How can I make God to reveal himself to me?

[TruthSeeker3]

Hi everybody. I am new in this forum.
As you can guess from my nick, I am interested in discovering the truth about life in an existential sense, I really want to discover if life has a true meaning or not, whether there is a spiritual reality or not, whether God exists or not. Why? Because I think in this way: the whole life is about taking decisions all the time, every second you are taking decisions. Therefore, if I achieve to know the true purpose of life, if I achieve to discover the truth, then I will be able to take the better decisions I could take.

That being said, the next step would logically be to find out a way to discover the truth. Certainly science appears in the scene as an excellent tool to study and comprehend the physical reality, this physical universe, which is what our physical senses reveal us. I want to make sure that I appreciate science a lot, because it has proved to be very effective as we can see through the technologies developed by applying those knowledges achieved by science (the computer you are using to read this thread is a good example). In spite of the effectiveness of science, I can't still rely carelessly on it because of a little technical hypothetical limitation: given the hypothetical case that a spiritual reality does exist, then science would not be able to discover or study it because, as far as I know, science is totally oriented to the physical reality and all its theories are bounded to this. Every theory about any aspect of reality in science only considers physical properties in its construction, and the reason is very simple: generally evidence, at least experimental evidence, only reveals a physical world (like your five senses). Therefore, if a spiritual reality exists along with this physical reality, then putting all my confidence in science alone carries the risk of ignoring a huge part of the existence. And this can become even worse if there are afterlife consecuences for making this bad choice.

I know that I am being very hypothetical when seeing things like this, and even I can seem a little paranoid for people who don't take this issue so seriously. But let me try to clarify better my position. I can summarize the general world positions about truth in the following way:

Mainstream positions:

1) Objectively speaking life has no meaning (the task of giving meaning to your life is delegated to you). Materialistic positions of any sort I think would fall whiting this scope.

2) Objectively speaking life has a meaning/sense/purpose and this is given from a metaphysical/spiritual source (this source could be God, whose definition can vary of course, or many gods).

Now, in practical terms, since life is about taking decisions, this means that you are taking decisions whether only considering issues of this physical reality (things like money, food, a place to sleep, all of these things you have to do in order to keep alive in midst of society) or considering also this extra spiritual elements according to your particular vision of what the truth is.
Whether you believe in an spiritual reality in addition to this physcal reality or not, the materialistic part has to be considered anyway, because we like it or not, we all have to eat, we have to sleep, we have to get shelter, it is just a practical and unavoidable issue we have to face because we are living in this physical reality. Therefore, believing in a spiritual reality introduces more complexity to our decisions because we now have to take into account both physical and spiritual things.

Now I wil try to get to the point and connect all of this with the title question.

I know that is impossible to discover the truth just by logic because you can always propose an alternative explanation for something that is still consistent with the evidence. You always can come up with a new explanation that is still logically valid and therefore this situation doesn't allow you to get 100% logical certainty when finding out the truth. However, for practical reasons we have to take decisions and that implies running the risk of being wrong, that's why we tend to put our confidence in those things that seem more reasonable to us. Since I am aware of this situation, I decided to run the risk of being wrong by making a decision regarding this existential matter. So, in order to finally get to the point, I did something very similar to the Pascal's Wager. I identified the following options:

Options:

1) Materialistic view of universe is true.
2) Spiritual reality exists and Buddhism is the Truth.
3) Spiritual reality exists and Hinduism is the Truth.
4) Spiritual reality exists and Islam is the Truth.
5) Spiritual reality exists and Judaism is the Truth.
6) Spiritual reality exists and Christianity is the Truth.
7) Spiritual reality exists and it is explained by other cosmovision (this is the etcera option)

Materialistic view is a neutral position, because in that case when I die nothing will happen. Furthermore, as I said before, I will have to deal with materialistic things anyway (university, work, food, home, etc.).

If either Buddhism or Hinduism is true, then not believing in them is not a very bad situation because as long as I become a good person I will have better chances to know the truth in my next reincarnation. There is always another opporunity.

Islam, Judaism and Christianity are very linked together because they are all based in the same monotheistic God, the God of Abraham. But, of course, Islam went to the branch of Muhammad and Christianity to the branch of Jesus. These three religions share the fact that if they turn out to be true and you didn't believe in them, then you will be lost (without another opportunity) when you die.

There are many many other possible spiritual cosmovisions of course that you can come up with, currents that make combinations of different religions, even religions that consider the existence of extraterrestrial beings (for example, some say that you can reincarnate in other civilization of the universe, I don't know).

Finally, I have taken the decision of betting for Christianity, and these are broadly speaking the reasons:

1) Because its God (Abraham's God) has a lot of world popular support (Islam, Judaism and Christianity itself 's followers). I know it is a logical fallacy to appeal to popularity but since I am making a bet, I think that if there is a God and if he has some interest in us and if he has had some interaction with humanity, then it is reasonable to think that he would have managed to impact human history and get some popularity.

2) Because its God (Abraham's God) is the main God in terms of popularity who
threatens with punishment in case that we don't believe in him. In the case of buddhism, hinduism it doesn't matter if I don't believe in them as I explained before.

3) Among the three Abraham's God religions, Christianity is the one with more world population support.

4) And finally, and I think this is one of the most important reasons to make my bet, I know a lot of testimonies of spiritual experiencies that give support to Christianity.

I want to repeat that I know that this is not a bet based purely in logic, I know that I am running the risk of wasting my time in something that may not be true at all.

Now, I want to make the connection with the title question. I said that what I am doing is similar to the Pascal's Wager, but it is not exactly the same. The difference with it is that meanwhile Pascal was expecting to verify his success or mistake once he were dead, I want instead to verify if I am betting to the Truth here, in the Earth, before I die. How? Well, I want God to reveal himself to me. And that is why for me the point 4 is very important. I know a lot of testimonies of spiritual experiences with God within Christianity. Just to give an example, I know lots of testimonies of experiences with the Holy Spirit and even I have been reading lately Benny Hinn's "Good Morning, Holy Spirit" as a reference related to this matter.

However, I am having trouble to achieve my existential objective. I have learned a lot of Christian doctrine in order to be very well informed to try to make God reveal himself to me. So far, I understand that I have to make the following things to achieve it:

1) I have to repent of heart of my sins.
2) I have to get baptized in water.
3) I have to accept Jesus as my Lord and personal Saviour.
4) I have to seek God with all my heart by praying, reading the Bible, fasting and attending a Church.
5) I have to make all my effort to live like Jesus lived.

I have tried to do all of that but it is extremely difficult and even, believe it or not, I have spent more than 2 years and a half only making circles and getting nothing. No spiritual revelation. Nothing at all. So, I would like to know how to make God to reveal himself to me.

Just to give more information about my backgrounds, before seeking the christian God, I used to be a skeptical agnostic.

Thanks in advance.

 

[oi_antz]

Hi everybody. I am new in this forum.
As you can guess from my nick, I am interested in discovering the truth about life in an existential sense, I really want to discover if life has a true meaning or not, whether there is a spiritual reality or not, whether God exists or not. Why? Because I think in this way: the whole life is about taking decisions all the time, every second you are taking decisions. Therefore, if I achieve to know the true purpose of life, if I achieve to discover the truth, then I will be able to take the better decisions I could take.

That being said, the next step would logically be to find out a way to discover the truth. Certainly science appears in the scene as an excellent tool to study and comprehend the physical reality, this physical universe, which is what our physical senses reveal us. I want to make sure that I appreciate science a lot, because it has proved to be very effective as we can see through the technologies developed by applying those knowledges achieved by science (the computer you are using to read this thread is a good example). In spite of the effectiveness of science, I can't still rely carelessly on it because of a little technical hypothetical limitation: given the hypothetical case that a spiritual reality does exist, then science would not be able to discover or study it because, as far as I know, science is totally oriented to the physical reality and all its theories are bounded to this. Every theory about any aspect of reality in science only considers physical properties in its construction, and the reason is very simple: generally evidence, at least experimental evidence, only reveals a physical world (like your five senses). Therefore, if a spiritual reality exists along with this physical reality, then putting all my confidence in science alone carries the risk of ignoring a huge part of the existence. And this can become even worse if there are afterlife consecuences for making this bad choice.

I know that I am being very hypothetical when seeing things like this, and even I can seem a little paranoid for people who don't take this issue so seriously. But let me try to clarify better my position. I can summarize the general world positions about truth in the following way:

Mainstream positions:

1) Objectively speaking life has no meaning (the task of giving meaning to your life is delegated to you). Materialistic positions of any sort I think would fall whiting this scope.

2) Objectively speaking life has a meaning/sense/purpose and this is given from a metaphysical/spiritual source (this source could be God, whose definition can vary of course, or many gods).

Now, in practical terms, since life is about taking decisions, this means that you are taking decisions whether only considering issues of this physical reality (things like money, food, a place to sleep, all of these things you have to do in order to keep alive in midst of society) or considering also this extra spiritual elements according to your particular vision of what the truth is.
Whether you believe in an spiritual reality in addition to this physcal reality or not, the materialistic part has to be considered anyway, because we like it or not, we all have to eat, we have to sleep, we have to get shelter, it is just a practical and unavoidable issue we have to face because we are living in this physical reality. Therefore, believing in a spiritual reality introduces more complexity to our decisions because we now have to take into account both physical and spiritual things.

Now I wil try to get to the point and connect all of this with the title question.

I know that is impossible to discover the truth just by logic because you can always propose an alternative explanation for something that is still consistent with the evidence. You always can come up with a new explanation that is still logically valid and therefore this situation doesn't allow you to get 100% logical certainty when finding out the truth. However, for practical reasons we have to take decisions and that implies running the risk of being wrong, that's why we tend to put our confidence in those things that seem more reasonable to us. Since I am aware of this situation, I decided to run the risk of being wrong by making a decision regarding this existential matter. So, in order to finally get to the point, I did something very similar to the Pascal's Wager. I identified the following options:

Options:

1) Materialistic view of universe is true.
2) Spiritual reality exists and Buddhism is the Truth.
3) Spiritual reality exists and Hinduism is the Truth.
4) Spiritual reality exists and Islam is the Truth.
5) Spiritual reality exists and Judaism is the Truth.
6) Spiritual reality exists and Christianity is the Truth.
7) Spiritual reality exists and it is explained by other cosmovision (this is the etcera option)

Materialistic view is a neutral position, because in that case when I die nothing will happen. Furthermore, as I said before, I will have to deal with materialistic things anyway (university, work, food, home, etc.).

If either Buddhism or Hinduism is true, then not believing in them is not a very bad situation because as long as I become a good person I will have better chances to know the truth in my next reincarnation. There is always another opporunity.

Islam, Judaism and Christianity are very linked together because they b all based in the same monotheistic God, the God of Abraham. But, of course, Islam went to the branch of Muhammad and Christianity to the branch of Jesus. These three religions share the fact that if they turn out to be true and you didn't believe in them, then you will be lost (without another opportunity) when you die.

There are many many other possible spiritual cosmovisions of course that you can come up with, currents that make combinations of different religions, even religions that consider the existence of extraterrestrial beings (for example, some say that you can reincarnate in other civilization of the universe, I don't know).

Finally, I have taken the decision of betting for Christianity, and these are broadly speaking the reasons:

1) Because its God (Abraham's God) has a lot of world popular support (Islam, Judaism and Christianity itself 's followers). I know it is a logical fallacy to appeal to popularity but since I am making a bet, I think that if there is a God and if he has some interest in us and if he has had some interaction with humanity, then it is reasonable to think that he would have managed to impact human history and get some popularity.

2) Because its God (Abraham's God) is the main God in terms of popularity who
threatens with punishment in case that we don't believe in him. In the case of buddhism, hinduism it doesn't matter if I don't believe in them as I explained before.

3) Among the three Abraham's God religions, Christianity is the one with more world population support.

4) And finally, and I think this is one of the most important reasons to make my bet, I know a lot of testimonies of spiritual experiencies that give support to Christianity.

I want to repeat that I know that this is not a bet based purely in logic, I know that I am running the risk of wasting my time in something that may not be true at all.

Now, I want to make the connection with the title question. I said that what I am doing is similar to the Pascal's Wager, but it is not exactly the same. The difference with it is that meanwhile Pascal was expecting to verify his success or mistake once he were dead, I want instead to verify if I am betting to the Truth here, in the Earth, before I die. How? Well, I want God to reveal himself to me. And that is why for me the point 4 is very important. I know a lot of testimonies of spiritual experiences with God within Christianity. Just to give an example, I know lots of testimonies of experiences with the Holy Spirit and even I have been reading lately Benny Hinn's "Good Morning, Holy Spirit" as a reference related to this matter.

However, I am having trouble to achieve my existential objective. I have learned a lot of Christian doctrine in order to be very well informed to try to make God reveal himself to me. So far, I understand that I have to make the following things to achieve it:

1) I have to repent of heart of my sins.
2) I have to get baptized in water.
3) I have to accept Jesus as my Lord and personal Saviour.
4) I have to seek God with all my heart by praying, reading the Bible, fasting and attending a Church.
5) I have to make all my effort to live like Jesus lived.

I have tried to do all of that but it is extremely difficult and even, believe it or not, I have spent more than 2 years and a half only making circles and getting nothing. No spiritual revelation. Nothing at all. So, I would like to know how to make God to reveal himself to me.

Just to give more information about my backgrounds, before seeking the christian God, I used to be a skeptical agnostic.

Thanks in advance.

Hi there. I think the relevant verse for your question is John 14:21, and you would read the surrounding passages to get the context. Just what it means to accept His commandments and obey Him is between you and Him, but from experience and observation I believe the conscience will let you know.

As for your comment here, I like to see you thinking this way, but I have a question about why you say that those who don't believe in Him will be punished. I know this is a popular belief, but I can't remember reading a statement in the bible that says this, do you know if it is scriptural?

 

[andy b]

The way to heaven isnt signposted as Jesus says.....Finding God for me is a personal heart felt thing that comes when you dont expect it in a way you wouldn't expect either,To live like jesus in this physical plain is a mountain to climb but i think its something you can asipe to in your inner heart ...maybe as he says when the inner is the outer you have cracked it

 

[Soul2Soul]

Hi TruthSeeker3,

Firstly, welcome to CF.

Having read through your post I take it that you believe in God from a Christian perspective. I am unsure about what you would classify as a spiritual revelation from God - perhaps you could share some thoughts on this?

I would like to address some of your other concerns as well but it seems that for now the main problem for you is - can I assume - a lack of connection between God and you?

 

[TruthSeeker3]

Hi there. I think the relevant verse for your question is John 14:21, and you would read the surrounding passages to get the context. Just what it means to accept His commandments and obey Him is between you and Him, but from experience and observation I believe the conscience will let you know.

As I said in my first post, I have been trying to keep the commandments I am supposed to keep in order to make God reveal himself to me but it's extremely hard and the last 2 and half years I have got nothing.

As for your comment here, I like to see you thinking this way, but I have a question about why you say that those who don't believe in Him will be punished. I know this is a popular belief, but I can't remember reading a statement in the bible that says this, do you know if it is scriptural?

We all know that for both Judaism and Islam, not believing in God would mean to be lost. In the specific case of Christianity, you can only be saved by accepting Jesus as saviour (which obviously implies to believe), and if you don't, you will be lost (which is equal to that you are going to the hell)

This appears here:

Mark 16

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[TruthSeeker3]

Hi TruthSeeker3,

Firstly, welcome to CF.

Having read through your post I take it that you believe in God from a Christian perspective. I am unsure about what you would classify as a spiritual revelation from God - perhaps you could share some thoughts on this?

I would like to address some of your other concerns as well but it seems that for now the main problem for you is - can I assume - a lack of connection between God and you?

Hi Soul2Soul.

To be more accurate, as I said in first post, I am performing my own version of Pascal's Wager. I am betting for Christianity to be true, so now I am trying to confirm my bet by trying to make God reveal himself to me (that is the difference I have with respect to the original Pascal's Wager). But for simplicity, yeah, I believe or I am trying to believe in the christian God.

As a spiritual revelation I mean some kind of personal manifestation that God can provide you to reveal his reality to you. By this I don't mean indirect type of revelation like the complexity of universe, which is more like an intelectual sort of revelation that is used by the supporters of the Intelligent Design position (which, by the way, helps me in my bet).
I actually provided an illustrative example of spiritual experience in the post, namely, the baptism of the Holy Spirit or any other experiences with the Holy Spirit. As a reference, I mentioned the book "Good Morning, Holy Spirit", written by Benny Hinn, which I am currently reading. But, yeah, I mean some sort of personal experience which would give me a real connection between God and me, so that I can verify by myself that God is real and that he is actually the christian God.

If I achieve that, then that would be an existential revolution for me.

 

[bling]

No one has brought forth any “theories” (something that can be checked out scientifically and reproducible) on how: a complex universe with apparent fine tuning could ever happen, a even more complex machine that could create endless universes (if this is an alternative) and the creation of life from just chemicals (non living). So why can’t God be an alternative and maybe a likely alternative?

Should we not doubt those that have no answers as much or more than those that provide an alternative for your review (at least they believe what they are saying).

I’ve listened to atheist preach these elaborate tails of how infinite parallel universes are out there, but the greatest tails are about how chemicals (I am a chemist) came together easily making life.

Look if there is a God that has been around forever, he would have developed the perfection, being the greatest Lover there could be. That Love would be so great it would control all His actions and thus compel Him to make beings that could Love like He loves (Love being the most powerful force in all universes). This “Love” would be given to these beings as a free undeserving and yet unconditional gift, but the beings would not be forced to receive the gifts (that would not be loving on God’s part) and could not be made with the Love (that would be a robotic type love).

So our whole reason for being on earth would be to just accept this Love (with like perceived alternatives so it is not forced on us). God would thus be doing all He could to help those that are just willing to accept His help (not forcing) to fulfill their objective.

This seeming messed up world (tragedies, evil running around, sin and death) all seem to be designed to help humans accept God’s gift as Charity which is the only way it can be received.

It all seems to be perfectly logical.

God is Love, but how do we define this Love and measure this Love?

This Godly type Love is defined by Jesus’ words and deeds (you can also use 1 Cor 13 and 1 John 4), so what is that?

Can we measure the “love” one being has for another being by the amount the first being is willing to unselfishly sacrifice for the other being?


Is God this ultimate Lover? Would that “Love” compel even God to make beings that could Love like He Loves (this “Love of God” is totally unselfish [a measure of pure Love] and thus is not for God’s sake at all but is totally for the sake of others)?

So if God is not doing anything for His own sake and everything for the sake of others, would he be expecting or needing anything from man or would God just be trying to give the greatest gift He could give to man?

The reason this “Love” is the most powerful force in all universes is because it compels even God. So to have this Love would make us like God Himself, so why does God not just make us with this Love and place us in heaven?

Are there something God just cannot do: like make another Christ, since Christ was never made but always existed?

Could God place this Godly type Love in a person at his/her creation (an instinctive love) or would an instinctive love be like a robotic love and not like God’s Love?

Could God just force His Love on man against the “will” of man or would that be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun?

What does man need that he does not have instinctively in order for man to fulfill this Mission?

Man’s objective seems to be to obtain and grow this Godly type Love to fulfill the mission (statement) of Love God and secondly others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.

Our “objective” while here on earth is to just accept God’s gift as it was given as pure charity.

God is not trying to get you to do something, but is trying to give you something.

The problem is not sin (unforgiven sin is a huge problem), because God will forgive our sins which helps us to Love (…he that is forgiven much will Love much….) God hates sin, but does allow it so we can more easily accept His Love (in the form of forgiveness the easiest way for us to accept His charity). The problem is always our fulfilling our objective.

 

[TruthSeeker3]

No one has brought forth any “theories” (something that can be checked out scientifically and reproducible) on how: a complex universe with apparent fine tuning could ever happen, a even more complex machine that could create endless universes (if this is an alternative) and the creation of life from just chemicals (non living). So why can’t God be an alternative and maybe a likely alternative?

Should we not doubt those that have no answers as much or more than those that provide an alternative for your review (at least they believe what they are saying).

I’ve listened to atheist preach these elaborate tails of how infinite parallel universes are out there, but the greatest tails are about how chemicals (I am a chemist) came together easily making life.

Look if there is a God that has been around forever, he would have developed the perfection, being the greatest Lover there could be. That Love would be so great it would control all His actions and thus compel Him to make beings that could Love like He loves (Love being the most powerful force in all universes). This “Love” would be given to these beings as a free undeserving and yet unconditional gift, but the beings would not be forced to receive the gifts (that would not be loving on God’s part) and could not be made with the Love (that would be a robotic type love).

So our whole reason for being on earth would be to just accept this Love (with like perceived alternatives so it is not forced on us). God would thus be doing all He could to help those that are just willing to accept His help (not forcing) to fulfill their objective.

This seeming messed up world (tragedies, evil running around, sin and death) all seem to be designed to help humans accept God’s gift as Charity which is the only way it can be received.

It all seems to be perfectly logical.

God is Love, but how do we define this Love and measure this Love?

This Godly type Love is defined by Jesus’ words and deeds (you can also use 1 Cor 13 and 1 John 4), so what is that?

Can we measure the “love” one being has for another being by the amount the first being is willing to unselfishly sacrifice for the other being?


Is God this ultimate Lover? Would that “Love” compel even God to make beings that could Love like He Loves (this “Love of God” is totally unselfish [a measure of pure Love] and thus is not for God’s sake at all but is totally for the sake of others)?

So if God is not doing anything for His own sake and everything for the sake of others, would he be expecting or needing anything from man or would God just be trying to give the greatest gift He could give to man?

The reason this “Love” is the most powerful force in all universes is because it compels even God. So to have this Love would make us like God Himself, so why does God not just make us with this Love and place us in heaven?

Are there something God just cannot do: like make another Christ, since Christ was never made but always existed?

Could God place this Godly type Love in a person at his/her creation (an instinctive love) or would an instinctive love be like a robotic love and not like God’s Love?

Could God just force His Love on man against the “will” of man or would that be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun?

What does man need that he does not have instinctively in order for man to fulfill this Mission?

Man’s objective seems to be to obtain and grow this Godly type Love to fulfill the mission (statement) of Love God and secondly others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.

Our “objective” while here on earth is to just accept God’s gift as it was given as pure charity.

God is not trying to get you to do something, but is trying to give you something.

The problem is not sin (unforgiven sin is a huge problem), because God will forgive our sins which helps us to Love (…he that is forgiven much will Love much….) God hates sin, but does allow it so we can more easily accept His Love (in the form of forgiveness the easiest way for us to accept His charity). The problem is always our fulfilling our objective.

Ok, I understand that the christian God has a supreme concept of love, but how can I make God reveal himself to me?

 

[oi_antz]

As I said in my first post, I have been trying to keep the commandments I am supposed to keep in order to make God reveal himself to me but it's extremely hard and the last 2 and half years I have got nothing.

It will be difficult for me to really help you with this because I don't know you and I can't read your initial reaction to what I say. So with that in mind, I feel I can only offer my thoughts on what I see of your beliefs. I would suggest opening the Greek Interlinear Translation to see the most direct interpretation from the original words to English, without the contextual interpretation that is applied by the translator. In that context, I see precise words "the one having the directions of me and keeping them that one is the one loving me", which makes me want to ask you how you think someone can get His directives at all? Keep in mind the numerous factions of Christianity, all claiming different commandments. So, are you certain that the commandments you assume to be His directions really are His directions, how can you be sure, and how can you know that the ones you have accepted are the complete set?

We all know that for both Judaism and Islam, not believing in God would mean to be lost. In the specific case of Christianity, you can only be saved by accepting Jesus as saviour (which obviously implies to believe), and if you don't, you will be lost (which is equal to that you are going to the hell)

This appears here:

Mark 16

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Thanks for that, I do remember that verse now but had somehow forgotten to remember it. I suspect in part due to the similar statement in The Book of Mormon.

This only leaves the question what is the gospel and what must be believed in order to be saved? What do you think it means? Is there a minimum set of beliefs required?

 

[orangeness365]

try praying for God to give you faith in Jesus, pray that he talks to you, read the Bible, pray that you can see the future.

you can't make God appear to you. God has to decide to want to appear to you.

 

[paul1149]

I'm not sure how you mean the word "make" in "make God reveal Himself to me". But it's probably better to frame the question differently. God is under no obligation to do anything and can't be forced to do so.

It would be better to ask the question what must you do to find God. The parable of the sower is described by Jesus as the key to all the parables because it speaks of the heart. Finding God is a matter of the heart more than the head, though the head can well be part of the search. According to the parable, the key to bearing fruit in the kingdom is having a heart that is receptive to the implantation of the Word. Once that seed takes root, it will in due season bear fruit.

What preparing the heart means will vary in the particulars with each person. Isaiah said every valley must be exalted, and every mountain made level.

Jesus often put emphasis on coming into the kingdom as a child - that is, with simplicity of heart. He very often said to use what little faith you have, right now, rather than wishing for more. Mark 11.22-ff is one example of many.

One sign of a right heart attitude is willingness. In John 7.17 Jesus says:

​If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. -John 7:17​

This goes along with Jeremiah's promise:

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. -Jer 29:13​

Bottom line: you can't "make" God reveal Himself to you, but you can incline yourself toward Him and be faithful in what He has already given you, and He will meet you more than halfway.

 

[TruthSeeker3]

It will be difficult for me to really help you with this because I don't know you and I can't read your initial reaction to what I say. So with that in mind, I feel I can only offer my thoughts on what I see of your beliefs. I would suggest opening the Greek Interlinear Translation to see the most direct interpretation from the original words to English, without the contextual interpretation that is applied by the translator. In that context, I see precise words "the one having the directions of me and keeping them that one is the one loving me", which makes me want to ask you how you think someone can get His directives at all? Keep in mind the numerous factions of Christianity, all claiming different commandments. So, are you certain that the commandments you assume to be His directions really are His directions, how can you be sure, and how can you know that the ones you have accepted are the complete set?

Well, basically the directives of Christ can be found in the Bible. As I understand so far, the two main commandments of Christ are very known commandments of love: love for God in the first place and love for my neighbor in second place (including even my enemies). Eventually that love would move me to accomplish a third commandment which is to preach the gospel and make disciples. The love is presented as the fundamental force and motivation a christian is supposed to have to carry out anything in their life.

Now, I understand that this kind of love that Jesus talks about is a supernatural love which is poured out in one's heart by the Holy Spirit, and indeed the Bible says that it is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. So, logically, this leads me to conclusion that I need to be filled with the Holy Spirit. I have read and talked a lot about this issue with many people and the conclusion is that if I want to be filled with the Holy Spirit, which is a supernatural experience in itself by the way, I have to seek God with all my heart, with humility, with faith, doing my best to move away from sin and live a holy life to please God, so that I can become a clean vessel where God can pour out the Holy Spirit. This is exactly where I am having huge problems that I haven't been able to solve for about two years and half of frustrated seeking of God's revelation.
First of all, I have had a lot of trouble to make things out of heart because I am very used to do things according to very structured well-thought plans in an algorithmic fashion.
In second place, I have a lot of trouble to overcome frustration when I see that things are not working as I planned, so that I actually have periodical periods of throwing the towel. This frustration issue causes me a lot of difficulty to have faith, which in turn reduces highly the probabilities to make God reveal himself to me because faith is a very strict requirement to find him.
And in third place, I have a lot of trouble to live in holiness because I struggle with almost lifelong sinful habits I haven't been able to overcome. Also falling in sin works in cooperation with point 2, either as a cause or as a consequence.

As a result, I have periods of doing things seemingly well until I eventually fail, lose motivation, get frustrated, throw in the towell, and then I eventually reconsider it and try it back again. Roughly speaking this has been the constant the last two and half years.

Thanks for that, I do remember that verse now but had somehow forgotten to remember it. I suspect in part due to the similar statement in The Book of Mormon.

This only leaves the question what is the gospel and what must be believed in order to be saved? What do you think it means? Is there a minimum set of beliefs required?

Well, gospel is the good news of salvation for humanity by repenting and accepting Jesus as their saviour and lord. You must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, he came in flesh, died and then resurrected and you will be saved, as I understand.

 

[oi_antz]

Well, basically the directives of Christ can be found in the Bible. As I understand so far, the two main commandments of Christ are very known commandments of love: love for God in the first place and love for my neighbor in second place (including even my enemies). Eventually that love would move me to accomplish a third commandment which is to preach the gospel and make disciples. The love is presented as the fundamental force and motivation a christian is supposed to have to carry out anything in their life.

Now, I understand that this kind of love that Jesus talks about is a supernatural love which is poured out in one's heart by the Holy Spirit, and indeed the Bible says that it is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. So, logically, this leads me to conclusion that I need to be filled with the Holy Spirit. I have read and talked a lot about this issue with many people and the conclusion is that if I want to be filled with the Holy Spirit, which is a supernatural experience in itself by the way, I have to seek God with all my heart, with humility, with faith, doing my best to move away from sin and live a holy life to please God, so that I can become a clean vessel where God can pour out the Holy Spirit. This is exactly where I am having huge problems that I haven't been able to solve for about two years and half of frustrated seeking of God's revelation.
First of all, I have had a lot of trouble to make things out of heart because I am very used to do things according to very structured well-thought plans in an algorithmic fashion.
In second place, I have a lot of trouble to overcome frustration when I see that things are not working as I planned, so that I actually have periodical periods of throwing the towel. This frustration issue causes me a lot of difficulty to have faith, which in turn reduces highly the probabilities to make God reveal himself to me because faith is a very strict requirement to find him.
And in third place, I have a lot of trouble to live in holiness because I struggle with almost lifelong sinful habits I haven't been able to overcome. Also falling in sin works in cooperation with point 2, either as a cause or as a consequence.

As a result, I have periods of doing things seemingly well until I eventually fail, lose motivation, get frustrated, throw in the towell, and then I eventually reconsider it and try it back again. Roughly speaking this has been the constant the last two and half years.

When Jesus made that statement, He was explaining to Judas why He will only reveal Himself to some people and not everyone. Jesus said that He will love those who love Him, and that His recognition of their love for Him is in their obedience to His "direction". Now, consider what this word "direction" means in the context of a personal God. It means a bit more than knowing what is recorded in a collection of quotes. That is why faith is important, because it is the act of trusting what you know He is telling you. As St. Paul said, faith is the assurance of the things we do not see. This is why I asked how you can be certain that your acceptance of His commandments is complete.

Well, gospel is the good news of salvation for humanity by repenting and accepting Jesus as their saviour and lord. You must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, he came in flesh, died and then resurrected and you will be saved, as I understand.

That is a good summary of the gospel. When do you think it is important for the person to believe this? At the point of death?

 

[TruthSeeker3]

I'm not sure how you mean the word "make" in "make God reveal Himself to me". But it's probably better to frame the question differently. God is under no obligation to do anything and can't be forced to do so.

It would be better to ask the question what must you do to find God. The parable of the sower is described by Jesus as the key to all the parables because it speaks of the heart. Finding God is a matter of the heart more than the head, though the head can well be part of the search. According to the parable, the key to bearing fruit in the kingdom is having a heart that is receptive to the implantation of the Word. Once that seed takes root, it will in due season bear fruit.

What preparing the heart means will vary in the particulars with each person. Isaiah said every valley must be exalted, and every mountain made level.

Jesus often put emphasis on coming into the kingdom as a child - that is, with simplicity of heart. He very often said to use what little faith you have, right now, rather than wishing for more. Mark 11.22-ff is one example of many.

One sign of a right heart attitude is willingness. In John 7.17 Jesus says:

​If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. -John 7:17​

This goes along with Jeremiah's promise:

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. -Jer 29:13​

Bottom line: you can't "make" God reveal Himself to you, but you can incline yourself toward Him and be faithful in what He has already given you, and He will meet you more than halfway.

Very good bottom line and I think you have got to a key point in my personal situation.
I have a lot of trouble to do things out of heart. I am a very rational person and I am very used to do things according to structured well-thought plans in an algorithmic fashion. Furthemore, when my plan doesn't seem to be working, I begin to lose motivation and have to deal with negative thoughts and frustration. I can add as well that at the same time I have to struggle with almost lifelong sinful habits which make it even harder to remain in holiness. As a result, I experience periodical failures and somewhat depressing throwing-the-towel periods, and then I reconsider it and try it back again. This circular process has been the case the last two and a half years.

The reason why all of this worries me is because this truth-seeking process has existential implications for me, and existential convictions are the cornerstone in my decision-making mental structure. When I fail in the process to find God, and therefore finding the truth, then I fail in confirming my existential bet, so I return to a state of failure without existential convictions, and finally I lose motivation to do almost anything except when compelled by social pressure.

I have tried to break this by implementing new approaches. For example, I have lately been attending a church, I have spent a lot of time sharing my situation with people through internet and many have given me movitation to make new seeking-god attempts, but eventually I would fail again. Even I tried to get used to awake at 5:30 a.m to pray, then read the Bible, christian stuff, listen christian music and then fill the day just with activities either spiritual-oriented or productive, but in one way or another it seems that I am psychologically programed to lose the motivation at some moment, getting mentally weak enough to yield to some temptation, interrupting the whole process.

Being a former skeptical agnostic doing a customized version of the Pascal's Wager, it is very inconvenient for me to not have results, because the lack of results feeds the logical possibility that Christianity may not be true, so I have to fight back those negative thoughts when making a new attempt.

 

[TruthSeeker3]

When Jesus made that statement, He was explaining to Judas why He will only reveal Himself to some people and not everyone. Jesus said that He will love those who love Him, and that His recognition of their love for Him is in their obedience to His "direction". Now, consider what this word "direction" means in the context of a personal God. It means a bit more than knowing what is recorded in a collection of quotes. That is why faith is important, because it is the act of trusting what you know He is telling you. As St. Paul said, faith is the assurance of the things we do not see. This is why I asked how you can be certain that your acceptance of His commandments is complete.

As I explained you before, I am somehow trapped in an back-and-forth psychological process. I have alternating periods of doing things seemingly well and periods of desmotivation and failure. Basically, when I make a serious attempt of seeking God, first I try to make sure that I am very well prepared with enough motivation, with a very well structured plan that outlines all the activities I will do throughout the days, including times for prayer, reading the Bible, reading christian material, helping in houseworks if any, participating in church activities if any. I design my agenda in order to avoid as much as possible all the worldly things and try to be as spiritual as possible. However, eventually the moment comes when I fail to manage properly some situation of temptation and end up yielding to it.
When I recover motivation to seek God, I try to have as much faith as possible, which implies to fight negative thoughts, but when I eventually fail, I lose almost all my faith. As I said, it is a back and forth process.

Can you give me some concrete practical feedback in order to overcome this vicious circle and eventually find God?

That is a good summary of the gospel. When do you think it is important for the person to believe this? At the point of death?

There is a passage that says "today is the day of salvation". Ideally the earlier the moment a person believes, the better it is.

 

[paul1149]

Truth,

You could have been describing me. What happened in my life to disrupt the status quo was immense crisis. While I don't wish that on anyone, it did force me into a new paradigm, because there simply was no more doubt that I didn't have the resources to survive.

Most of my greatest advances have been borne of crisis. I seem to have to learn the hard way. I'm working on that.

I think it's good that you have perspective on yourself, and are consciously trying to move forward.

Remember, though, that one of the functions of the law is to teach us that we cannot succeed without Christ (Gal 3.24). So if you're trying these disciplines in your own strength, you are going to experience a frustrating Romans 7 situation. Only when we surrender and are secure in Christ does the spiritual rest come.

 

[oi_antz]

As I explained you before, I am somehow trapped in an back-and-forth psychological process. I have alternating periods of doing things seemingly well and periods of desmotivation and failure. Basically, when I make a serious attempt of seeking God, first I try to make sure that I am very well prepared with enough motivation, with a very well structured plan that outlines all the activities I will do throughout the days, including times for prayer, reading the Bible, reading christian material, helping in houseworks if any, participating in church activities if any. I design my agenda in order to avoid as much as possible all the worldly things and try to be as spiritual as possible. However, eventually the moment comes when I fail to manage properly some situation of temptation and end up yielding to it.
When I recover motivation to seek God, I try to have as much faith as possible, which implies to fight negative thoughts, but when I eventually fail, I lose almost all my faith. As I said, it is a back and forth process.

Can you give me some concrete practical feedback in order to overcome this vicious circle and eventually find God?

I can tell you that your description of faith is a lot more regimented than mine. I am a very relaxed Christian, even worldly by most common standards of assessment. But I have been blessed with strong faith and a clear concept of Christian truth. I might recommend considering the meaning of John 8:34-36 in context of Hebrews 10:14. Find out how many Christians say they don't sin, and find out if they are telling the truth. Then you will know how to be free of sin, and why common Christian teaching states that we are powerless against it.

Faith is not achieving perfection, it is accepting His commandments and obeying Him. If He wanted us to be perfect, He would make us perfect, and that is what is written He has done by atonement. However, we must still learn, and how would we learn if we did not make mistakes? We all make mistakes. Repentence is acknowledging your mistake and implementing change. It is an ongoing process of honest reaction to His direction with regards to the events in your life. His commandments therefore are not all specified in the bible, but are actually Him living and speaking to our heart. I like what that Paul guy said to you a bit earlier.

There is a passage that says "today is the day of salvation". Ideally the earlier the moment a person believes, the better it is.

Do you know why?

 

[dlamberth]

Can you give me some concrete practical feedback in order to overcome this vicious circle and eventually find God?

I'd say, don't try to find God. Just be Loving, and Compassionate and try to find ways to help those in need. If you do those things, God will find you.

The spiritual feedback will come back to you from those whom you are Loving and compassionate with...and who you helped because they were in need. You will see the gratitude in their eyes.

The lessons you will be learning are how to be Loving and Compassionate and finding ways to help those who need help. It's not always easy to learn those things, but the pay off is huge because that's how God is made a reality in ones life.

.

 

[oi_antz]

I'd say, don't try to find God. Just be Loving, and Compassionate and try to find ways to help those in need. If you do those things, God will find you.

The spiritual feedback will come back to you from those whom you are Loving and compassionate with...and who you helped because they were in need. You will see the gratitude in their eyes.

The lessons you will be learning are how to be Loving and Compassionate and finding ways to help those who need help. It's not always easy to learn those things, but the pay off is huge because that's how God is made a reality in ones life.

.

This is an awesome statement of how to be genuine in your faith, not trying to achieve salvation but obeying the direction He gives you, and He will love you for it. Thanks for saying this, dlamberth!

 

[TruthSeeker3]

Truth,

You could have been describing me. What happened in my life to disrupt the status quo was immense crisis. While I don't wish that on anyone, it did force me into a new paradigm, because there simply was no more doubt that I didn't have the resources to survive.

Most of my greatest advances have been borne of crisis. I seem to have to learn the hard way. I'm working on that.

I think it's good that you have perspective on yourself, and are consciously trying to move forward.

Remember, though, that one of the functions of the law is to teach us that we cannot succeed without Christ (Gal 3.24). So if you're trying these disciplines in your own strength, you are going to experience a frustrating Romans 7 situation. Only when we surrender and are secure in Christ does the spiritual rest come.

Can you explain me how can I reach this "surrendered and secure in Christ" state? I ask you because this sounds very abstract to me. Indeed, a lot of things in Christianity sound so abstract that I usually tend to use the following approach when I try to apply them:

When I try to apply abstract advices like the highlighted in red, what I usually do is to prepare myself psychologically in order to declare in my mind that I am entering in that new psychological state. For instance, you said me that I should surrender and be secure in Christ. Since I don't see Christ anywhere physically to go to him, therefore I have to believe that he is real in first place, which implies to induce in my mind a state of believing. To achieve this believing state, I have to build up motivation (this feeling of "Yes, this is going to work!), so what I usually do is to read or see a lot of motivational material, for example, a lot of testimonies of real spiritual experiencies with God. Also I often use christian music to get in a more relaxed positive psychological state. When I feel that I am really motivated and that I want to believe, then I go to next step of "entering in the state of doing the things correctly". In this case, I would have to surrender and be secure in Christ, so what I would do next is to construct this new psychological state of "being surrendered and secure in Christ". I would probably pray and try to convince myself that I am entering that new state.

So, as you can see, everything seems be working at the psychological level. I just create mindsets in myself to allow me to do things with motivation. When I lose this positive mindsets (which happens periodically), then I lose the background to take decisions accordingly. But the point is, I am no looking for mindsets, what I am looking for it's the Truth, and to be more precise, I looking for a real experience of revelation of God to me. I want God to reveal himself to me. The reason why I make use of this psychological approach is because it is the only practical concrete strategy that I know that can allow me to take decisions.

But the objective is the following: the idea is to remain as much time as possible doing the things correctly so that God would eventually reveal himself to me. The problem is that I hardly bear about a week doing things correctly before my mindset gets broken and I come back to the status quo.

I want to make clear again that my objective is to get that God reveal himself to me. I am a former skeptical agnostic who voluntarily decided to take the challenge of seeking the christian God doing a customized version of the Pascal's Wager as I tried to explain the best I could in my first post.

The Roman 7 situation is actually a very good way to refer to what is happening in my case. But the solution you gave me (highlighted in red) moves me to take the approach I explained in the previous paragraphs, which would eventually fail.

I understand that something must happen in spiritual reality in order for things to work, but in my case it seems that nothing is happening spiritually.

I think that I am such a complicated person that the advices I should receive should be ad hoc, i.e. according to my exact particular situation.