How can Christians justify Abortion?

[returntosender]

Why isn't this apart of who you select to run your country? People seem to be hung up on the presidency being filled with a man of valor, humility, high morals, decency, honorable, truth teller and the list goes on. Most of which is an impossibility and yet a president that believes in the legitimacy of abortion is welcomed in. I don't get it.
God says "Thou shalt not kill" and you say but that is not murder. A man or woman kills a baby clinically and you say that is not murder.
Please fill me in so I can understand.
Nicely and quietly tell me why you think abortion is okay for the president you choose if you don't believe in abortion.
There are few things we can control or change but this seems to be one we can make a difference in.
Thank you.

 

[Halbhh]

People can justify -- rationalize, make excuses, fool themselves -- about anything.

Even something like direct disobedience against an express command from God.

Example:
Leviticus 19:34 You must treat the foreigner living among you as native-born and love him as yourself, for you were foreigners in the land of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

As again confirmed for us today, still! --
Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.

In contrast:
Proclamation Suspending Entry of Aliens Who Present a Risk to the U.S. Labor Market Following the Coronavirus Outbreak | The White House

See?

It's why we need a Savior -- so that those humble enough to confess their wrongs and repent can be forgiven!

 

[Halbhh]

Why isn't this apart of who you select to run your country? People seem to be hung up on the presidency being filled with a man of valor, humility, high morals, decency, honorable, truth teller and the list goes on. Most of which is an impossibility and yet a president that believes in the legitimacy of abortion is welcomed in. I don't get it.
God says "Thou shalt not kill" and you say but that is not murder. A man or woman kills a baby clinically and you say that is not murder.
Please fill me in so I can understand.
Nicely and quietly tell me why you think abortion is okay for the president you choose if you don't believe in abortion.
There are few things we can control or change but this seems to be one we can make a difference in.
Thank you.

About abortion --

Abortions fell sharply during the 8 years of Obama, and reached an all time low in 2016 and another low in 2017,

But(!), abortions appear to me to be rising during 2018, at least by looking at quite a few individual states (6 of the 7 had rising numbers!).

When I checked again recently, federal nation wide data after 2017 is still oddly unavailable.

So....

That's one more reason why presidential character matters so much!

The President influences young adults, and their morals and choices!

This president once bragged about sexually groping women (not his wife).....

It matters.

 

[returntosender]

About abortion --

Abortions fell sharply during the 8 years of Obama, and reached an all time low in 2016 and another low in 2017,

But(!), abortions appear to me to be rising during 2018, at least by looking at quite a few individual states (6 of the 7 had rising numbers!).

When I checked again recently, federal nation wide data after 2017 is still oddly unavailable.

So....

That's one more reason why presidential character matters so much!

The President influences young adults, and their morals and choices!

This president once bragged about sexually groping women (not his wife).....

It matters.

informative but have you an excuse for Clinton and Kennedy? And other presidents that show poor examples? You are showing only the good of Obama, there will be for sure someone who will challenge you here.. Not to mention Obama was pro abortion. Hows that for setting an example?

 

[com7fy8]

Abortions fell sharply during the 8 years of Obama, and reached an all time low in 2016 and another low in 2017,

Well . . . I will accept this is true, take your word for this . . . since I have not done my homework. But you would think a liberal president would uphold and promote abortion by not opposing it, at least. But Barack is a family man, and they had two girls who grew up in the White House; so that could have encouraged people to keep their children.

And because Barack and Michelle and Sasha and Malia are of color, I am curious if this influenced black ladies to keep their children, so that the decrease of abortions was more among blacks.

But(!), abortions appear to me to be rising during 2018, at least by looking at quite a few individual states (6 of the 7 had rising numbers!).

Well, we have that adage that you attract more bees with honey. So, in case a pro-life politician relates like a dirtbag and a dictator, this could alienate people from the politician's promotion of pro-life.

And with pro-life a politician needs to have an example of being pro-love, in how he or she relates and communicates.

So, in case a politician has an anti-love example, this also can be someone I can not vote for.

In America's history we have had leaders who were pro-life religiously . . . I think, but they could be very ready to look down on certain people and have them killed in wars and other ways. And I would say America's real number-one national security problem, then, is how love is not sure. Ones, because of not being sure they are loved, can kill their own unborn with whom they could learn real love. But because ones do not know how to love in marriage, the United States has more than a fifty-percent divorce rate; and the children of this can grow up not knowing how to love in intimate sharing with another person. And their deep emotional ruin because of this is having bizarre manifestations > if you don't like the product, we need to stop what is producing it, in the home. No laws can make people find out how to love; but it is good to have the right legal standards, so this can confront what is wrong.

 

[Halbhh]

Well . . . I will accept this is true, take your word for this . . . since I have not done my homework. But you would think a liberal president would uphold and promote abortion by not opposing it, at least. But Barack is a family man, and they had two girls who grew up in the White House; so that could have encouraged people to keep their children.

And because Barack and Michelle and Sasha and Malia are of color, I am curious if this influenced black ladies to keep their children, so that the decrease of abortions was more among blacks.

Well, we have that adage that you attract more bees with honey. So, in case a pro-life politician relates like a dirtbag and a dictator, this could alienate people from the politician's promotion of pro-life.

And with pro-life a politician needs to have an example of being pro-love, in how he or she relates and communicates.

So, in case a politician has an anti-love example, this also can be someone I can not vote for.

In America's history we have had leaders who were pro-life religiously . . . I think, but they could be very ready to look down on certain people and have them killed in wars and other ways. And I would say America's real number-one national security problem, then, is how love is not sure. Ones, because of not being sure they are loved, can kill their own unborn with whom they could learn real love. But because ones do not know how to love in marriage, the United States has more than a fifty-percent divorce rate; and the children of this can grow up not knowing how to love in intimate sharing with another person. And their deep emotional ruin because of this is having bizarre manifestations > if you don't like the product, we need to stop what is producing it, in the home. No laws can make people find out how to love; but it is good to have the right legal standards, so this can confront what is wrong.

We pretty much agree. Consider though secular law from the government as the way to try to create morality -- consider that drunkenness is a sin (Gal 5:19-21 for instance), and then America passed law banning alcohol, Prohibition.

First those that wanted to get drunk continued to do so, and next, criminal gangs grew tremendously meeting the demand for illegal alcohol, and many people became accustomed to breaking the law to have drinks, and also to gathering with others that broke the law, where they engaged in additional bad behaviors....

The law trying to legislate the good resulted in more evil, an increase....

The only real way to create the good, to cause the good, is conversion.

It happens inside a person, not from governmental laws.

If we really want more good in the nation, we need to tell more people of Jesus Christ, the saving Good News.

 

[com7fy8]

If we really want more good in the nation, we need to tell more people of Jesus Christ, the saving Good News.

. . . and be "examples" > 1 Peter 5:3. People need to love meaning of God's word . . . how God's love has us doing things.

 

[SPF]

We pretty much agree. Consider though secular law from the government as the way to try to create morality -- consider that drunkenness is a sin (Gal 5:19-21 for instance), and then America passed law banning alcohol, Prohibition.

First those that wanted to get drunk continued to do so, and next, criminal gangs grew tremendously meeting the demand for illegal alcohol, and many people became accustomed to breaking the law to have drinks, and also to gathering with others that broke the law, where they engaged in additional bad behaviors....

The law trying to legislate the good resulted in more evil, an increase....

The only real way to create the good, to cause the good, is conversion.

It happens inside a person, not from governmental laws.

If we really want more good in the nation, we need to tell more people of Jesus Christ, the saving Good News.

Making abortion illegal isn't actually about legislating morality, it's about protecting the most innocent and vulnerable people in our country.

The laws we currently have regarding alcohol are meant to protect people, not legislate morality. For example, the drinking age is to protect our youth. Not drinking and driving is to protect both the drinker and people he may come in contact with. It's not about saying whether or not it's morally right to drink.

Speed limits are in place not because there is morality tied to how fast a car goes, but to protect the drivers on the road. Not allowing people under 15 to drive protects both the children and the people they may come in contact with.

Laws against stealing protect property owners.

Laws against murdering your neighbor are to protect your neighbor.

Abortion should be illegal, not because we are attempting to legislate morality, but because we are attempting to protect another human being who is innocent and vulnerable.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I am against abortion but abortion is not the only thing that matters. I favor a more holistic view of what is best for the country overall when casting my vote rather than being laser-focused on any one issue. POTUS is not as capable of impacting abortion law as most think other than filling SCOTUS vacancies. Once appointed justices do not always vote as anticipated. President Trump has had 4 years without changing abortion law. Still unchanged.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Why isn't this apart of who you select to run your country? People seem to be hung up on the presidency being filled with a man of valor, humility, high morals, decency, honorable, truth teller and the list goes on. Most of which is an impossibility and yet a president that believes in the legitimacy of abortion is welcomed in. I don't get it.
God says "Thou shalt not kill" and you say but that is not murder. A man or woman kills a baby clinically and you say that is not murder.
Please fill me in so I can understand.
Nicely and quietly tell me why you think abortion is okay for the president you choose if you don't believe in abortion.
There are few things we can control or change but this seems to be one we can make a difference in.
Thank you.

When Trump was elected he was pro life not pro choice.

 

[Halbhh]

Making abortion illegal isn't actually about legislating morality, it's about protecting the most innocent and vulnerable people in our country.

The laws we currently have regarding alcohol are meant to protect people, not legislate morality. For example, the drinking age is to protect our youth. Not drinking and driving is to protect both the drinker and people he may come in contact with. It's not about saying whether or not it's morally right to drink.

Speed limits are in place not because there is morality tied to how fast a car goes, but to protect the drivers on the road. Not allowing people under 15 to drive protects both the children and the people they may come in contact with.

Laws against stealing protect property owners.

Laws against murdering your neighbor are to protect your neighbor.

Abortion should be illegal, not because we are attempting to legislate morality, but because we are attempting to protect another human being who is innocent and vulnerable.

We generally agree on all of those but for one, a notable exception, as so many (most?) murders are not committed after thinking about the law and the possible consequences and calculating the odds or cost...but instead are crimes of anger committed in seconds before thought can kick in and prevent it.

So, to actually prevent murders, you need not only a law against murders, but you need to do good to change situations so that conditions are improved in many lives and thereby crimes of rage/anger become less common. This isn't a parallel to the question of abortion, or not entirely. While a young teen that is pregnant might be acting in fear without much reflection....well, that surely does happen...the main thing for us to do, really, is to truly make her know and feel that we can help her all the way through and adopt out the baby, and make the cost to herself as she sees it, in her viewpoint (not ours!), a low cost that she can tolerate and feel ok about. Such as supporting her all the way through her pregnancy, and helping her to have zero financial costs, and other aid, so that she doesn't panic and travel 600 miles or whatever, even to another country if that's what it takes, and in fear get an abortion.

 

[SPF]

We generally agree on all of those but for one, a notable exception, as so many (most?) murders are not committed after thinking about the law and the possible consequences and calculating the odds or cost...but instead are crimes of anger committed in seconds before thought can kick in and prevent it.

So, to actually prevent murders, you need not only a law against murders, but you need to do good to change situations so that conditions are improved in many lives and thereby crimes of rage/anger become less common. This isn't a parallel to the question of abortion, or not entirely. While a young teen that is pregnant might be acting in fear without much reflection....well, that surely does happen...the main thing for us to do, really, is to truly make her know and feel that we can help her all the way through and adopt out the baby, and make the cost to herself as she sees it, in her viewpoint (not ours!), a low cost that she can tolerate and feel ok about. Such as supporting her all the way through her pregnancy, and helping her to have zero financial costs, and other aid, so that she doesn't panic and travel 600 miles or whatever, even to another country if that's what it takes, and in fear get an abortion.

Sure. My point is simply that the argument that we shouldn't make abortion illegal because it isn't our place to legislate morality isn't a valid argument.

Making abortion illegal isn't about legislating morality, it's about protecting our nation's youngest, most innocent, and vulnerable people.

 

[Halbhh]

Sure. My point is simply that the argument that we shouldn't make abortion illegal because it isn't our place to legislate morality isn't a valid argument.

Making abortion illegal isn't about legislating morality, it's about protecting our nation's youngest, most innocent, and vulnerable people.

Ok, well, you are sorta preaching to the choir there. I do emphasize, and have more than once or twice, that outcomes matter, not just ideals. (See for instance Romans 2:6-16 in a readable translation like the NIV; outcomes matter, not only knowing what's right, but doing it). Also, how we come across matters a lot. For instance, at one extreme it can seem at times some pro-life person is acting as if they think death of this temporary mortal body is final: some can come across (in the worst case) as if they don't even believe in God, that the infant aborted would truly die, instead of living forever in bliss with our Lord....

--- the problem of abortion (say after 9 weeks in a perfectly healthy pregnancy) is for the person that did the abortion, not for the infant that will live forever with God!! -- God takes care of people. It's our own actions that are problems for us!

I mean that if we here really want to do good, we have to literally help people in distress. Actual help. So, to me a pro life person is someone who actually helps people. Not someone that preaches without doing.

 

[returntosender]

I am against abortion but abortion is not the only thing that matters. I favor a more holistic view of what is best for the country overall when casting my vote rather than being laser-focused on any one issue. POTUS is not as capable of impacting abortion law as most think other than filling SCOTUS vacancies. Once appointed justices do not always vote as anticipated. President Trump has had 4 years without changing abortion law. Still unchanged.

Rome wasn't built in a day. I think there is no easy solution so it won't happen in my lifetime I don't think.
No one has the answer for it yet. To me the best answer is to change peoples minds about their responsibility for their actions. Most Men particularly, don't show any care or responsibility for their actions in making a baby prior to marriage. Women are left on their own to make a decision that was caused by two people. So, it amounts to Love and education. Right now its all about self gratification and that is where a strong background in Gods word is important and so it comes down to parents and how they raise their children.
In the mean time what can we do? Because it is all about us.
Sorry for the book.

 

[SPF]

Most Men particularly, don't show any care or responsibility for their actions in making a baby prior to marriage.

Do you have some sort of study or source that supports this claim? Just curious.

 

[returntosender]

Do you have some sort of study or source that supports this claim? Just curious.

COMMON KNOWLEDGE. Out of the millions, how many boys/men have you seen go with the girls/women to get an abortion?? They could care less!
See now your sex is exposed. You are a male.

 

[SPF]

COMMON KNOWLEDGE. Out of the millions, how many boys/men have you seen go with the girls/women to get an abortion?? They could care less!
See now your sex is exposed. You are a male.

So you don't have any sort of studies or evidence other than your impression and feeling that it's common knowledge?

I know that I'm a man, and I care greatly. It's probably why my wife and I have fostered hundreds of children.

I see people like you often make unsupported generalizations without any support. It doesn't really have any place on a discussion forum.

 

[WolfGate]

Bluntly, we don't have either party that really opposes abortion. The Republicans pay it lip service, but also by their actions acknowledge that they aren't willing to burn the political capital to try and change anything. Bush had a Republican House and Senate for 4 years, and nothing meaningful happened. So when it comes to voting, and looking at actions when there was the opportunity, voting for the Presidential candidate of either major party is not really impacting the abortion issue.

 

[returntosender]

So you don't have any sort of studies or evidence other than your impression and feeling that it's common knowledge?

I know that I'm a man, and I care greatly. It's probably why my wife and I have fostered hundreds of children.

I see people like you often make unsupported generalizations without any support. It doesn't really have any place on a discussion forum.

Without any opinions there wouldn't be any discussion forums.

 

[SPF]

Without any opinions there wouldn't be any discussion forums.

Sure, but you didn’t give an opinion, you gave a what you believe is a statement of fact. You can’t expect to make blanket claims without any support and expect people to blindly agree with you.

If you aren’t prepared to support your claims, they’re probably not worth sharing.