how can evolution describe sight, and hearing?

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Jerry: Good morning!

Ok... Can you help me find answers to some questions that this thread as raised?

(1) Where did I get my blue eyes? Why would I and people like me evolve blue eyes?

(2) Darwin's evolution does not have us only evolving from apes but also from many different lower species. Correct?

These lower species had eyes. Correct?

According to what I can find these lower species had eyes designed and wired quite differently than the human. Correct?

According to people who point away from intelligent design these eyes were actually constructed better than the human eye. Correct?

So explain to me what happened. If our eyes are truly inferior than why was this design selected when we were already in possession of a better design? How and why did retinas get turned and wiring become changed?

Susan: Immediately change that name you carry "Official Slime"!!!!!!!!

You were created in the image of God! Show that you know it!

LOL
I know that I was, but if you know me you will know that I am the official slime LOL

By the way I really have to leave now. It's almost 6:00 here.

/me stops herself from snoring

Originally posted by Stormy
Jerry: Good morning!

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Good morning!! (I'm afraid I can't stay long - I have to be getting ready and going to work...)

 

Ok... Can you help me find answers to some questions that this thread as raised?

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I'll give it a shot. 

(1) Where did I get my blue eyes? Why would I and people like me evolve blue eyes?

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Blue eyes probably evolved only once in humans (probably in europe a few thousand years ago). One adaptation of the vertebrate eye is an iris that is pigmented (contains proteins that absorb some light and and reflect some light) to keep light that does not enter through the pupil and lens from being interfered with by other light entering the eye through transluscent surfaces. This pigmentation probably arose gradually by small changes in the proteins that are embedded in cell membranes. After that, a small change in the protein's structure would affect its properties: i.e. which wavelengths were absorbed, and which were reflected. The blue eyed allele may differ in only a few amino acids from the brown eyed allele. Since most mutations are recessive with respect to their parent genes, blue eyes are a recessive trait, and you have to get a blue-eyed gene from each of your parents in order to flash your baby blues. 

(2) Darwin's evolution does not have us only evolving from apes but also from many different lower species. Correct?

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Yes

These lower species had eyes. Correct?

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Quite a few of them did... all of the vertebrates, and many of the invertebrates that led to them. 

According to what I can find these lower species had eyes designed and wired quite differently than the human. Correct?

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No, not according to the theory. The basic wiring was the same in the entire vertebrate lineage, with different adaptations making minor modifications to it as time went on.

According to people who point away from intelligent design these eyes were actually constructed better than the human eye. Correct?

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No. The only eyes that had better construction arose in the separate lineage of the cephalopods. They arose from eyes that developed independently in the ancient ancestors of the cephalopods and the ancient ancestors of our line. The two ancestors were cousins of one another. 

So explain to me what happened. If our eyes are truly inferior than why was this design selected when we were already in possession of a better design? How and why did retinas get turned and wiring become changed?

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It was never available in our gene pool. Our line had already split from the arthropod and mollusk lines when our eyes began to evolve. Without the better arrrangement there to select for, we cannot say that the design we do have was selected over the better design. Our's selected adaptations that made the best of the basic arrangement of the system available in our gene pool.

By the way - before you ask.. the blue eye mutation would have been selected out long ago if there was no reproductive advantage to it. You are likely thinking "how on earth do blue eyes contribute to survival"? Well they contribute to the survival of the families that possess the gene by adding to the reproductive success of that lineage. Its called sexual selection.

Jerry: Can you give me a list of animals or other life forms that evolution says we evolved from? I know Morat did at one time but I can not find it on the threads. If your there Morat can you tell me again?

Thanks

Storm... I can do something of the sort - although I will likely have to leave it to others to fill in some of my blanks..

See evolution tends to deal with the immediate ancestry of groups - so there are no single studies that trace the history of human evolution back to the first proto-cell. There is a large body of research that traces human evolution through the hominids to a primate ancestor of humans and chimps. There is a separate body of research that traces the primates to a eutherian mammal common ancestor, and another which traces the eutherian mammals back through the marsupials to the synapsids (reptile like creatures). These are traced to a certain amphibian group that I cannot name, and the amphibians are believed to have been derived from lobe-finned fish. The lobe-finned fish were a subset of the teleost (fish with jaws), who are derived from the jawless fish (descendents today include lampreys). I'm not sure how much is known about the history of jawlish fish. They were the first vertebrates, and were preceded by a large variety of invertebrates. Some invertebrate (my guess is a kind of large eel-like worm with a primitive spinal chord) is the likely ancestor of the jawless fish, and before that, another, more simple worm probably gave rise to the eel-like worm. Then we get lost in the pre-cambrian. At some point there was a very simple multicellular form probably more like a sponge than anything, and before that only unicellular organisms. Protozoans.

I'm sure you wanted more info, but that's about all I can give you, and it gets kind of speculative toward the end. There are likely others who know much more about it than I do..

Sorry to take so long to respond.. busy day at work today.

Look me in the eye!

Eyes give insight into human evolution

Scientists studying gorillas have 'proved' the rule that you should never trust someone who can't look you in the eye.

Researchers say humans are the only primates that have white around the eye's pupils. This means humans communicate non-verbally through their eyes - unlike all other primates.

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Humans can tell the feelings of others, such as whether someone is lying, being sincere or joking, through the expression in their eyes.

But other primates, which all have dark pupils, cannot communicate in the same way. Scientists believe this unique human characteristic is crucial to evolution.

Primates such as gorillas cannot follow another gorilla's gaze in the same was as humans can, or divine what another animal's intentions are by looking into their eyes.

Meeting a chimp's gaze can infuriate them or trigger an attack, says Robin Dunbar, professor of evolutionary psychology at Liverpool University.

Humans, by contrast, constantly look into each other's eyes for non-verbal signs - to see how someone is feeling, and whether they are being sincere or lying.

"Obviously, there are exceptions to this latter observation," Prof Dunbar told The Observer . "Particularly if you are in a Glasgow pub on a Saturday night.

"Only a human being can estimate what is going on in the mind of another member of their species... to assess that mental state, " Prof Dunbar added. "As they say, never trust a man who cannot look you in the eye."

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It seems that we somehow understand this at a very early age. As soon as a child learns to lie he also automatically avoids eye contact.

Now how would this evolve? It seems almost like a moral issue. Eyes that tell the truth even when our words lie. I think that I had heard once they are making detectors that tell if a person is lying or otherwise a danger by evaluating the eye. Anyone know what I am referring to?

  Humans, like most primates, are social creatures. Instinctive (and even learned) behaviors contribute to our survival and success as social creatures.

   Quite a few of our social cues are learned, but some are hardwired (as this appears to be). Why? *shrug*. It may be a simple fluke. It may be that lying simply doesn't come naturally to us (it is a feature of advanced cognition. To tell a lie requires creativity and heavy thinking, compared to telling the truth).

   But all-in-all, it's no more fascinating than the complex sexual culture of bonobos.

  As for "a list of things we evolved from", I'm not sure what you mean. Earlier hominids?