How can Christians justify this?

[Alithis]

Why is it fair that billions of people have to bear the punishment that was the direct result of just two individuals? Why has God chosen to initially separate himself from the rest of his creation because of Adam/Eve's decision? Is he justified in doing so?

Did they advise me before eating the fruit? Did I have any kind of say in the matter? Why should I believe that God is just in placing me in a sinful prison before I actually sinned?

If a person committed a crime in today's society, would the judge punish the offender or the offender and all his descendants?

who said it was fair?
who said billion bear the punishment of those two? it was the serpent who caused the resulting effect.
which sin is it you desire to be acquitted of by shifting blame and imputing fault onto another?

regardless of our limited comprehension..this hope remains..
because of what the Lord Jesus has done for us,we DON'T have to bear theirs nor our own punishment.

so a better question to ask is..
Why did one who was absolute in innocence,suffer brutally so that you could be utterly acquitted..how is that fair? ...
.. but such is his immeasurable love towards you.

 

[rick357]

"Original sin is not held against us as a personal sin"

But it is still held against us.

What you are speaking of "original sin" is a theology statment not scripture.
In the way God created Adam he made his breath one with Adam...so Adams life was a shared life with God....when Adam sinned he decided to be a self and seperate from God....seperation is what death is if you think about it...so when Adam became a self he died....when he had children they also like him were selves....when they lived out their own way they did things opposite of the life God still has and still offers you to take part in.
The death of self is what Adam passed to you....you choosing to be yourself caused sin....but God offers you to share his life and be one with him through trust in Jesus....but you must abandon self.

*[[Luk 17:33]] KJV* Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

 

[oi_antz]

Addressed to Alex, wrt the following statement:

What you are speaking of "original sin" is a theology statment not scripture.

According to what the story says, the effect of their sin, they hid from God. They became uncertain of their innocence (rightly or wrongly aside, they surely began to doubt what they previously thought they knew and thus to discover the knowledge of good and evil). But, God having in His wisdom been afraid of a human in such a state of uncertainty and lacking complete knowledge of good and evil living forever, chose to withhold the capacity for everlasting life from the human.

Thus, on the day they ate of the fruit, they were sure to die. Until that day, they were not sure to die, they had the right to sustain their life by God's providence.

The effect it has on us, so many generations down the line, is we have knowledge of good and evil. We cannot master sin though, so we cannot appeal to God for the fruit from the tree of life, to live forever. Only Jesus who had always submitted to God's will, had the right to that life. "No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

That is the theology of original sin, as I understand it today.

Keep in mind 1 John 4:1, study and think for yourself, disagree with anyone who is wrong regardless of your relationship to them, if your preference is to know the truth. But if your preference is not to know the truth, then you should acknowledge that instead of treating yourself as a fool.

 

[Alithis]

do not eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ..

the tree is the tree of the knowledge of ...

often a fruit is a description of the result of the tree ..or that which the tree brings forth -is its fruit
ie -if I rise up and bash you until you cease breathing .. the fruit of my action would be murder ..etc
so the fruit of the tree of knowledge made them hide .."Adam, where are you" ," I was afraid because I was naked and I HID myself "...
this is shame ..
the tree is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil .. the fruit ..IS SHAME .

 

[oi_antz]

do not eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ..

the tree is the tree of the knowledge of ...

often a fruit is a description of the result of the tree ..or that which the tree brings forth -is its fruit
ie -if I rise up and bash you until you cease breathing .. the fruit of my action would be murder ..etc
so the fruit of the tree of knowledge made them hide .."Adam, where are you" ," I was afraid because I was naked and I HID myself "...
this is shame ..
the tree is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil .. the fruit ..IS SHAME .

It would make more sense to say that an effect of eating the fruit was shame, but according to what the story says, Eve saw that the fruit of that tree was "desirable for gaining wisdom". (Gen 3:6, NIV)

 

[Receiver]

Why is it fair that billions of people have to bear the punishment that was the direct result of just two individuals?

They don't!
In fact you have the same choice of choosing your own "good and evil" & being independent from God, and choosing the Father - son/daughter relationship he offers. They chose wrong, you would be more foolish than them to see the consequences and then fall for the same delusion!!!

God held our his hand and tried to talk with Adam & Eve, he does the same to you.

They listened to lies and believed them. All the evidence is that you have been doing the same.

The good news is that you can come to your senses and find God, as many others have, they are his witnesses to you, or against you if you try & be "clever" and justify not doing the same.

 

[oi_antz]

They don't!

We do:

‘I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labour you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.’

‘Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.’

.. though this is probably not what OP was describing.

 

[Receiver]

We do: ...

.. though this is probably not what OP was describing.

We don't "have" to.

 

[oi_antz]

We don't "have" to.

Can you please explain this belief?

 

[Alithis]

It would make more sense to say that an effect of eating the fruit was shame, but according to what the story says, Eve saw that the fruit of that tree was "desirable for gaining wisdom". (Gen 3:6, NIV)

yes - thank you for the realignment

 

[alexiscurious]

False premises & assumptions have lead to confusion.
With all of this in mind, I don't believe in inherited guilt for sin. Each person is accountable for their own actions. Human beings - even in hypothetical perfect conditions (i.e. Garden of Eden) - still would choose to do wrong at some point, or otherwise succumb to spiritual sickness. That is one of the main takeaways of the Adam & Eve story.

So if you are not held accountable for Adam/Eve's sin, why should you suffer the same punishment as them? How did you earn access to the group we label as "sinners" if not through someone else's sin? What action on your part led you to being separated from your creator?

The answer cannot be your own sin. So tell me how we are not held accountable?

Human beings - even in hypothetical perfect conditions (i.e. Garden of Eden) - still would choose to do wrong at some point, or otherwise succumb to spiritual sickness.

This is an interesting statement. How can free will exist under the conditions you've just laid out for me? You've just limited how many "right" or "good" decisions a man can make.

 

[alexiscurious]

Because Adam and Eve sinned, we are born with a sinful nature. It is a consequence of their actions not a punishment God put on us.

Correct so far. But name me one person that thinks that sharing others consequences is fair? Do judges imprison a murderer and his entire family or just the murderer? If I go out and run a red light and crash into someone, do you think the other person will think that sharing the consequence of my recklessness is fair? How can God still be considered fair if he gives two people out of billions a blank slate to begin with? Do teachers in classrooms start everyone off with an A or an F?

We have sin because of their mistake, but we are still expected to obey God and when we sin it is our own faults. But fortunately God had a rescue plan in mind and so that's why he sent Jesus to die once and for all our sins. Now when we trust in him we are made righteous in God's sight. Adam and Eve got us into this situation, but it is Jesus who going to get us out, Hallelujah.

I think it's funny how Christians convince other people that they need to urgently fix a relationship that they did not break or they will be sentenced to eternity in hell. I think it's equally as amusing that God thinks it's fair that billions deserve to suffer as a result of two. Doesn't make much sense for a fair God.

 

[alexiscurious]

They don't!
In fact you have the same choice of choosing your own "good and evil" & being independent from God, and choosing the Father - son/daughter relationship he offers.

I actually don't have the same choice. When was I able to choose from paradise with God or separation? Last I checked, I was brought into the world already separated from God.

 

[Receiver]

I actually don't have the same choice. When was I able to choose from paradise with God or separation? Last I checked, I was brought into the world already separated from God.

You have the same 2 options open to you.
Given that fact, it would be silly to be argumentative.

 

[oi_antz]

I actually don't have the same choice. When was I able to choose from paradise with God or separation? Last I checked, I was brought into the world already separated from God.

Would Adam and Eve's offspring be less separated from God at birth than you are, if Adam and Eve had not sinned?

 

[alexiscurious]

Would Adam and Eve's offspring be less separated from God at birth than you are, if Adam and Eve had not sinned?

I don't see why God would be upset with them. They did nothing wrong. Why do they deserve his wrath?

 

[oi_antz]

I don't see why God would be upset with them. They did nothing wrong. Why do they deserve his wrath?

What is the reason you have to think He feels differently toward a newborn baby that is born after Adam and Eve have sinned?

 

[alexiscurious]

What is the reason you have to think He feels differently toward a newborn baby that is born after Adam and Eve have sinned?

Because all babies are born separated from God for something they did not do.

Ezekiel 20:18
A child will not be punished for a parent’s sin, and a parent will not be punished for a child’s sin.

Why do we all have to share Adam/Eve's punishment if this verse is true?

 

[rick357]

I don't see why God would be upset with them. They did nothing wrong. Why do they deserve his wrath?

We consist of dirt and water we life on a planet that is dirt and water...say I developed a way to turn water to acid but once the process started I couldnt control it and it wouldnt stop....soon enough I would have killed all life on the planet....does that mean God is angry at me....In the spirit God created us as a symbios...his life was our life...we broke that symbios and took on self life it became death....if God was being vengfull he could have stopped it there but he has put up with our destruction of his creation so that every man in Adams loins when he fell that would desire Gods life could have it

 

[alexiscurious]

This post was meant for another thread.