything I have read here yet, why this would have to be so. What I do understand, and I thank our Catholic brethren for pointing it out, is that Mary did have a special piety and holiness that is hard to find, and it was of such nature that our Lord could be her son and come to earth to "save us from our sins;" as the Bible puts it. There is a scripture that speaks to how God preserved Mary's piety and holiness so that she could be the mother of our Lord: Psa_The story in the Bible about Mary is so encouraging because it tells me that if I commit my life and my heart to Jesus; God will also "keep me in all my ways" too.

In part, I see it this way; we state that Mary's Immaculate Conception was a redemptive act of God on a woman who otherwise would have been sinful and not in union with Him. If we say those things of her, is it fitting that Christ's humanity, in His Person, would have been redeemed in that way? Perhaps, but I don't believe so. Mary was redeemed in a unique way because Jesus was/is the spotless Lamb of God; she was redeemed specially where He would inherit flesh that was pure by nature and not in need of redemption. His humanity was/is the humanity we were all meant to have, which we did have before the Fall. It is that humanity that was offered to God, in union with Him, in the Person of Jeaus. He was indeed a spotless lamb, an unblemished sacrifice. Many claim that we elevate Mary, but in our eyes everything done in her was done for Jesus. It is all about Him and His redemptive work.