"How can I unless someone explain it to me?"

[faceofbear]

The quote I cited is a paraphrase of the Eunuch in Acts whom Philip witnessed to. The Eunuch was reading through Isaiah and Philip asked him, "Do you understand what you are reading?" The Eunuch thus responded, "How can I unless someone explain it to me?"

My thoughts began to ponder over this question. When I realized, how can any of us understand what we read in the Bible, unless it be explained to us. And once we have that explanation, how can we be sure it is true?

I, in some part, wish that I had not been exposed to indoctrination of baptist theology, but it was the first church I attended, and, unfortunately, I took everything they said to be infallible.

I regret this because we are told we must know less to know more, and to have the minds of infants, because the kingdom of God belongs to them. I remember when I first started reading the Bible, I was worried that I had sinned because I had a tattoo, and because I cut my hair (Leviticus). I was worried that I had committed unforgiveable sins. And, I wish to some degree, I had gone on believing that so once I read the new testament, I would be relieved from the law.

Anyways, I am confused. If the Eunuch needed an Apostle to explain Isaiah to him, why don't we need these explanations anymore? I suppose we can say the holy spirit, but this incident was before his salvation after baptism. So, how can any non-believer understand the Bible? And how can they be certain what they are told is true?

I'm sure if anyone has been paying attention to my posts recently, I am having an issue with epistemology. I don't understand how we just "know things." Or how we can just "pray" and be "guided" by the holy spirit. The reason is, nearly every denomination says to pray and read the bible and ask God to guide you. Yet we have tens of thousands of denominations all praying to God for guidance, and God knows how many dissenting doctrines. So, how do I know what I believe is true? I find so many conflicting doctrines under every denomination, even the denomination of non. I fear I should just avoid church.

In fact, I've almost reached the conclusion that the God of the Christian Churches is not the God of the Bible, and have almost satisfied myself in saying that I am an atheist to the God of the Church, but not the God of the Bible. ANd by God of the Church, I mean any Church I've looked into.

 

[faceofbear]

When it comes down to it, I don't understand what makes anyone else interpretation any more relevant than the next. When you come to it with an open mind, nearly every interpretation out there makes just as much sense as the next. And when I ask baptist people, "How are you right?" They usually appeal to a baptist tradition, creed, "This is how I was raised," "the holy spirit guided me," etc. All of which every other denomination appeals to, as well.

The one thing I find common in all of these churches, though, is the lack of love for God i read in acts, and in the epistles. I find instead, we are modern pharisees, sadducees, and interpreters of the law. "Do this, don't do that." But then I read things like the didache, and it's like "wow, no one believes like this anymore." Many claim to. But, I can count on my fingers how many people I know who live like Christ. And none of them get caught up in doctrines, denominations, etc.

 

[DCJazz]

So in a nutshell, you are disillusioned by many if not all the denominations and their churches.

I admit I am also struggling with this. It was because of this that I stopped attending church for years and years. But I figure that if the Bible really is the infallible word of God, then any doctrine in any denomination that goes against what the Bible has to say must be a false doctrine. This is why I have so many issues with the Catholic church specifically.

However, I don't see anywhere in the Bible that we can't attend church; in fact I think fellowship with fellow believers is at the very least encouraged.

 

[faceofbear]

Basically, yes. I've found that those who love God believe the bible at face value. They don't sit around and debate doctrines, or have 5000 explanations for why they believe what they believe. In honesty, the RC church has a lot that is biblical if you do more study in.it. But i have some larger issues with them.

I just find in the bible its always those who claim to understand.God and.doctrine that are blind. So, i feel hopeless.

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

Maybe you are trying to hard to understand everything. There are things in the Bible that are very hard to understand and you will get thousands of opinions on these topics. But the parts that are really important and simple enough for children to understand. I'm ok with saying "I don't know" to a lot of Bible topics, but to the ones that matter, I know for certain and can easily back it up with Bible verses.

Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

The Father reveals things to us as he wills. If he hasn't revealed something to you personally then you shouldn't be overly concerned IMHO because really, it isn't that important. What is important is your salvation, after that it's just minor details.

 

[k4c]

The problem comes is when we begin to draw our value and selfworth in the eyes of God by how correct our doctrines are or by how well we can keep the commandments. When we draw our value from these things we can become proud and begin viewing people as the pharisee did when he said, "I'm glad I'm not like so and so". We can also have a roller coaster relationship with God because when we're having a good moment we feel excepted by God but when we're having a bad moment we feel rejected by God.

Our value and selfworth in the eyes of God must come from the cross of Christ, not in our rightness of doctrine or our rightness of behavior, that was the religion of the pharisees. The sins of the whole world have been dealt with on the cross because God loves the whole world.

Rightness in doctrine as a bases for fellowship and salvation can be dangerous because of the many variables. How well one can understand and comprehend, the education level of a person, language barriers, Bible accessibility. Doctrines you once defended and fought for five years ago are probably not the same ones you hold today but the cross will always stand for the love of God for mankind.

Our love for one another, no matter which denomination you belong to or what doctrines you hold is where life is found. The key is to just find a church that has a similar belief as yourself and serve God through that church.

When Jesus comes He is not looking at the rightness of our doctrines, but rather, how we treat each other in life.

Matthew 25:31-40 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on His right and the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you took care of Me; I was in prison and you visited Me.’ “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or without clothes and clothe You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and visit You? ’ "And the King will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

Showing love to one another by caring for one another can be expressed by all no matter what they believe and when it's done to bring glory to God, it has eternal value.

 

[Hupomone10]

1. Is your girlfriend (fiance) Catholic, and are you sure you're not rethinking these things because your thinking is clouded with feelings?

2. Have you considered that your confusion may stem from a desire for security? Many people who make religious changes to groups which tell you what to believe and what is true do so because it eliminates the confusion from different perspectives and eliminates the risk and the need to develop the ability to hear what God is saying in our spirit. It's easier to just have a group who tells us what interpretation is right.

The Catholics have two authorities: the Bible, and the infallible magisterium of the church. IOW, you may have some issues and disagreements with them now, but when you go through the RCIS (Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults)
I believe you will be expected to resolve these and come out of it looking to the bishops to tell you what correct interpretation is.

That can make life much easier if you truly don't like doctrinal discussions. But Mike, I know you to be a thinker from your many posts and your emails; and you will never settle for some group of spiritually dead clergy telling you what every passage means.

If you can be satisfied with that, then I've been mistaken. But, please do what my sons is not doing, and play this out to the end of the movie, follow it out to the end of this road, and see if this lady were to fall of the face of the earth tomorrow, you would be satisfied with this direction in life years down the line, to the end of your life.

Then you will have your answer.

Your friend always,
Bill

 

[faceofbear]

1. Is your girlfriend (fiance) Catholic, and are you sure you're not rethinking these things because your thinking is clouded with feelings?

No, she's not. Bill, in person, everyone who has talked to me about religion, including her, has become just as skeptical as I am. The only people who haven't, are my grandparents. And the only reason they aren't is because of their own traditions or what their pastor says. They aren't even willing to consider what I am proposing.

2. Have you considered that your confusion may stem from a desire for security? Many people who make religious changes to groups which tell you what to believe and what is true do so because it eliminates the confusion from different perspectives and eliminates the risk and the need to develop the ability to hear what God is saying in our spirit. It's easier to just have a group who tells us what interpretation is right.

I believe my confusion comes from logic and the blatant contradictions in the Bible. So many people say, "There are no contradictions." Well, that may be. But, if that is true, then why are so many people confused as to what the Bible says. By this I mean, there are over 30,000 Christian denominations all claiming to know the truth, all claiming the Bible is infallible, all claiming the Bible is the only source for Christianity, and all claiming there are no contradictions in the Bible. Now, if you noted my wording carefully, you'll see I said these people are all confused. I say this because I disagree with person b, person b disagrees with you, you disagree with person c, so we all have conflicting theology.

So why are we confused? We are confused because each of us claims to see and to know a certain extent of truth. None of us are willing to be reproved, even if we claim to be. I would go on, but I think you get my point. It's not MY confusion, it's CHRISTIANITY'S confusion. If there were no confusion, there would only be one church with an infallible knowledge because what the Bible says is so clear. An above poster said God hasn't revealed it yet. But how do you know it's even God revealing it to you and not your own deceitful heart? And there are even contradictions on soteriology amongst denominations. There is no agreement.

The Catholics have two authorities: the Bible, and the infallible magisterium of the church. IOW, you may have some issues and disagreements with them now, but when you go through the RCIS (Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults)
I believe you will be expected to resolve these and come out of it looking to the bishops to tell you what correct interpretation is.

That can make life much easier if you truly don't like doctrinal discussions. But Mike, I know you to be a thinker from your many posts and your emails; and you will never settle for some group of spiritually dead clergy telling you what every passage means.

Even Paul said there are traditions written down, and traditions passed down orally. I don't know if Catholicism is right. Heck, I don't know that any denomination is right. To be honest, I've considered that no body currently alive is saved, except for a few. I guess my judgment from God will just be all the more harsher. I'm sure you have, but read through the didache. You'll see why I have so much confusion at relating the modern Church to the pre-modern Church.

As far as being a thinker, I'm not sure this is good when it comes to faith. Christ just wants us to trust. But, my question is, trust what? I know the answer may be simple, "Trust Christ." But what about Christ? What the Bible says, right? Is that: What you say the Bible says? What we think the Bible says? What I think it means?

The people I've found most godlike, do not even go to Church. They simply fellowship with people, go to missions, help, give money, and live like Christ. They don't worry about all these mindless doctrines and commandments from men. But I can't ever be that way unless God's grace performs something more miraculous than Christ.

 

[If Not For Grace]

I regret this because we are told we must know less to know more, and to have the minds of infants, because the kingdom of God belongs to them.

I've been a baptist for over 20 years and I was never taught this, the closest i can come is being told that I must be born again or that my faith should be like a small child-but neither means I should have the mind of an infant.

I have never believed you had to park your brain at the door to be a christian, in fact my heros like Einstien & CS Lewis and America's founding fathers were all christians. i would not describe them as infintile.

God is not afraid of your questions-seek, & learn in fact "my people perish for LACK of knowledge" is what comes to mind. That and "with alll thy knowledge get understanding". Jesus was a teacher, He loved those who wanted to learn-they were the chosen.

 

[Hupomone10]

No, she's not. Bill, in person, everyone who has talked to me about religion, including her, has become just as skeptical as I am. The only people who haven't, are my grandparents. And the only reason they aren't is because of their own traditions or what their pastor says. They aren't even willing to consider what I am proposing.

The people I've found most godlike, do not even go to Church. They simply fellowship with people, go to missions, help, give money, and live like Christ. They don't worry about all these mindless doctrines and commandments from men. But I can't ever be that way unless God's grace performs something more miraculous than Christ.

I'm glad to know that, about your fiance. I hoped this were not a case of thinking with the wrong organ.

However, regarding what you said about the most godlike people you've met being those who don't go to church, I hope you are just trying to exaggerate for effect. That hasn't been my experience at all. I can't name a single godly person outside the church that I know; and yet I know many who are regular church-goers. The foremost is the lady who led me to the Lord. I have never met a Christian before or since like her. She was in many respects one of a kind, with Christ truly living through her. But because of being able to know her, I can recognize others who are of this ilk when I see them, or many times when I merely read them or read about them. It's like knowing genuine currency from counterfeit because of having handled the real thing often.

The best non-church-attender I've known in recent years was a friend I told you about who had been delivered from 30 years addiction to porn. He didn't attend church; and I tried to tell him the importance of being subject to a body of believers and spiritual leadership besides ourselves, but he never saw it. When you do that, walk in independence, you just make a larger target out of yourself to the devil; and believe me, he did. I haven't heard from him in many months; and the last time he told me about having fallen over and over again and was trying to pull out of it. But he tried as I think you are considering doing - by himself.

Here's something I will pass on to you that I've only observed and learned since I've been on CF. It seems to be better for a young believer to remain in a stable environment and stable doctrinal system for a while, no matter whether that is Calvinist or Arminian, liturgical or free-form, charismatic or non-, until he or she is established comfortably enough and solid enough in the Lord to encounter various doctrinal challenges and objectively look into the issues without being thrown into doubts and turmoil and doubt their walk. It almost got me back when I had been walking with the Lord about a year, but I am thankful for the good foundation I had and the vibrant relationship with Christ, which helped me at that time. All these doubts by those I've encountered on here confirm this to me. It's far more important to cultivate a personal relationship with Christ than to worry about all 5 points of grace or all 5 remonstrances, or where faith comes from. Over the past 30 years, those I've known who do that are pretty stable in their Christian walk even when they disagree on petty doctrines, those who don't cultivate that walk, aren't.

I will be here any time you need someone to talk to, bro.

God bless,
Bill

 

[thesunisout]

The true church is the body of Christ, of which every true Christian is a member. There are true Christians in every denomination. Yes, it is true that many churchs are preaching a false gospel. It is also true that many churches are preaching a Christ-centered gospel.

The reason there are so many denominations is the same reason there are so many different religions. Satan, our adversary, has been busy spreading lies and false doctrines for the last 2000 years, and in their unrighteousness, people believe them. The traditions of men, much like the pharisees had, are built upon these lies. That there are lies out there doesn't mean there aren't any churchs which have a correct view of the gospel.

I'll tell you that one of the number one things Satan tries to do is get you to doubt the bible. Once you start doubting the word of God, it is quite easy to lead you astray. You can trust the bible, and we understand the bible by the Holy Spirit. The eunuch did not have the Holy Spirit, because he had not yet accepted Christ. Don't worry about what other people believe, concentrate on your relationship with God and pray for wisdom and understanding. Let the Spirit guide you forward in your study.

As far as church goes, we have been given spiritual gifts to benefit eachother. The bible commands that we use these gifts to help others, and it also tells us to gather together for worship and edification. There is no excuse for not going. No church is going to be pefect, because no human being is perfect. Rather than find fault, why not try to help? Find a non-denominational church if baptist doesn't suit you, and let the Spirit guide you. Fellowship is extremely important, and there is no such thing as independence in the body of Christ. We need eachother. You are also an easier target if you try to go it alone. So, keep looking because it is important to gather together in worship and to share our gifts.

No, she's not. Bill, in person, everyone who has talked to me about religion, including her, has become just as skeptical as I am. The only people who haven't, are my grandparents. And the only reason they aren't is because of their own traditions or what their pastor says. They aren't even willing to consider what I am proposing.

2. Have you considered that your confusion may stem from a desire for security? Many people who make religious changes to groups which tell you what to believe and what is true do so because it eliminates the confusion from different perspectives and eliminates the risk and the need to develop the ability to hear what God is saying in our spirit. It's easier to just have a group who tells us what interpretation is right.

I believe my confusion comes from logic and the blatant contradictions in the Bible. So many people say, "There are no contradictions." Well, that may be. But, if that is true, then why are so many people confused as to what the Bible says. By this I mean, there are over 30,000 Christian denominations all claiming to know the truth, all claiming the Bible is infallible, all claiming the Bible is the only source for Christianity, and all claiming there are no contradictions in the Bible. Now, if you noted my wording carefully, you'll see I said these people are all confused. I say this because I disagree with person b, person b disagrees with you, you disagree with person c, so we all have conflicting theology.

So why are we confused? We are confused because each of us claims to see and to know a certain extent of truth. None of us are willing to be reproved, even if we claim to be. I would go on, but I think you get my point. It's not MY confusion, it's CHRISTIANITY'S confusion. If there were no confusion, there would only be one church with an infallible knowledge because what the Bible says is so clear. An above poster said God hasn't revealed it yet. But how do you know it's even God revealing it to you and not your own deceitful heart? And there are even contradictions on soteriology amongst denominations. There is no agreement.



Even Paul said there are traditions written down, and traditions passed down orally. I don't know if Catholicism is right. Heck, I don't know that any denomination is right. To be honest, I've considered that no body currently alive is saved, except for a few. I guess my judgment from God will just be all the more harsher. I'm sure you have, but read through the didache. You'll see why I have so much confusion at relating the modern Church to the pre-modern Church.

As far as being a thinker, I'm not sure this is good when it comes to faith. Christ just wants us to trust. But, my question is, trust what? I know the answer may be simple, "Trust Christ." But what about Christ? What the Bible says, right? Is that: What you say the Bible says? What we think the Bible says? What I think it means?

The people I've found most godlike, do not even go to Church. They simply fellowship with people, go to missions, help, give money, and live like Christ. They don't worry about all these mindless doctrines and commandments from men. But I can't ever be that way unless God's grace performs something more miraculous than Christ.