How can Mary be sinless > 1 John 4:3

isshinwhat said:

That he was conceived with original sin means he experienced concupisence and the difficuties which arise from it, as all humans save Christ and the Virgin Mary have. Still, he experienced the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within the womb of Elizabeth.

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I wonder if anyone here knows what concupisence means?

isshinwhat said:

That he was conceived with original sin means he experienced concupisence and the difficuties which arise from it, as all humans save Christ and the Virgin Mary have. Still, he experienced the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within the womb of Elizabeth.

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Let me get straight. First you claim Mary was sinless, because she supposedly had the indwelling of the Holy-Spirit even before birth. But now, you say John the baptist who is known to have had the indwelling of the Holy-Spirit even before birth, was not sinless?

How is Mary sinless and John isn't?

joseph10 said:

I have a study on the age of accountability. I will see if i can find it and post it. Have to do some stuff for college right now.

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Thanks!

Castaway57 said:

I wonder if anyone here knows what concupisence means?

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it means a predisposition to sin
it is part of the consequences of the Fall from Grace

Lion King said:

Let me get straight. First you claim Mary was sinless, because she supposedly had the indwelling of the Holy-Spirit even before birth. But now, you say John the baptist who is known to have had the indwelling of the Holy-Spirit even before birth, was not sinless?

How is Mary sinless and John isn't?

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Good question.

DiligentlySeekingGod said:

Good question.

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I have heard it said that John was cleansed of sin in that instant before he was born
so he was convinced in sin, and was "born again" before even being born
I am not sure if this is doctrine or just the opinion of some people

Rhamiel said:

I have heard it said that John was cleansed of sin in that instant before he was born
so he was convinced in sin, and was "born again" before even being born
I am not sure if this is doctrine or just the opinion of some people

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I have never heard of this. It doesn't sound biblical to me at all.

Zazal said:

Absolutely...I can quite easily picture the family members all getting together and sharing the strange events that have been taking place...angelic appearances, Liz getting pregnant at last, Zak struck dumb...it was all happening, and as you say there was a close family connection to the Temple and the priesthood...I think Elysium was touching on this.

I believe in sanctified speculation, and trying to put meat in the sandwich wherever possible....being a Bible student requires a sort of forensic mentality and a dogged determination to be like Jacob and get a blessing....thank YHWH for the Spirit.

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Amen.

That all was a 6-month preparation, until Mary conceives. Something was happening, something was going to happen. They, I suppose, didn't know exactly who, but they knew the times.

As to Mary, if we go by the RC POV, one has to wonder whether people stood in awe of this sinless person who walked amongst them.

I remember a priest telling that the ass that spoke to the prophet was sinless.
"All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God"
"All as in Mary, John the baptist, And all but Jesus have sinned."
Of course the ass was obedient and not accountable to sin, as he was not fully human.

Lion King said:

Let me get straight. First you claim Mary was sinless, because she supposedly had the indwelling of the Holy-Spirit even before birth. But now, you say John the baptist who is known to have had the indwelling of the Holy-Spirit even before birth, was not sinless?

How is Mary sinless and John isn't?

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Luke 1:15 - For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

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There is a difference between saying Mary had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit from the moment of her conception, and John the Baptist was cleansed in the womb of his mother after conception. One means that Mary never knew a moment apart from God, while John the Baptist would have still dealt with the effects of the Fall, though both experienced the salvation of God while in the womb. One is akin to preventing a person from falling into a mud puddle, the other cleaning a person up once they have fallen in. In both cases the person is saved from the puddle.

Castaway57 said:

One of the things I noted in this article you referenced was: My comments/questions on this are not meant to argue or challenge in any way; but it is just something I have always wondered. The article also goes on to mention an "implicit Bible reference" where the scripture says Mary was "full of grace." This I most definitely believe. The Bible does say too that others were filled with God's grace, and I think each person is when they are saved.

I have always wondered why Jesus, according to Catholic teaching would even have to be born by a "sinless" Mother. I have never seen that point explained in scripture, and I have always wondered why that is so important to Catholics to believe that? Do you know if the Bible actually tells us this; or is this a part of Catholic "Tradition?" If it is Tradition, where can I find it in the catechism, or other Catholic writings?

I always thought that because God was all powerful, Jesus could be born any where, no matter how corrupt it was, because He would be free from sinning anyway. Jesus was born into a very sinful world, and why would it matter that His Mother was "free from original sin?" Jesus would not have sinned anyways?

Please keep in mind I will not argue or critisize here. I am sincere in wanting to know what you folks think about this. Thanks, in advance, for hearing me out.

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Thank you for your kind greetings. The short answer; because she was the Ark of the New Covenant from who Christ would draw His human nature, and in whom He would become incarnate. Steve Ray does an excellent job of explaining it is this article.

Library : Mary: The Ark of the New Covenant - Catholic Culture

Standing Up said:

Amen.

That all was a 6-month preparation, until Mary conceives. Something was happening, something was going to happen. They, I suppose, didn't know exactly who, but they knew the times.

As to Mary, if we go by the RC POV, one has to wonder whether people stood in awe of this sinless person who walked amongst them.

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I would say no more than people stand in awe of humble and obedient people now...

isshinwhat said:

Thank you for your kind greetings. The short answer; because she was the Ark of the New Covenant from who Christ would draw His human nature, and in whom He would become incarnate. Steve Ray does an excellent job of explaining it is this article.

Library : Mary: The Ark of the New Covenant - Catholic Culture

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Hey thanks for that link. It explains a bunch of things I have been wondering about Catholic thinking. Although I would interpret certain points differently; I appreciated the most that chart at the end of the article. it will come in handy for further study.

DiligentlySeekingGod said:

I have never heard of this. It doesn't sound biblical to me at all.

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Rhamiel said:

I have heard it said that John was cleansed of sin in that instant before he was born so he was convinced in sin, and was "born again" before even being born. I am not sure if this is doctrine or just the opinion of some people

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It is biblical and one of the beautiful mysteries we celebrate called "The Visitation." I believe the Visitation was God's way of fulfilling the prophecy His Archangel Gabriel made in separate revelations to both Mary and Zachary. When Mary and Elizabeth came together in that awesome moment, the Holy Spirit blessed each of them with confirmation of the prophesies each had been given by Gabriel.

After Mary was greeted at her Annunciation, we read that she left in haste to assist Elizabeth. She would have been only a few days pregnant, and not having any evidence whatsoever that what Gabriel announced had already taken place. He only told her, "You shall conceive..." (future tense, no date given)

Same with Elizabeth whose husband Zachary was told that their child will be filled with the Holy Spirit in her womb. (future tense, no evidence yet)

We know that any time an Angel is sent to man bringing God's prophecy, it is fulfilled. Elizabeth realized this when the babe in her womb leapt for joy, confirming the prophecy to Zachary months earlier. I believe there was a special anointed "knowing" that she burst forth with, "How have I deserved that the mother of My Lord has come to me?"

And if Mary had no knowledge of having already conceived, she truly realized the fulfillment in that moment when Elizabeth confirmed it to her, for God was already bestowing the Holy Spirit upon His Forerunner. Years later, St. John would proclaim from his understanding of this miraculous moment that "He who is to come after me will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

My point in all of this is that John received the Holy Spirit in Elizabeth's womb at the presence of Jesus in Mary. An awesome, incredible moment for both women! Now if we believe that the Holy Spirit's bestowal brings sanctifying grace, then it is far more than just an actual grace. He was cleansed of original sin at that moment. For us who are baptized sacramentally to remove original sin, we receive the Spirit AND sanctifying grace. God is not bound by the sacraments alone. This was a very special anointing and gift of grace that John received.

Please note this important difference. Mary was conceived without original sin, but John was not. He wasn't cleansed until 6 months in the womb.

Jeremiah was also cleansed in the womb. Jeremiah 1:5 "Before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee"; and again, to John the Baptist of whom it is written (Luke 1:15): "He shall be filled with the Holy Ghost even from his mother's womb." It is therefore with reason that we believe the Blessed Virgin to have been sanctified before her birth from the womb.

isshinwhat said:

There is a difference between saying Mary had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit from the moment of her conception, and John the Baptist was cleansed in the womb of his mother after conception. One means that Mary never knew a moment apart from God, while John the Baptist would have still dealt with the effects of the Fall, though both experienced the salvation of God while in the womb. One is akin to preventing a person from falling into a mud puddle, the other cleaning a person up once they have fallen in. In both cases the person is saved from the puddle.

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Forgive me for asking this, but where is it hinted that Mary had the indwelling of the Holy-Spirit from the moment of her conception.

Just wanna make sure that you ain't making stuff up as you go, is all.

The word of God is profitable for the casting down of imaginations.

When you folks can't find it in the word of God you then try to compare and imagine maybe it happen this ways of that that way, like this or like that.

This is what God declared concerning if Mary sinned.

" ALL have sinned ( Mary included ) and fallen short of the Glory of God"

That is why You do not harken to any persons thinking on the matter of if Mary was sinless or not. Weather a pope or not. Because they whom teach other then this direct revelation from God, are blinded by sin and wickedness.

God has declared and it is written. ALL Have sinned not one does good.

And John the Baptist was not a born again believer. He died before the spirit of redemption was poured our after Jesus went to the cross. I say into you none born of woman is greater then John the Baptist, yet he whim is least in the kingdom of God is greater then he. John was not born again. He indeed is a king and he is of the First covenant but not saved as a christian. He died under The law and sin. HE never received salvation thru Christ. Christ spirit had not been given at the time of his death. Ne never drank or eat of Christ spirit or flesh.

joseph10 said:

And John the Baptist was not a born again believer. He died before the spirit of redemption was poured our after Jesus went to the cross. I say into you none born of woman is greater then John the Baptist, yet he whim is least in the kingdom of God is greater then he. John was not born again. He indeed is a king and he is of the First covenant but not saved as a christian. He died under The law and sin. HE never received salvation thru Christ. Christ spirit had not been given at the time of his death. Ne never drank or eat of Christ spirit or flesh.

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That's a seriously erroneous paintbrush you have used here. When an Archangel is sent from God to Zachary to announce that John the Baptist would be "FILLED" with the HOLY SPIRIT from his mother's womb, how can you say that he is not a believer, especially when he pointed out Jesus, the Lamb of God! He saw heaven opened and heard God speak, "This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased." Are you aware that being filled with the Holy Spirit does NOT mean he never received salvation, just the opposite! He was.

I do not care to discuss this with you, for your attitude is contentious and all-knowing.

All the prophets of old had the Holy Spirit. Jesus declared John The baptist was not born again. He whom is least in the Kingdom of God is greater then John The Baptist. I did not us a paint brush I told you what God himself declared. Now are you calling God a liar?

joseph10 said:

And John the Baptist was not a born again believer. He died before the spirit of redemption was poured our after Jesus went to the cross. I say into you none born of woman is greater then John the Baptist, yet he whim is least in the kingdom of God is greater then he. John was not born again. He indeed is a king and he is of the First covenant but not saved as a christian. He died under The law and sin. HE never received salvation thru Christ. Christ spirit had not been given at the time of his death. Ne never drank or eat of Christ spirit or flesh.

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You do err.

John the Baptist was indeed born again, for only those born of God can enter the Kingdom of God.