How can an atheist have a relationship with God?

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Athée]

Accidents and injuries are broad categories. One
time on an icy highway when was about 18, my Firebird ended up
braced against a sign that kept it from going down a deep ditch. No
charges on me. Several people stopped to help, then called for a tow as
was stuck. The sign broke off and landed on the top part of my car, so
the post and some snow were holding it in place. I was not hurt.

Glad to hear it, accidents can be scary things. Have you ever had a serious injury since you became a Christian?

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Athée]

Told you about the car chasing me up a sidewalk and the warning
God Almighty gave me first to stop walking moments before the
accident. This commotion caused the people living there to come out and
one guy that was behind the other car was telling others that I'd been hit. They and I told him I was okay. He kept insisting he saw me get hit. Kept checking me over and telling people he'd seen the car hit me. It was close and
debris was flying and rocks as the guy from Africa ran into stuff. Once we
found out everyone was fine, then I asked us to all stop and thank God that
no one was injured. A lot of talking and confusion was going on at that tiime, so one guy that had heard my request got everybody to be quiet and it all
came to a hush as I led us all in prayer.

Thank you for sharing your stories Of course I would question your memory of the events as well as your interpretation of them but I respect that for you they are powerful examples of God. I think it is pretty difficult for one person's experience to be so one else's evidence when the claims are of the nature we are discussing here but I appreciate your conviction.

 

[Athée]

That's interesting, Athée, because after I bought and read a couple of Loftus' books, I had the same taste as before. But, then again, maybe I didn't indulge enough of his "outsider's taster's choice test" to end up with a different set of tastebuds.

Hey 2PhiloVoid,

It seems Deadwood is taking an Athee like absence. You mentioned to Once that you would go a different direction with this thread. Feel free to start me on the journey informed by your own position, I always find your take on these matters insightful and suspect that I would really enjoy your leading.
Just a thought

 

[Oncedeceived]

Hey 2PhiloVoid,

It seems Deadwood is taking an Athee like absence. You mentioned to Once that you would go a different direction with this thread. Feel free to start me on the journey informed by your own position, I always find your take on these matters insightful and suspect that I would really enjoy your leading.
Just a thought

Hey just wondering if you missed my question to you? Its a bit back there now.

 

[Athée]

Hey just wondering if you missed my question to you? Its a bit back there now.

Yup sure did, what did you ask?

 

[singpraise]

Thank you for sharing your stories Of course I would question your memory of the events as well as your interpretation of them but I respect that for you they are powerful examples of God. I think it is pretty difficult for one person's experience to be so one else's evidence when the claims are of the nature we are discussing here but I appreciate your conviction.

That is a weird thing to say, even though you didn't say it to me.

How can you question someone else's memories, or interpret them as false, as you are implying? What if someone posted their childbirth story, for instance, would you question their memory or the validity of the memory of giving birth to their firstborn? What you are saying seems so ridiculous.

Questioning the validity of anyone's personal memories or their "interpretation" of their experiences seems rude and unnecessary and makes you come across as insincere in your commenting. This isn't a science experiment or a psychological test. It's a post explaining why we personally believe in God and our experience of Him, as you asked. You essentially are implying someone is lying.

Why would someone lie about something like that? Or are you implying, in your infinite atheistic wisdom, that this person must be delusional, simply because you've never personally experienced this type of power of God?

Look, there is no way to "prove" the existence of God. You asked if an atheist can have a relationship with God. I guess not. And that's ok!

If your life is happier and more peaceful without believing in God, then have at it. My personal life, as well as Vinsight4u's life and many other believers, is better - more peaceful, loving, happy, protected, and prosperous - with God. And that's good enough, for me, anyway.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hey 2PhiloVoid,

It seems Deadwood is taking an Athee like absence. You mentioned to Once that you would go a different direction with this thread. Feel free to start me on the journey informed by your own position, I always find your take on these matters insightful and suspect that I would really enjoy your leading.
Just a thought

Actually, what I was intending to suggest to MountainGirl was that she converse with me if and when she either feels that studying C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity" with Oncedeceived has fallen short of actually being helpful, or that when she and Oncedeceived have finish their study, she can be free to ask me for another contemplative direction.

...I wouldn't mind a discussion where we dissect John Loftus' "Outsider Test" paragraph by paragraph, or page by page. But, it doesn't have to be that specifically. There's a lot of other ideas I have in mind as well ...

And then there's the reading and evaluation of this little jewel of a quote from Loftus' own web page. I just had to roll when I read it...

Quote of the Day On The Value of Philosophy and Definitional Apologetics
By John Loftus at 11/28/2016
Over the last decade I have found that one bastion for Christian apologists has been philosophy, especially the philosophy of religion. The scholars have honed their definitional apologetics in such a fine-tuned manner that when engaging them in this discipline, it’s like trying to catch a greased pig. Or, to switch metaphors, trying to chase them down the rabbit’s hole in an endless and ultimately fruitless quest for definitions. What’s an extraordinary claim? What constitutes evidence? What’s the definition of supernatural? What’s the scientific method? What’s a miracle? What’s a basic belief? What’s a veridical religious experience? What’s evil? They do this just like others have done over questions like, “What is the definition of inappropriate contentography?” And then they gerrymander around the plain simple facts of experience. I would rather deal in concrete examples like a virgin who supposedly had a baby and a man who supposedly was raised from the dead. [From Unapologetic: Why Philosophy of Religion Must End, p.28]Notice the red letter edition? The reason why I prefer to deal in concrete examples is because of how Christian philosophers use definitions to obfuscate their own theology. It isn't because I'm anti-intellectual. Nor do I think definitions are unimportant. I just want truth to prevail.

Cited from : Debunking Christianity
​

My Retort:
What I've noticed from "plain facts of experience" is that if there's one area that Christian's HAVEN'T commandeered, it's most assuredly philosophy (along with science); and what passes for apologetics is usually just bits and pieces ripped from the overall field of philosophy rather than a fully resourced resort to it. Sorry Loftus, I have to disagree with your "Unapology" and your attempt to obfuscate the intents and purposes of fully engaging philosophy at it's deeper levels, levels that Christians are often averse to even digging into. (Some do, of course, but we don't call them Christian Apologists, we call them Christian Philosophers.)

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Oncedeceived]

Yup sure did, what did you ask?

↑

If I found out for certain that the Christian god existed as depicted in the bible I would not be comforted....

While I understand how you being an unbeliever would not be comforted but I was thinking about your mind changing in regard to God; you claim that it was a two year process whereas you came to the conclusion that you were wrong about being a Christian after reading atheist/Christian dialog. What in that process actually brought about this revelation?

 

[Athée]

Actually, what I was intending to suggest to MountainGirl was that she converse with me if and when she either feels that studying C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity" with Oncedeceived has fallen short of actually being helpful, or that when she and Oncedeceived have finish their study, she can be free to ask me for another contemplative direction.

...I wouldn't mind a discussion where we dissect John Loftus' "Outsider Test" paragraph by paragraph, or page by page. But, it doesn't have to be that specifically. There's a lot of other ideas I have in mind as well ...

And then there's the reading and evaluation of this little jewel of a quote from Loftus' own web page. I just had to roll when I read it...

Quote of the Day On The Value of Philosophy and Definitional Apologetics
By John Loftus at 11/28/2016
Over the last decade I have found that one bastion for Christian apologists has been philosophy, especially the philosophy of religion. The scholars have honed their definitional apologetics in such a fine-tuned manner that when engaging them in this discipline, it’s like trying to catch a greased pig. Or, to switch metaphors, trying to chase them down the rabbit’s hole in an endless and ultimately fruitless quest for definitions. What’s an extraordinary claim? What constitutes evidence? What’s the definition of supernatural? What’s the scientific method? What’s a miracle? What’s a basic belief? What’s a veridical religious experience? What’s evil? They do this just like others have done over questions like, “What is the definition of inappropriate contentography?” And then they gerrymander around the plain simple facts of experience. I would rather deal in concrete examples like a virgin who supposedly had a baby and a man who supposedly was raised from the dead. [From Unapologetic: Why Philosophy of Religion Must End, p.28]Notice the red letter edition? The reason why I prefer to deal in concrete examples is because of how Christian philosophers use definitions to obfuscate their own theology. It isn't because I'm anti-intellectual. Nor do I think definitions are unimportant. I just want truth to prevail.

Cited from : Debunking Christianity
​

My Retort:
What I've noticed from "plain facts of experience" is that if there's one area that Christian's HAVEN'T commandeered, it's most assuredly philosophy (along with science); and what passes for apologetics is usually just bits and pieces ripped from the overall field of philosophy rather than a fully resourced resort to it. Sorry Loftus, I have to disagree with your "Unapology" and your attempt to obfuscate the intents and purposes of fully engaging philosophy at it's deeper levels, levels that Christians are often averse to even digging into. (Some do, of course, but we don't call them Christian Apologists, we call them Christian Philosophers.)

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

I'm game for whatever my friend. As for this philosophy question, I take his point here in a general way. It seems to me that if there is a God of the universe interacting with us on a regular basis in ways that are bound by an unchanging nature, which is described for us in the Bible, that it should be trivial to demonstrate the existence of such a being with tangible, unambiguous evidence. Instead what we usually hear are things like the ontological or the teleological or if we have been particularly naughty before Christmas we might get the presuposituonal arguments. Arguments instead of evidence, philosophy instead of math or science etc.
In any event I would be happy to read whatever you like, along with you.
Just let me know.

 

[Athée]

Do you see in Revelation 10 that the mystery of God
finishes with the sounding of the 7th trumpet? Yet, John
will prophesy more. When? How did we get the rest of Revelation?
John ate a little book.

In Revelation 7, who sealed the 144,000?
What else did they do and why?

Asking you these things as received my call to
help people with putting prophecy verses together...at 15.
This calling was confirmed a few weeks later by a lady
missionary, and then several strangers over the years.
My girlfriend nearly fainted trying to take in how a guy
came to us in a parking lot by my car saying that God let him
know to tell me I have a job to do for Him. She goes that she
has never seen or heard anything like this...other than in the Bible.
I told her that she cannot tell anyone what happened and this type of
thing has happened several times so far in my life. That was not the last
time that such a message was brought to me by someone. Started asking
them, what is this job. Was told when the time is right, you will know.

Saved at fifteen...received my calling from God....a lady missionary knew it....at about sixteen is when the first stranger came to me outside with a
message God told to tell me.

I'm not sure exactly what you are getting at but I can sense your passion for what you believe and I admire that.

 

[Athée]

↑


While I understand how you being an unbeliever would not be comforted but I was thinking about your mind changing in regard to God; you claim that it was a two year process whereas you came to the conclusion that you were wrong about being a Christian after reading atheist/Christian dialog. What in that process actually brought about this revelation?

What a great question, sorry I missed it. In essence what happened was that as I read the atheist arguments I began to doubt the need for the God hypothesis. See people fall down in church, slain in the spirit ...watch David Brown an atheist magician and mentalist create the same effect. Posit the Christian God as necessary for a sense of overwhelming peace and a feeling of understanding your place in the universe... Read accounts of that same feeling in other religions and in atheists as well for that matter. And on and on it goes. Eventually there was nothing I could point to that would confirm that the Christian God existed. After I began to realize that, it was a shorter journey into believing that Christianity was it only not well supported by evidence but also had some internal coherence issues (based on my understanding of what Christianity is) and that even if those coherence issues could be salvaged, that the deity represented in the Bible, even if real, was perhaps not one that I would worship as a good.
Don't feel like I said that very well but it is the best I can do for tonight.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[singpraise]

What a great question, sorry I missed it. In essence what happened was that as I read the atheist arguments I began to doubt the need for the God hypothesis. See people fall down in church, slain in the spirit ...watch David Brown an atheist magician and mentalist create the same effect. Posit the Christian God as necessary for a sense of overwhelming peace and a feeling of understanding your place in the universe... Read accounts of that same feeling in other religions and in atheists as well for that matter. And on and on it goes. Eventually there was nothing I could point to that would confirm that the Christian God existed. After I began to realize that, it was a shorter journey into believing that Christianity was it only not well supported by evidence but also had some internal coherence issues (based on my understanding of what Christianity is) and that even if those coherence issues could be salvaged, that the deity represented in the Bible, even if real, was perhaps not one that I would worship as a good.
Don't feel like I said that very well but it is the best I can do for tonight.

No other God died for all of humanity besides Jesus. Christianity is deeply unique among all religions. No other faith has a Savior. Not one. The more you post the more I realize you actually are stating, in a very long and winding way, that you never were a true believer. You can't lose a salvation you've never had. You think of God as an idea or a philosophy. God is a Person. He is the Creator. He is our Savior.

You're blinded. But, as I said, if it floats your boat, so to speak, to be an unbeliever, then have it and I hope you have happiness, peace and protection in your life without God.

Whether you believe in God or not doesn't change the FACT He exists. Your arguments are nonsensical. You cannot even prove that you yourself exist, regardless of "proving" God exists. Every single thing in every single galaxy of the universe is evidence of God. But you have purposely closed your mind and your heart. Your intellect is your stumbling block. You're smart but really not that smart since you have completely missed the one thing that ties everything together - God.

You will know one day He exists, as all atheists and unbelievers will. You will bow before Him, one way or another. And I say that with all kind and caring intentions towards you. I hope a ray of truth filters in through your closed mind. I'm praying for you because I know if God hasn't given up on you He still has a chance to get through to you before it's too late. He has decades still to do so with you, I'm sure.

 

[singpraise]

I'm game for whatever my friend. As for this philosophy question, I take his point here in a general way. It seems to me that if there is a God of the universe interacting with us on a regular basis in ways that are bound by an unchanging nature, which is described for us in the Bible, that it should be trivial to demonstrate the existence of such a being with tangible, unambiguous evidence. Instead what we usually hear are things like the ontological or the teleological or if we have been particularly naughty before Christmas we might get the presuposituonal arguments. Arguments instead of evidence, philosophy instead of math or science etc.
In any event I would be happy to read whatever you like, along with you.
Just let me know.

For some reason I got such a great big ol' laugh out of this post! You're entertaining, to say the least.

Just so you know, God created philosophy, math and science. He's so far above what infinitesimal human minds can comprehend it's staggering. Haven't you ever noticed that one scientific discovery always leads to another? And another? String theory, anyone? Superstring theory? Super, super, duper, uper string theory?

God will never allow mere humans to get to the end of knowledge or science. He reveals what he wants us know, step by step. And then we take credit for being so smart as to have "discovered" whatever is the newest scientific breakthrough.

God is endlessly creative, above all things, for eternity. There is endless evidence of that and if you know one single thing at all about physics or any kind of real science (not philosophy, it's not a true science) you should already have started to grasp that.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I'm game for whatever my friend. As for this philosophy question, I take his point here in a general way. It seems to me that if there is a God of the universe interacting with us on a regular basis in ways that are bound by an unchanging nature, which is described for us in the Bible, that it should be trivial to demonstrate the existence of such a being with tangible, unambiguous evidence. Instead what we usually hear are things like the ontological or the teleological or if we have been particularly naughty before Christmas we might get the presuposituonal arguments. Arguments instead of evidence, philosophy instead of math or science etc.

Wow, Athée. If that last statement is as relevant as you seem to make it out to be, then I basically have no leg left to stand on ... and I won't be able to get anything off the ground. Like...nada! Zilcho! Null set! Game over! Or, am I wrong in the way i've interpreted your meaning, you Mad Hatter you?!

I might humbly suggest that some of the way in which we each understand Christian faith and religion will depend on how we answer the following question: If the Left shoe goes on the Right foot, upon which foot do you place the Left shoe? Or, maybe the truth is, we're just all doing our best to do the "Kohler Monkey Shuffle"!

In any event I would be happy to read whatever you like, along with you.
Just let me know.

For which event would you like me to purchase tickets, Athée? How about "the Loftus Outsider Test Plunge"? Although I've got a couple dozen other ideas we could pursue, I think taking the plunge sounds good, "in any event."

Peace,
2PhiloVoid