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I apologize, read your post too quickly, and I will follow up with a more thoughtful reply later.That's a different issue, Mountain_Girl, one that you are bringing into the proposal that I'm suggesting (and one that, if I weren't so willing to accommodate other people's efforts, I might surmise was meant to provide an obstruction to the point I'm trying to suggest).
Sure....Hindus (of various yogas, castes, and stages of life), Buddhists (of either Big Raft or Little Raft belief), Muslims (of 3 or 4 kinds), Pagans (of both ancient and modern Wiccan strains), Shintoists, Taoists (Philosophical, or religious, or popular), along with Judaism's now multiplex of choices, and the many denominational perspectives on the Bible, will all have some peculiar values and a required "understanding of approach" by which to enter into that particular view. But, so what? Whether Christianity is true or not is not dependent on how those other religions view themselves or as to how they mandate their respective praxis in order for an adherent to carry on.
So, regardless of what the OTHER religions require, what I'm suggesting is that in order for you to begin to see Christianity as "true," regardless of the denomination you are in, there are some various contexts both inside and outside of the Bible which will have to be recognized as integral to an understanding of the theology of the Bible, contexts that may provide you an epistemic position by which you will become enabled to "access" the Christian faith. Of course, I'd be remiss if I failed to say that in the process of all of this, somewhere in there, God Himself will have to play some role in your perception (and even conception) of assurance.
Do you see what I'm getting at? (But, let's not bring in what other religions do or need on a perceptual scale because that is, in essence, is a "red-herring." Don't do that to yourself!)
Peace,
2PhiloVoid
I have reread your earlier post, and if I'm understanding you right, I have to start from a Jewish/Christian context to interpret my or others experiences as to whether or not they are evidence of God.That's a different issue, Mountain_Girl, one that you are bringing into the proposal that I'm suggesting (and one that, if I weren't so willing to accommodate other people's efforts, I might surmise was meant to provide an obstruction to the point I'm trying to suggest).
Sure....Hindus (of various yogas, castes, and stages of life), Buddhists (of either Big Raft or Little Raft belief), Muslims (of 3 or 4 kinds), Pagans (of both ancient and modern Wiccan strains), Shintoists, Taoists (Philosophical, or religious, or popular), along with Judaism's now multiplex of choices, and the many denominational perspectives on the Bible, will all have some peculiar values and a required "understanding of approach" by which to enter into that particular view. But, so what? Whether Christianity is true or not is not dependent on how those other religions view themselves or as to how they mandate their respective praxis in order for an adherent to carry on.
So, regardless of what the OTHER religions require, what I'm suggesting is that in order for you to begin to see Christianity as "true," regardless of the denomination you are in, there are some various contexts both inside and outside of the Bible which will have to be recognized as integral to an understanding of the theology of the Bible, contexts that may provide you an epistemic position by which you will become enabled to "access" the Christian faith. Of course, I'd be remiss if I failed to say that in the process of all of this, somewhere in there, God Himself will have to play some role in your perception (and even conception) of assurance.
Do you see what I'm getting at? (But, let's not bring in what other religions do or need on a perceptual scale because that is, in essence, is a "red-herring." Don't do that to yourself!)
Peace,
2PhiloVoid
I'm sad for you and will include you in my prayers. Faith is a gift. But, God always honors and answers sincere and humble prayers in accordance with His will. God would NEVER say NO to someone who truly desired the gift of faith in Him through His Son Jesus Christ.
In fact, God goes out of His way to give people every chance to believe before he allows their hearts to become permanently hardened. It takes more energy to block out the presence of God than it does to allow Him in once He pursues a person, and pursue a person He will. (Read the non-fiction works of C.S. Lewis and how he came to really know God, for example. Or, read The Hound of Heaven, by Francis Thompson, a remarkable work of poetry, for further explanation).
Would you mind sharing more of your story as to what originally caused you to stop believing in God? Did you experience a severe tragedy in your life that caused you to lose your faith?
You list your faith as "Catholic" and you're participating on a Christian forum, which would lead me to believe you have some modicum of faith. Or, have you felt like you've always been merely mouthing the words of faith without having allowed the Spirit to truly enter you? I'm only guessing here, of course. I would sincerely like to help if I can and if you're interested.
Something I've noticed with a few atheists I've known personally tends to be a rather smug and disdainful attitude towards believers. I'm not saying you have that attitude but I've encountered those who feel more educated, more intelligent, more "scientific," etc., than those whom they misperceive as being less intelligent, i.e., the "typical believer," in their opinion. Which only shows their ignorance as some of the most intelligent, scientific, brilliant and highly educated minds in the history of the world became believers. Those things don't go hand-in-hand with belief, in fact, at times a high intelligence and level of education can be a stumbling block to faith. That's the meaning of Proverbs 3:5: "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding."
If you think you'll find God through your logic or your intelligence or your wit you won't. God honors a sincere and humble person who truly wants to receive His gift of salvation. It does take a sincere humbling of the heart and mind, it's true. Nobody can approach God with a sense of pride and think it will get them anywhere fast.
Well, I've shared a bit, and I was wondering if you had any thought. Perhaps with Christmas time coming, I'm eager to find a way back.
That is somewhat closer, MG, although I'd be tempted to say that what I am more specifically referring to is the fact that the primary "evidences" of the Christian faith, whether seen through Catholic, Orthodox, or various Protestant lenses, will require some familiarity with the literary structures of Jewish, Biblical literature, historiography, and hermeneutical method. Of course, this is not to say that by simply studying these three fields, as they relate to the ancient Jewish mindset of the first few centuries from from B.C. to A.D., you will automatically have "the spiritual lights turn-on" in all their full glory. It would be great if they could, but I don't think this happens for nearly anyone, at least not at a luminosity level we might call "brilliant." However, what studying these hermeneutical patterns can do is give you a partial understanding for how the Jewish mindset, in its more ancient prophetic and its later Rabbinical varieties, lends itself to the thought structures and prophetic patterns we actually find in the Bible, as cryptic as they sometimes are. All of this is something a bit more than what the average Church teaching relates on a refined or extended, Augustinian level (i.e. in looking at say, the Catholic Catechism [link], I'm not finding much that relates to the finer details of exegesis and our understanding of the Bible--more is needed). For instance, until you can see "why" John the Baptist is a fulfillment of the prophecy made in Malachi regarding the "return" of Elijah, a fulfillment that exposes the typological patterns and epistemological motifs that run through the Old Testament, you will continue to come short of evidences ...I have reread your earlier post, and if I'm understanding you right, I have to start from a Jewish/Christian context to interpret my or others experiences as to whether or not they are evidence of God.
Is that closer?
Sure, if we are perhaps born into any of the more Eastern notions of religion, such as Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. But, if we are talking about a person who was born in the more Enlightened areas of Europe and/or North American, then there isn't as many social mores holding one back. For instance, I wasn't born into a particularly religious family, and despite the fact that Carl Sagan and Stan Lee were my childhood "gurus," my social milieu was more or less a non-intellectual one. But all of this didn't stop me from coming to new realizations one day and deciding to expand my academic horizons. It also didn't stop me from picking up a Bible and reading it for the first time when previous to that, I had little notion that such a thing may be useful to consider.I would wonder, though, that if we think that way, it's difficult to change out of the religious culture one was born into.
Well, fortunately, what I'm NOT saying is that you have to drop your Catholic predilections and make way for some "other" denominational viewpoint. That's not what this is about. As for myself, even though I'm not Roman Catholic, I'm very ecumenical and I take what I call the 2,000 Year Approach, meaning that everything in concert with the Christian faith as it has developed and even transmogrified through the centuries...is open for exploration. So, if you live in a "free," Western nation, MG, then you can simply decide to "Explore Your Faith" while remaining within your Roman Catholic tradition, if that makes you feel comfortable.We could go from our faith to no faith, and maybe back again, but not from our faith to a markedly different one.
If that's right, though, and in addition there us only one true religion, then those not born into it are at an incredible disadvantage.
Hi all,
Deadworm threw down the gauntlet suggesting that I make an earnest effort to re-aquire my belief in God. I'm not sure what he has planned but I would very much like to be convinced so I will put myself in his hands for the journey.
I am not sure to what extent this will be an interactive, all participants welcome kind of thread, however of you feel like you have something to add please feel free to respectfully engage!
Peace,
Athée
Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk
Hi Athee. Came into the forum today for the first time in a long time and was wondering what you were discussing and found this. I don't remember asking you this so: How and why were you a Christian?Hi all,
Deadworm threw down the gauntlet suggesting that I make an earnest effort to re-aquire my belief in God. I'm not sure what he has planned but I would very much like to be convinced so I will put myself in his hands for the journey.
I am not sure to what extent this will be an interactive, all participants welcome kind of thread, however of you feel like you have something to add please feel free to respectfully engage!
Peace,
Athée
Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk
Thanks for the thoughtful post. I wanted to touch on the denomination issue and give a bit more background. I was raised Catholic, but in these many years of searching, I did look at other Christian paths, including about a year as an active member of an Assembly of God church, about six months at a Baptist Church, many years in the Episcopalian Church, and I've attended services at Mennonite and Methodist churches and gone to Quaker meetings.Hi Mountain,
That is somewhat closer, MG, although I'd be tempted to say that what I am more specifically referring to is the fact that the primary "evidences" of the Christian faith, whether seen through Catholic, Orthodox, or various Protestant lenses, will require some familiarity with the literary structures of Jewish, Biblical literature, historiography, and hermeneutical method. Of course, this is not to say that by simply studying these three fields, as they relate to the ancient Jewish mindset of the first few centuries from from B.C. to A.D., you will automatically have "the spiritual lights turn-on" in all their full glory. It would be great if they could, but I don't think this happens for nearly anyone, at least not at a luminosity level we might call "brilliant." However, what studying these hermeneutical patterns can do is give you a partial understanding for how the Jewish mindset, in its more ancient prophetic and its later Rabbinical varieties, lends itself to the thought structures and prophetic patterns we actually find in the Bible, as cryptic as they sometimes are. All of this is something a bit more than what the average Church teaching relates on a refined or extended, Augustinian level (i.e. in looking at say, the Catholic Catechism [link], I'm not finding much that relates to the finer details of exegesis and our understanding of the Bible--more is needed). For instance, until you can see "why" John the Baptist is a fulfillment of the prophecy made in Malachi regarding the "return" of Elijah, a fulfillment that exposes the typological patterns and epistemological motifs that run through the Old Testament, you will continue to come short of evidences ...
Sure, if we are perhaps born into any of the more Eastern notions of religion, such as Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. But, if we are talking about a person who was born in the more Enlightened areas of Europe and/or North American, then there isn't as many social mores holding one back. For instance, I wasn't born into a particularly religious family, and despite the fact that Carl Sagan and Stan Lee were my childhood "gurus," my social milieu was more or less a non-intellectual one. But all of this didn't stop me from coming to new realizations one day and deciding to expand my academic horizons. It also didn't stop me from picking up a Bible and reading it for the first time when previous to that, I had little notion that such a thing may be useful to consider.
Well, fortunately, what I'm NOT saying is that you have to drop your Catholic predilections and make way for some "other" denominational viewpoint. That's not what this is about. As for myself, even though I'm not Roman Catholic, I'm very ecumenical and I take what I call the 2,000 Year Approach, meaning that everything in concert with the Christian faith as it has developed and even transmogrified through the centuries...is open for exploration. So, if you live in a "free," Western nation, MG, then you can simply decide to "Explore Your Faith" while remaining within your Roman Catholic tradition, if that makes you feel comfortable.
Anyway, all of this is a suggestion, as I stated earlier, MG It in no way is going to be a comprehensive cure for your doubts, but it can help to some extent. After that, however, it really is God who will have to take you the rest of the way into the eternity that we all hope to share together with our Trinitarian Lord.
Peace,
2PhiloVoid
Thanks for the thoughtful post. I wanted to touch on the denomination issue and give a bit more background. I was raised Catholic, but in these many years of searching, I did look at other Christian paths, including about a year as an active member of an Assembly of God church, about six months at a Baptist Church, many years in the Episcopalian Church, and I've attended services at Mennonite and Methodist churches and gone to Quaker meetings.
I've come back to attending and being active in a Catholic Church for a few reasons. I've got some family cultural connections, my location limits choices and I respect the long history of the Church. I do wonder sometimes, if I should expand my search to non Christian churches.
At this point, although I go to church regularly and pray, I'm not convinced there is a God. So when I say evidence, I don't necessarily mean physical evidence, but anything that would help move thr needle in one way or another. It could be physical evidence, reasoning, personal spiritual experience or even evidence such as noting a markedly different set of behaviors in Christians due to their receiving, say of the Holy Spirit. .a holiness, joy or peace that non Christians don't haveIt sounds like you've done some diverse searching, as I have, MG. And if Catholicism is where you feel you "connect" the best, the I'm glad you are where you are.
But....as to you expanding your search to Non-Christian Churches? In what way do you mean this? Because if you mean by it something like "Jehovah's Witnesses" or "Mormons" then that is very problematic. Don't waste your time. Or, if you look into other the thoughts of the various World Religions, you're not going to find much there either (and I speak as one with a degree in philosophy which includes these topics).
But, if instead you mean that you could expand your search by looking into the beliefs of the Messianic Jews or Jews for Jesus, or even explore the varieties of Judaism and their approaches to the Bible--or something like that--then that in and of itself may be useful.
Besides, what specifically do you feel you are searching for? "Evidence"? Still, just "evidence"?
Personally, I've been around the "spiritual-block" in ways similar to yourself, and I can tell you that if all you are doing is searching for "evidence," you're going to find little to none of that kind of thing, or at least not the kind we are all wishing for. No, what I suggest is that you work on your understanding of the diverse field of hermeneutics, along with epistemology. Of course, it doesn't hurt to still say your personal prayers, asking God for wisdom along the way.
Peace,
2PhiloVoid
At this point, although I go to church regularly and pray, I'm not convinced there is a God. So when I say evidence, I don't necessarily mean physical evidence, but anything that would help move thr needle in one way or another. It could be physical evidence, reasoning, personal spiritual experience or even evidence such as noting a markedly different set of behaviors in Christians due to their receiving, say of the Holy Spirit. .a holiness, joy or peace that non Christians don't have
I mentioned other religions because I've been searching for God inside a Christian paradigm and I'm wondering if I'm too limited in my search for God and should be also giving thought to the idea that there are many gods, or that the universe and god are one.
I did similar things in my 20s, although I learned more about Islam from a colleague in my 30's. My feelings about Islam at that time were that there was so much similar between the two faiths, that it didn't seem worth the upheaval it would cause in my family to switch from Christianity to Islam. I had some good discussions though, and gained a respect for folks like my friend. I did find that at least in real life as I've experienced it, Muslims were more willing to have challenging discussions on issues of faith and the existence of God than the Christians I knew.I did the exact thing when I was a teenager/early 20s, except I also added LDS and Islam. I hope you find what you are looking for Mountain Girl.
I'd like to get to know God, how do I go about meeting Him? I've prayed, but I'm not sure I haven't been talking to myself.God has been giving us His proof of Himself from clear back to when He created man in His image. The account is not based upon the words of one adult but the writings of many prophets...and other events from the Bible.
The Gospel message is Him prophesied... He came...He will be back! Will you be ready to meet Him. Do you listen to Lisa Haven on the net/videos? She made a video with her dad.
He told a story as to a guy and he looked at this beautiful house as they were driving along. They both liked it a lot. So he said that they should just move in. The other guy said that they couldn't because they didn't know the people that live there now. He asked him as to -you like it, right. Let's move in. The guy stated that he could not, as they could not move in with someone that he did not know. Lisa's dad switched to how about moving to heaven and God being someone that you do not know? Should you be able to move in?
Sorry, I don't have sufficient Internet to watch videos, perhaps there's a summary or transcript?When you have a few minutes, I hope you listen to the video added to my last note to you above this post. Be back in a bit after I finish reading the rest of the posts here, so can get a better understanding as to what you are all talking about.
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