How can Mary be sinless > 1 John 4:3

Was not Mary a Jew. And sold under the bondage of the Law and sin. Then indeed she sinned. For indeed she was a Jew, born of the house of David. And subject to sin. Was she the spiritual mother of Jesus. No she was flesh and bone. Christ was spirit born into the likeness of sinful flesh, yet with out sin.

We are flesh born into the spirit while having sinful flesh. Mary was as we. She was sold under sin because of original sin which came through the fall of Adam / Eve and passed down the fathers blood line. Her very flesh was of sin. Because she was a Jew
she was sold under the Law of sin and death, from birth.

But the rest of the story is this. Mary was a virgin whom had not reached the age of accountability. Which means Christ could be in her and she would not be judged for sin. Her youth was the key to Gods picking the time of her use to the Lord.

Thus special divine special preparation was not needed for Mary to carry Jesus to birth. Any virgin of the house of David could have qualified to carry Christ. As long as they consented and were of the house of David. And it was before the age of accountability.

Mary like all people in the earth was of sin. Thus it is written: All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

Mary was a woman full of Grace in that the angle spoke of the thing to come. For Christ is the first seed of Grace to enter into the earth. Christ is the grace spoke of here. Not Mary. Mary of course was a good person in that she desired to please God and live before God in a correct way. But was sold under the bondage of sin as all are.

Many in no way was divine. Christ alone was divine. Christ alone came from heaven and return to heaven. Christ declared this. He alone has seen the Father.

Mary and Joseph went on to have children of there own. Blessed is the man whose guiver is full.

Do not get me wrong her. We are to honor Mary, not worship her and not pray to her.

Jesus is the one mediator of the new covenant. He alone answers our prayers that is his position in heaven. He is our high priest.

When we pray we pray to the Father in Jesus name. Not Mary's name.

Mary is not spoke of in the book of revelation as being the foundation of the gospel we are building upon. God build his church on the foundation of Christ and the Apostles.
All the apostles of God.

Mary suffered greatly do not get me wrong. And Jesus knew she would suffer. She indeed is glorified for her role in salvation. But she like us all are redeemed in Christ. She indeed drank of Christ free gift of salvation. Of all the people on earth she i understood whom Christ was. He was a gift to the sinful world. She was indeed highly favored to receive the honor of being his fleshly mother.

Does that mean that she was saved when Jesus came to live in her belly. Could be.
We are not informed one way or another. But the odds are she was not until she ask for salvation like the rest of us. For there is one door to salvation for all people, and that is Christ. Repenting and calling of God for salvation is how people get born again.

For salvation did not come until Christ walked as Christ and spoke as Christ. And the spirit was not poured out until he suffered the cross. Then it was another 50 days till the spirit was poured out. So could Mary drink of the spirit until it was poured out.

If you do not eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no part of me, is what Jesus declares.

Jesus is the only one whom as came from heaven and returned to heaven, The only divine being that has ever seen the Father. Came from the Father. Mary is accounted as a part of the human race. Christ was Gods son came in the likeness of sinful flesh to condemn sin.

Mary was born into sinful flesh. As we all are. Thus the body of man even today dies because of sin. For the body is subject to Law and sin. For this reason many sleep and are sick in the body today. Even having received the forgiveness of sin thru adoption.

Another problem with a sinless Mary is that Mary would not be able to be adopted to into Christ own kingdom. Is that likely?

We whom are born again are going to rule with Christ. If Mary did not sin then she could not be born again. And would not rule with Christ.

In other words it is ridiculous to even think Mary did not sin. Jesus loved Mary.
He would not desire her to receive a lesser station for eternity.

God is not a respecter of men. Neither is Jesus and he is God also. Mary was his clay vessel. He used her as he desired. He would not allow her to go to hell.

Mary had to sin to be saved.

joseph10 said:

Was not Mary a Jew. And sold under the bondage of the Law and sin. Then indeed she sinned. For indeed she was a Jew, born of the house of David. And subject to sin. Was she the spiritual mother of Jesus. No she was flesh and bone. Christ was spirit born into the likeness of sinful flesh, yet with out sin.

We are flesh born into the spirit while having sinful flesh. Mary was as we. She was sold under sin because of original sin which came through the fall of Adam / Eve and passed down the fathers blood line. Her very flesh was of sin. Because she was a Jew
she was sold under the Law of sin and death, from birth.

But the rest of the story is this. Mary was a virgin whom had not reached the age of accountability. Which means Christ could be in her and she would not be judged for sin. Her youth was the key to Gods picking the time of her use to the Lord.

Thus special divine special preparation was not needed for Mary to carry Jesus to birth. Any virgin of the house of David could have qualified to carry Christ. As long as they consented and were of the house of David. And it was before the age of accountability.

Mary like all people in the earth was of sin. Thus it is written: All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

Mary was a woman full of Grace in that the angle spoke of the thing to come. For Christ is the first seed of Grace to enter into the earth. Christ is the grace spoke of here. Not Mary. Mary of course was a good person in that she desired to please God and live before God in a correct way. But was sold under the bondage of sin as all are.

Many in no way was divine. Christ alone was divine. Christ alone came from heaven and return to heaven. Christ declared this. He alone has seen the Father.

Mary and Joseph went on to have children of there own. Blessed is the man whose guiver is full.

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Although I agree strongly with most of your post, I am curious about the "age of accountability". Where do you find it in the Bible and why do you think that Mary had not reached it?

I have a study on the age of accountability. I will see if i can find it and post it. Have to do some stuff for college right now.

Zazal said:

Probably a bit pointless moving the thread here as many of those participating only want to impose their views within the sanctuary of their domain and not debate or discuss in a place where their views are open to serious challenges.

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impose their views within the sanctuary of their own domain?

why such loaded language.
I do not go to the Messianic sub forum and denigrate their interpretation of scripture, is it wrong to expect the same respect be paid back?

anyways
back to the OP
how can Mary be sinless?
simple
through the power and grace of God

Rhamiel said:

impose their views within the sanctuary of their own domain?

why such loaded language.
I do not go to the Messianic sub forum and denigrate their interpretation of scripture, is it wrong to expect the same respect be paid back?

anyways
back to the OP
how can Mary be sinless?
simple
through the power and grace of God

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So, why does it matter whether Mary was sinless or not? If she was sinless, we have the same result as we do if she was not sinless.

Standing Up said:

So, why does it matter whether Mary was sinless or not? If she was sinless, we have the same result as we do if she was not sinless.

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the idea is that Christ recieved His human nature from Mary, His mother

to emphasise that Christ is totally sinless, it is said that Mary was conceived without sin

Elysium said:

ask yourselves this question:

would God have been born in sin from a sinful woman?
would the God Almighty, who is pure and stainless, been born from stain?

the doctrines about Mary are about Christ
Christ was borne by a woman whom God protected from sin in order to bring His Son into the world, free from stain

if nothing impure can enter heaven and be in God's presence, how could God have been carried and born from a woman who was impure?

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How was a "pure Mary" born from stain?

Going by your logic, for Mary to be born without sin, her mother would've to be without sin also.

Rhamiel said:

the idea is that Christ recieved His human nature from Mary, His mother

to emphasise that Christ is totally sinless, it is said that Mary was conceived without sin

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IIRC, EO suggests she was "cleansed" from the moment of His conception, rather than from her birth.

I wonder, however, whether the idea of second Adam would thus apply to Christ? IOW, truly human is to be of the fallen lineage from Adam to Abraham to David to Mary.

Odd thing is none of what you folks have proclaimed in supported by the BIBLE. It other words it is in your imaginations. The bible is Gods declared definitive word on the subject.

And it is not strange that Christ could live in a sinful body. Every person on the face of the planet that has received the new birth has the spirit of God living in there sinful body. That is what is so amazing about the new covenant. That God whom is Holy could in a sinful people.

What most thinking about this topic fail to understand is God even living in a sinful body determines who he will judge, if he will judge and or if he applies grace.

Simple said it took nothing divine for Jesus to live in Mary. Jesus was not send to judge sin. He was send to condemn sin in the flesh.

Can you show me in the word of God were Mary was born a special way. Mary was conceved the way all people are and she was a normal person. Catholic traditions
for the most part are wishful thinking if there are not found in the scriptures of God.
Your traditions make the power of God of none affect, Is what God states about traditions.

Zazal said:

Who says so Rhamiel ?



IMO these are religious assumptions and convoluted speculations....Mary wasn't a Holy Container she was the chosen mother of the Saviour, and I think Standing Up makes a pertinent point here.

I do however believe that when visited by the angel, Mary prepared herself for the amazing thing to which she had been called, and that would have meant purification and sanctification according to Jewish Law, and I suspect she was especially attentive to her whole life-style...

Did she fully understand in her humanity exactly what was taking place and the full revelation of whom her child was? I don't think so.

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I don't think so either. It's not like she had been married 50 years and was barren and life is nearing the end and where's the 'fruitful and multiply' in my life anguish. She was a young virgin betrothed to be married and along comes ... well we know the story. Totally unexpected and outside the norm.

Maybe, though not completely at a loss; maybe she had been part of the conversation with her uncle/priest (father of John the baptist, right?) and others about Daniel's time frame ending. Look up ...

Zazal said:

I do however believe that when visited by the angel, Mary prepared herself for the amazing thing to which she had been called, and that would have meant purification and sanctification according to Jewish Law, and I suspect she was especially attentive to her whole life-style...

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This is a good observation/conclusion. I really love the story of Mary, Jesus' Mother, in the Bible. Some of us who do not have a Mother anymore, or whose Mother is not in the picture anymore for various reasons can see and cherish many and varied character traits in Mary, as Jesus' Mother.

For eg., in the city of their royal line, Joseph and Mary are unrecognized and unhonored. Weary and homeless, they traverse the entire length of the narrow street, from the gate of the city to the eastern extremity of the town, vainly seeking a resting place for the night. There is no room for them at the crowded inn. In a rude building where the beasts are sheltered, they at last find refuge, and here the Redeemer of the world is born.

It is the heart service that makes the gift valuable. When the Majesty of heaven became a babe, and was entrusted to Mary, she did not have much to offer for the precious gift. She brought to the altar only two turtledoves, the offering appointed for the poor; but they were an acceptable sacrifice to the Lord. She could not present rare treasures such as the wise men of the East came to Bethlehem to lay before the Son of God; yet the mother of Jesus was not rejected because of the smallness of her gift. It was the willingness of her heart that the Lord looked upon, and her love made the offering sweet. So God will accept our gift, however small, if it is the best we have, and is offered from love to Him.

Mary did this; and her small almost un-noticed gift was accepted, and was just as valuable in God's eyes, as anything that the wise men brought to Jesus. There are things we can agree on with our Catholic brethren, and this is certainly one of them.

Lion King said:

How was a "pure Mary" born from stain?

Going by your logic, for Mary to be born without sin, her mother would've to be without sin also.

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Your incorrect analogy would only apply if we were claiming that God did not save Mary; that she was born pure by nature. Mary was saved in a special manner where Christ would receive humanity in its original state such as Adam and Eve were created in. The act of God on Mary still saved her from sin, but in a special way, whereas for Christ there was nothing to "save" his flesh from, it was not corrupted.

isshinwhat said:

Your incorrect analogy would only apply if we were claiming that God did not save Mary; that she was born pure by nature. Mary was saved in a special manner where Christ would receive humanity in its original state such as Adam and Eve were created in. The act of God on Mary still saved her from sin, but in a special way, whereas for Christ there was nothing to "save" his flesh from, it was not corrupted.

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Is this what the word of God says or just mere assumptions on your part? In what special manner was Mary saved that was different from the rest of humanity?

No offense, but it sounds like you are just making this stuff up as you go along.

Standing Up said:

Maybe, though not completely at a loss; maybe she had been part of the conversation with her uncle/priest (father of John the baptist, right?) and others about Daniel's time frame ending. Look up ...

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Absolutely...I can quite easily picture the family members all getting together and sharing the strange events that have been taking place...angelic appearances, Liz getting pregnant at last, Zak struck dumb...it was all happening, and as you say there was a close family connection to the Temple and the priesthood...I think Elysium was touching on this.

I believe in sanctified speculation, and trying to put meat in the sandwich wherever possible....being a Bible student requires a sort of forensic mentality and a dogged determination to be like Jacob and get a blessing....thank YHWH for the Spirit.

Lion King said:

Is this what the word of God says or just mere assumptions on your part? In what special manner was Mary saved that was different from the rest of humanity?

No offense, but it sounds like you are just making this stuff up as you go along.

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Mary was given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and was protected from ever knowing sin from the moment of her conception. Such particular acts are not unknown Biblically, for John the Baptist was given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit while still in Elizabeth's womb. If you are interested in a more detailed explanation with Biblical references than I can currently give, please read this: Immaculate Conception and Assumption | Catholic Answers

If I don't respond back promptly, I will try to as soon as I can, but the Internet on camp has been spotty.

isshinwhat said:

Mary was given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and was protected from ever knowing sin from the moment of her conception. Such particular acts are not unknown Biblically, for John the Baptist was given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit while still in Elizabeth's womb. If you are interested in a more detailed explanation with Biblical references than I can currently give, please read this: Immaculate Conception and Assumption | Catholic Answers

If I don't respond back promptly, I will try to as soon as I can, but the Internet on camp has been spotty.

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Was John the baptist sinless?

Lion King said:

Was John the baptist sinless?

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That he was conceived with original sin means he experienced concupisence and the difficuties which arise from it, as all humans save Christ and the Virgin Mary have. Still, he experienced the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within the womb of Elizabeth.

Lion King said:

Was John the baptist sinless?

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One of the things I noted in this article you referenced was:

Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.

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My comments/questions on this are not meant to argue or challenge in any way; but it is just something I have always wondered. The article also goes on to mention an "implicit Bible reference" where the scripture says Mary was "full of grace." This I most definitely believe. The Bible does say too that others were filled with God's grace, and I think each person is when they are saved.

I have always wondered why Jesus, according to Catholic teaching would even have to be born by a "sinless" Mother. I have never seen that point explained in scripture, and I have always wondered why that is so important to Catholics to believe that? Do you know if the Bible actually tells us this; or is this a part of Catholic "Tradition?" If it is Tradition, where can I find it in the catechism, or other Catholic writings?

I always thought that because God was all powerful, Jesus could be born any where, no matter how corrupt it was, because He would be free from sinning anyway. Jesus was born into a very sinful world, and why would it matter that His Mother was "free from original sin?" Jesus would not have sinned anyways?

Please keep in mind I will not argue or critisize here. I am sincere in wanting to know what you folks think about this. Thanks, in advance, for hearing me out.