How can I bring the presence of God into my room or other "intimate" place?

[aiki]

In other words, you are claiming that Paul Washer unconsciously fabricated an hallucination.

A hallucination? I don't recall Paul W. saying he saw anything in the story he related. No man has seen God at any time, the Bible says. (1 John 4:12)

"Feelings come and feelings go,
And feeling are deceiving.
My warrant is the word of God,
Nought else is worth believing."

People can make themselves feel all sorts of things - and feel them very powerfully. Why in the world, then, would anyone trust their feelings over what God's word says?

When I was a younger man (in my 30's) I grew very unhappy with my life. Very unhappy. So much so that I began to have breathing issues. I felt constantly like I was suffocating. It was very unpleasant and finally prompted me to go to the hospital. I was given a thorough once-over and declared to be perfectly fit; my lungs and heart were functioning just fine. My doctor, though, asked me if I was stressed out. He suggested to me that what I was feeling wasn't real, but just a symptom of profound stress - which, in my case, was coming from my great unhappiness with my life. He was right. And as I went to God for a remedy and applied His way to freedom, my breathing issues resolved.

I've met quite a number of people over the years who have stories of this sort, too. Stomachaches, headaches, back pain, vision issues - all were illusory they discovered, having nothing to do with a real physical issue (I'm NOT saying this is always the case with the pain people experience). I don't think I'm being unreasonable at all, then, to think Paul W's story was more an experience of himself, of his want, than of God. And when I examine Paul's story in the light of Scripture, I find even more reason to doubt that what He claims was a meeting with God actually was.

Luke 11:5-13
5 Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose you have a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread; 6 a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have no food to offer him.’ 7 And suppose the one inside answers, ‘Don’t bother me. The door is already locked, and my children and I are in bed. I can’t get up and give you anything.’ 8 I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacity he will surely get up and give you as much as you need.

9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

Have you considered that this passage sets out a contrast rather than a comparison and is indicating that we don't have to "pound incessantly on God's door" in order to get from Him the Holy Spirit? To whom was Jesus speaking when he told the story above? Born-again Christians? No. There were none until Acts 2 - after his crucifixion and resurrection. So, his comments above weren't given to believers in whom the Holy Spirit already dwelt but to the lost waiting for the Atonement.

Is God described in Scripture as begrudging toward us, only responding when we have bothered Him sufficiently to force Him to act? Absolutely not! Read 1 John 4:7-11 or Romans 5:6-10. If God was like the sleeping neighbor in Jesus's story, Paul the apostle would be wrong about our works have nothing to do with our salvation. (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) What could be more a work than to pound and pound upon God's door 'til you get the Holy Spirit?

It seems very obvious to me, then, that the sleeping neighbor is set in contrast to God. God is not a sleeping neighbor who must be pestered in order to help us. And Jesus even indicates this when he says what he does in verse 13.

Does Jesus say in verse 9 that we ought to act just like the woman who needed bread from her neighbor? Does he say, "Knock persistently, over and over again, and then the door will be opened to you"? Does he say, "For everyone who asks repeatedly, time and time again, will receive"? Does he say, "The one who searches, and searches, and searches some more will find"? No, he doesn't.

Using this passage, then, to defend your point of view fails pretty badly, it seems to me. It certainly doesn't serve to poke holes in mine. In any case, I do notice that you don't really engage with what I've explained. You aren't investigating, but simply defending. And this is why I don't really want to talk much more with you. It's pointless.

Luke 4:14 (Jesus after 40 days of fasting in the desert)
14 Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside.

Are you suggesting that God incarnate - Jesus Christ - was filled with God the Holy Spirit only after he spent forty days in the wilderness? And are you indicating that this description of what he did is prescriptive for all those who are born-again, who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

Genesis 32:24-30
24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.” But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” 27 The man asked him, “What is your name?” “Jacob,” he answered. 28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.” 29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.” But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there. 30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”

See, here, again, you demonstrate that you aren't really considering carefully what I'm writing to you but are simply reflexively throwing up Scripture, rather blindly I might add, in rejection of my comments. As I already explained in an earlier post, What Jacob did no born-again believer is required to do. All who are indwelt by God's Spirit have as much of God as they can get. And as the many verses I posted to you (that you've just ignored) tell us, we find ourselves filled by the Spirit, not as we wrestle with him, but as we yield, surrender, submit and humble ourselves before him.

Jeremiah 29:10-14
10 This is what the Lord says: “When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my good promise to bring you back to this place. 11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. 12 Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back from captivity. I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile.”

And, again, you are trying to use the dynamic between God and those who were not born-again, as a pattern for those who are born-again and have the Holy Spirit living within them. The passage above was given to wayward Israel, not to New Testament children of God; it was given to an entire nation, which, as a nation, was to seek God in order to be found by Him.

It really is a concern to see how badly you are applying these passages. Have you never been discipled in the faith?

 

[aiki]

Next time when you feel something from the spirit of God come back to tell me the spirit of God doesn't feel because its an 'spirit' inert or something, i don't know where that idea comes from, if you don't feel soemthing in this earth you will in heaven anyway. Better if we get some of that in the earth too why not.

I told you why not. Clearly, you aren't reading my posts carefully at all. So, I'll just end here with you, then.

God's blessings on you.

 

[NBB]

I told you why not. Clearly, you aren't reading my posts carefully at all. So, I'll just end here with you, then.

God's blessings on you.

Because scriptures doesn't mention this? yes i have read that, and there is lots of stuff the bible doens't mention.

 

[NBB]

I told you why not. Clearly, you aren't reading my posts carefully at all. So, I'll just end here with you, then.

God's blessings on you.

I don't see why you would think my experience is not worth much, when the bible is made from the experiences of people, they were normal christians/people with experiences too.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

A hallucination? I don't recall Paul W. saying he saw anything in the story he related. No man has seen God at any time, the Bible says. (1 John 4:12)

From the Wikipedia's article on Hallucinations:

Hallucinations can occur in any sensory modality—visual, auditory, olfactory, gustatory, tactile, proprioceptive, equilibrioceptive, nociceptive, thermoceptive and chronoceptive.
​

They don't need to be visual, hallucinations can happen in any sensory modality.

People can make themselves feel all sorts of things - and feel them very powerfully. Why in the world, then, would anyone trust their feelings over what God's word says?

We are specifically talking about the sudden overwhelming experience of "glory", "holiness" and "joy", borrowing expressions from Paul Washer's account of his encounter with God -- which by the way I've heard in other testimonies too, this is not the first time.

Paul Washer had this extraordinary experience after months of failed attempts at seeking an encounter. Do you have any solid evidence backed up by Science (e.g. Psychology, Neuroscience or any related field) that people can delude themselves into experiencing glory, joy and ecstasy all of a sudden, after a long period of many months without success?

When I was a younger man (in my 30's) I grew very unhappy with my life. Very unhappy. So much so that I began to have breathing issues. I felt constantly like I was suffocating. It was very unpleasant and finally prompted me to go to the hospital. I was given a thorough once-over and declared to be perfectly fit; my lungs and heart were functioning just fine. My doctor, though, asked me if I was stressed out. He suggested to me that what I was feeling wasn't real, but just a symptom of profound stress - which, in my case, was coming from my great unhappiness with my life. He was right. And as I went to God for a remedy and applied His way to freedom, my breathing issues resolved.

I've met quite a number of people over the years who have stories of this sort, too. Stomachaches, headaches, back pain, vision issues - all were illusory they discovered, having nothing to do with a real physical issue (I'm NOT saying this is always the case with the pain people experience). I don't think I'm being unreasonable at all, then, to think Paul W's story was more an experience of himself, of his want, than of God. And when I examine Paul's story in the light of Scripture, I find even more reason to doubt that what He claims was a meeting with God actually was.

This is just anecdotal evidence that people can make themselves feel bad, which has nothing to do with the kind of experiences reported by Paul Washer and all the other testimonies listed in the OP.

Do you have any evidence whatsoever that people can make themselves hallucinate powerful encounters with God in which they experience exuberant joy, peace, love, glory, holiness, etc.?

Of course, psychedelic drugs are completely discarded, none of the testimonies I shared, including Paul's, involved the use of psychedelic drugs or other substances, so please don't bring up psychedelic drugs into the discussion.

Also, keep in mind that Paul Washer's experience was sudden and unexpected, and it was preceded by long months of frustrating failed attempts. You have to explain how the same technique was ineffective for several months but then one day it suddenly worked, producing an astonishing hallucination of a supernatural encounter.

Please share reputable sources to back up your claims, otherwise you have to be honest and admit that you are just speculating.

Have you considered that this passage sets out a contrast rather than a comparison and is indicating that we don't have to "pound incessantly on God's door" in order to get from Him the Holy Spirit? To whom was Jesus speaking when he told the story above? Born-again Christians? No. There were none until Acts 2 - after his crucifixion and resurrection. So, his comments above weren't given to believers in whom the Holy Spirit already dwelt but to the lost waiting for the Atonement.

Is God described in Scripture as begrudging toward us, only responding when we have bothered Him sufficiently to force Him to act? Absolutely not! Read 1 John 4:7-11 or Romans 5:6-10. If God was like the sleeping neighbor in Jesus's story, Paul the apostle would be wrong about our works have nothing to do with our salvation. (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) What could be more a work than to pound and pound upon God's door 'til you get the Holy Spirit?

It seems very obvious to me, then, that the sleeping neighbor is set in contrast to God. God is not a sleeping neighbor who must be pestered in order to help us. And Jesus even indicates this when he says what he does in verse 13.

Does Jesus say in verse 9 that we ought to act just like the woman who needed bread from her neighbor? Does he say, "Knock persistently, over and over again, and then the door will be opened to you"? Does he say, "For everyone who asks repeatedly, time and time again, will receive"? Does he say, "The one who searches, and searches, and searches some more will find"? No, he doesn't.

Using this passage, then, to defend your point of view fails pretty badly, it seems to me. It certainly doesn't serve to poke holes in mine. In any case, I do notice that you don't really engage with what I've explained. You aren't investigating, but simply defending. And this is why I don't really want to talk much more with you. It's pointless.

Summarizing your point of view:
1) You do agree that the passage is saying that we should ask in order to receive.
2) However, you do not agree that the passage supports asking for a long time. You do not agree with the "persistent asking" interpretation of the passage.

Well, we both agree that the passage is very clear about the need to ask in order to receive. Believers are being promised that if they ask they will receive, that if they knock, the door will be opened, etc. That's undeniably clear from verse 9. Moreover, verse 8 is clearly highlighting the value of persistence in asking when there is delay in the answer:

8 I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacity he will surely get up and give you as much as you need.​

You say that verse 9 is not defending long periods of persistent asking. Well, in the whole passage we are never told that the answer would be instantaneous either. Verse 13 only talks about the willingness of God to give the Holy Spirit (and good gifts in general) to his children, but the text is mute regarding the time aspect. In fact, verse 8 is valuing and highlighting the shameless audacity of someone who keeps knocking on the door, which is quite the opposite of the "instant response" position you seem to advocate.

Moreover, in the Bible we have plenty of evidence that good gifts, blessings and promises from God are not always instantaneous, and that sometimes believers are expected to endure delays patiently. For example, Israel had to endure 40 years in the desert before entering the promised land; Abraham had to endure 25 years before Isaac was born; Noah had to endure 120 years of ridicule by skeptics, until the flood finally took place; the 120 disciples and apostles had to wait patiently for multiple days in the upper room before they received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

I highly encourage you to watch the following sermon:

Why Do We Have to Wait? Great Lesson! - Derek Prince

Are you suggesting that God incarnate - Jesus Christ - was filled with God the Holy Spirit only after he spent forty days in the wilderness? And are you indicating that this description of what he did is prescriptive for all those who are born-again, who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

No, but he certainly unleashed greater levels of power from the Spirit after those 40 days of fasting. So it validates my point: Jesus had to endure a challenging test in order to unleash the power of the Spirit. Otherwise, why waste 40 days in useless fasting if he already had the power from the start? Why would Jesus then say to his disciples that certain demons cannot be cast out without prayer and fasting?

See, here, again, you demonstrate that you aren't really considering carefully what I'm writing to you but are simply reflexively throwing up Scripture, rather blindly I might add, in rejection of my comments. As I already explained in an earlier post, What Jacob did no born-again believer is required to do. All who are indwelt by God's Spirit have as much of God as they can get. And as the many verses I posted to you (that you've just ignored) tell us, we find ourselves filled by the Spirit, not as we wrestle with him, but as we yield, surrender, submit and humble ourselves before him.

You are missing the point. Jacob's wrestling with God is a clear example that God can value the perseverance and faith of someone who is desperately seeking him. Otherwise, why would God reward him by changing his name to Israel and blessing him? If what Jacob did was terrible before the eyes of God, why would He bless him? If Paul Washer was equally desperate to the point that he endured a long period of seeking, why would it surprise you if God decided to reward him too? Again:

8 I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacity he will surely get up and give you as much as you need.​

And, again, you are trying to use the dynamic between God and those who were not born-again, as a pattern for those who are born-again and have the Holy Spirit living within them. The passage above was given to wayward Israel, not to New Testament children of God; it was given to an entire nation, which, as a nation, was to seek God in order to be found by Him.

So are you saying if someone seeks God with all their heart, they will not be able to find Him because that promise was for Israel only and it's no longer valid in the New Covenant? Are you seriously saying if someone is desperate to find God today, there is no hope and they are pretty much screwed because that promise is unfortunately no longer applicable?

 

[TruthSeek3r]

@aiki watch this video:

Paul Washer believes that the Holy Spirit still works today.

 

[Chris35]

You will notice in the majority of testimony of those who have truly found Jesus have this in common.

They were searching for God from their heart, they asked God for truth, they wanted to know him.

From what i can tell however, you come from a different position. You want an experience. The question is, do you want God in your life?

If so, i believe you need to take a step back, and realize that the way your trying to do it, just isnt working. You need to come to God, not asking for an encounter, but asking him to break down the walls that are stopping you.



Eg. God, from the testimonies over others, i do believe there is something there, that you may indeed exist, and if you exist, i do want to know you. Im not sure what is stopping me from coming to you, im not sure why i need evidence to believe. God, i ask, that you tear down these walls within my heart, that you do whatever it takes to lead me unto you.

You need to realize that its not a spiritual experience that you need, but that you cant find God through your own wisdom, and that you need God to do the work in you.

 

[Chris35]

God Will Make a Way (with lyrics)

 

[TruthSeek3r]

From what i can tell however, you come from a different position. You want an experience.

I think experiences shouldn't be downplayed. Otherwise, if no one ever had any experience with the spiritual realm at all, no one would ever know it exists. Because think about it: if we are trapped in the physical realm (let's call it A) and there is a spiritual realm (let's call it B), if A and B were completely independent of each other, without any kind of information transmission or interaction between the two, there would be no way for us, trapped in A, to know about B's existence. There has to be some sort of A-B interaction in order for us to have any hope of knowing that B exists. Thus, you have basically two options to know that B exists: 1) personally witness an A-B interaction yourself or 2) hear about others' personal experiences with A-B interactions.

Seeing the matter in this way, when you read the Bible, you are essentially reading about other people's personal accounts of A-B interactions.

So, this is the point: if A-B interactions are possible, are they an exclusivity of a very rare and select group, or can anyone in principle have access to A-B interactions, provided that they take the appropriate steps?

The question is, do you want God in your life?

I mean, of course, by all means. Having a personal encounter with God will have earth-shattering implications and very likely change pretty much everything going forward, but I'm totally fine with that. The benefits of a personal encounter totally outshine any possible dramatic "life adjustments" I may need to make, so yeah, I'm totally down for it.

If so, i believe you need to take a step back, and realize that the way your trying to do it, just isnt working. You need to come to God, not asking for an encounter, but asking him to break down the walls that are stopping you.

Interesting. I'm not sure if I'm fully understanding this though. What do you mean by "walls"? Can you share some examples? Also, stopping me from what?

Eg. God, from the testimonies over others, i do believe there is something there, that you may indeed exist, and if you exist, i do want to know you. Im not sure what is stopping me from coming to you, im not sure why i need evidence to believe. God, i ask, that you tear down these walls within my heart, that you do whatever it takes to lead me unto you.

What do you mean by "coming to God"? What does it mean "to come to God"? Some sort of A-B interaction?

You need to realize that its not a spiritual experience that you need, but that you cant find God through your own wisdom, and that you need God to do the work in you.

If you completely rule out any possibility of A-B interactions, what else is left?

 

[Chris35]

if we are trapped in the physical realm (let's call it A) and there is a spiritual realm (let's call it B), if A and B were completely independent of each other, without any kind of information transmission or interaction between the two, there would be no way for us, trapped in A, to know about B's existence.

But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God.

Just as God sent a messenger to cleanse Isaiah, God sent His Son Jesus as the messenger to cleanse all. So when the seraph touched Isaiah's lips with the coal, Isaiah's sin/iniquity was removed. ... God prepared Isaiah to be His prophet by cleansing his lips.

We are indeed trapped in A, thats why God had to cleanse his prophets, so that B could interact with A. If A could interact with B, everyone would know God, and we wouldn't need prophets to get the message from B to A.

But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Now we have Jesus who cleanses, which allows A and B to happen.

You have a wall, in that you believe / insist that the only way is that you need a personal A and B to happen before you can accept and come to Jesus.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

You have a wall, in that you believe / insist that the only way is that you need a personal A and B to happen before you can accept and come to Jesus.

What do you propose instead?

 

[Chris35]

God our Savior, 4who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.

What can you do but repent, and ask for his mercy, ask him to tear down the walls, ask him to lead you to knowledge of the truth, ask him to open your eyes and your heart, so that you may know him.

You have seen alot of testimonies, i believe you know that it can take weeks, even months. You are stubborn but there is hope for you. Most people usually watch one and reject, but you have watched so many. Its possible God has already been working in you.

I will pray for you also.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

You have seen alot of testimonies,

Indeed, I have watched hundreds.

i believe you know that it can take weeks, even months.

That's true. In my personal case, it's been almost a year now.

You are stubborn but there is hope for you.

In what sense am I stubborn? What am I doing that indicates stubbornness on my part?

Most people usually watch one and reject, but you have watched so many.

That is because I have a very open mind and I am also studying testimonies and finding patterns for investigative purposes.

Its possible God has already been working in you.

Let's hope so.

I will pray for you also.

Thanks.

 

[Aaron_Bethlhm]

Who is Sovereign ? Who Reveals Salvation, according to Jesus' Giving Him Praise for doing so for little children ?
Remember this - "born not of the will of man"
"nor of the flesh" ?
"But the Will of The Father in Heaven" !
There is no other way.
Most all people are stubborn for one or for many reasons, or feelings, or emotions, or studies, or facts (they think), whatever - they just won't give up their own ideas.
They even may study day and night because they believe that in the Scriptures they will find LIFE ! (but Jesus says this to those who do this, who rejected Jesus!)

Then to the downtrodden, those worn out by religion, Jesus says "Come To Me"
and "I will comfort you, heal you, nurture you, and give you rest for your soul" ...
(paraphrased from/including what is in the Gospels in the Bible).

In what sense am I stubborn? What am I doing that indicates stubbornness on my part?

That is because I have a very open mind and I am also studying testimonies and finding patterns for investigative purposes.

 

[germo155]

yes, walk in your room or other "intimate" places and God will be there too. If you seek his manifested presence then that is for God to manifest and we can not conjure it up.

he is with us already, just that we are not aware due the noise and distractions

 

[tturt]

agree - dont downplay experiences Based on Jesus' comments while on earth said look at the signs and wonders "If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in Him." (John 10:37-38)

Praise and worship are key "Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name." Psa 100:4

Worship to Him not about Him. Try 3 min & if you're already worshipping Him for that long, you can increase.

 

[germo155]

agree - dont downplay experiences Based on Jesus' comments while on earth said look at the signs and wonders "If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in Him." (John 10:37-38)

Praise and worship are key "Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name." Psa 100:4

Worship to Him not about Him. Try 3 min & if you're already worshipping Him for that long, you can increase.

Cool. iam learning more and more. I heard people overcome lots sin, coz they are abiding in Jesus, whats ur take?

 

[tturt]

Definitely. Because you read Scripture such as those about Jesus' sacrifice, God's love, and the Holy Spirit guiding us, creates the desire to be His follower.. He is always speaking in Scripture helping us. That's the reason why some say this is my favorite Scripture, then in a few days This other verse is my favorite Scripture.

In relationship to sin, "No temptation has seized you beyond what people normally experience, and God can be trusted not to allow you to be tempted beyond what you can bear. On the contrary, along with the temptation he will also provide the way out, so that you will be able to endure." I Cor 10:13. The AMP states "without yielding, and will overcome temptation with joy]."

 

[tturt]

Something else - when in your prayer closet - wherever that is (Matt 6:6), you need to block out distractions. Even if your to-do list begins to be pressing, just write to-do or however you can to quickly dismiss it so you can get back to focusing on God. Psa 34

If you answer the phone or something else, you don't go back to where you were. Or you might have noticed this at church. There's worship music for awhile. Then some churches stop & do announcements. Do you notice a difference within a very few min.

 

[germo155]

Something else - when in your prayer closet - wherever that is (Matt 6:6), you need to block out distractions. Even if your to-do list begins to be pressing, just write to-do or however you can to quickly dismiss it so you can get back to focusing on God. Psa 34

If you answer the phone or something else, you don't go back to where you were. Or you might have noticed this at church. There's worship music for awhile. Then some churches stop & do announcements. Do you notice a difference within a very few min.

I of block distractions, only issue is thoughts but then my mind slowly becomes clear, music is ok, but we can able to do without it, iam just beginner and I dont now, I let Gods Grace teach me more, I dont think its wrong or right, important is tho show up and Gos knows our hearts that we want to be with him in he presence.

"If you answer the phone or something else, you don't go back to where you were. Or you might have noticed this at church. There's worship music for awhile. Then some churches stop & do announcements. Do you notice a difference within a very few min."

Can u explain clearly?