How can an atheist have a relationship with God?

[Athée]

Could they "equally" say? No, Athée, I really don't think so (and excuse me while I step on Loftus' big left toe. ) How would those other adherents be epistemically "equal" given the contextual parameters/considerations I mentioned to Mountain Girl?

Sure, we can say that Christian faith has a certain epistemic angle, as do the other religions in each of their own respective ways, but we should refrain from insinuating (from the outside looking in) that all of the religions are really just playing something along the line of the same sort of epistemic game. Given all of the historical, linguistic, cultural, perceptual and conceptual indices involved, we need to be observant of the full contexts into which each religion exists, and has existed, so as to avoid sinking into a quicksand of epistemic equivocation. An orange is not an apple; an apple is not a pear; a pear is not a strawberry--but sure, they are all fruit! And it is understandable that for someone who has a taste for toast (the foundation for butter ), none of the fruit will likely seem to be a satisfying option at the moment.

Christianity is epistemically possible, but only partially so. The human mind can start with the religious texts, experiences, and interaction with other religious minds, but God has to come into the play at some point and lead the interlocuter to the final destination of faith. It's not just brain work, although it can start with that.

Well said. My atheist shirt tails were definitely peeking out from under the sweater of my epistemic reasoning there I want undeniably true, capital T toast, washed down with a complete and satisfying T of knowledge. I find epistemic possibilitea to be weak T indeed but that doesn't make me right and it certainly doesn't make strong robust undiluted T possible.

 

[singpraise]

Hey all, I have been a bit snarky in some of my responses tonight, if one of those was directed at one of your comments I apologize and will try to limit such occurrences moving forward. Scoring snark points can feel good in the moment but doesn't properly respect this subject, this forum, nor your willingness to engage in deep discussion.
Apologies

I haven't found you to be snarky but that's a very nice thing for you to say. You seem to be an intelligent and articulate person who is respectful and I, for one, appreciate it.

What I find the most interesting in your story is you're saying you had in the past given your heart to Christ but became an unbeliever after that fact. That's scary and also sad. I can't imagine once knowing Him how anyone could turn their back on Him. It makes me wonder if you ever truly believed, but only you know that in your heart.

God does exist and you will find that truth one day, one way or another (like everyone will). I hope you find the truth before it's too late for you and your eternal life to be saved. I say that with the utmost compassion and love, because this is a very serious spiritual situation you're in. I pray for you to open your heart again, I really do.

 

[Athée]

I haven't found you to be snarky but that's a very nice thing for you to say. You seem to be an intelligent and articulate person who is respectful and I, for one, appreciate it.

What I find the most interesting in your story is you're saying you had in the past given your heart to Christ but became an unbeliever after that fact. That's scary and also sad. I can't imagine once knowing Him how anyone could turn their back on Him. It makes me wonder if you ever truly believed, but only you know that in your heart.

God does exist and you will find that truth one day, one way or another (like everyone will). I hope you find the truth before it's too late for you and your eternal life to be saved. I say that with the utmost compassion and love, because this is a very serious spiritual situation you're in. I pray for you to open your heart again, I really do.

Much appreciated. I gather you are not of the once saved always saved persuasion. I also understand why it would be so odd to imagine someone knowing that God exists and then changing their mind on that, it would be like denying that my mother is my mother! The problem for me was that all of my experience of God were also explainable by natural explanations as well. This is why I always ask what a believer means when they say they have a personal relationship with the god if the universe. How does that manifest in their life, is there any part of that relationship that couldn't reasonably be explained by natural means. Difficult stuff to be sure.

 

[singpraise]

Much appreciated. I gather you are not of the once saved always saved persuasion. I also understand why it would be so odd to imagine someone knowing that God exists and then changing their mind on that, it would be like denying that my mother is my mother! The problem for me was that all of my experience of God were also explainable by natural explanations as well. This is why I always ask what a believer means when they say they have a personal relationship with the god if the universe. How does that manifest in their life, is there any part of that relationship that couldn't reasonably be explained by natural means. Difficult stuff to be sure.

Actually, I am of the "once saved, always saved" persuasion. Which is why I wonder if you truly were a believer how you no longer could be. You're aware of the Bible verses about this particular thing, I'm sure. If not, I would be glad to share.

How it manifests in my life to have a relationship with the Creator, who is also my Friend and Father? I can't even wrap my mind around Him not existing. I can't imagine my life without believing in God. He's everywhere with me, the most constant constant of my entire life, going back as far as I can remember, really. Even before I came to be born again (as an adult), I still was always aware of His presence, once I had a conscious awareness (as a child) of something spiritual beyond my own power.

It's funny, I actually have TRIED to be an atheist in the past, because I've admired and respected the intelligence and humanity of atheists I've known. And read some things, too, of course. I just can't "not believe." I'd like to point out my belief has absolutely nothing at all to do with any religion or man-made doctrine. I am not a religious person at all.

It's an inner thing for me, personally, more than an outward thing. It's a relationship. And yes, the relationship manifests in my outward life all the time. I don't even know how or why, really. It's hard to explain.

To use your words, my relationship with God is "not reasonably explained by natural means." But also based on the Word of God, which I believe the Bible to be, also for many personal reasons "not reasonably explained by natural means." That is exactly it.

I've had a lot of spiritual, perhaps you could say "supernatural" experiences, but that is not why I believed; I believed first and the experiences came after that. Not all supernatural experiences come from God, of course. Discernment is important, to put it mildly.

Athee, I just thought of how it feels. Have you ever been in love - really, truly, deeply, passionately in love? That is how my relationship with God feels to me, like being in love. Madly in love, I am madly in love with God. Lol. Ok, now you'll really think I'm crazy, but that's as close an explanation I can think of.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

This is a great question (as usual) and I while I have no idea how MG responded I have asked myself this many times. I still don't know. So I tend to just accept whatever the Christians who claim they have a personal relationship with this god tell me I should expect. They would know ...right?

I don't know if they would know. I could only hope they would. But like you, I've heard more than my share of various Christian viewpoints, and I'm confident that some of what I've heard over the years don't quite qualify as being "hermeneutically sound." Trust me, I know...

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Athée]

S: Actually, I am of the "once saved, always saved" persuasion. Which is why I wonder if you truly were a believer how you no longer could be. You're aware of the Bible verses about this particular thing, I'm sure. If not, I would be glad to share.

A: yup I am familiar. I see those verses as a pretty convenient protective mechanism but I understand why you would reference them.


I am going to do some serious editing here to put all of the relevant bits side by side. The question was how is this relationship with God manifested in real life. Your responses were (and again to other readers this is edited of you want to see the items in context please go read S' excellent post in its entirety) and I will put my thoughts in between.




S: How it manifests in my life to have a relationship with the Creator, who is also my Friend and Father? I can't even wrap my mind around Him not existing. He's everywhere with me.

A: what does that mean, that he is everywhere with you? How is he with you, inn what tangible ways?



S: It's an inner thing for me, personally, more than an outward thing. It's a relationship. And yes, the relationship manifests in my outward life all the time. I don't even know how or why, really. It's hard to explain.


A: it manifests all the time but you don't know how or why?

S: To use your words, my relationship with God is "not reasonably explained by natural means." But also based on the Word of God, which I believe the Bible to be, also for many personal reasons "not reasonably explained by natural means." That is exactly it.

A: could you explin briefly why you belive that to be the case?



S: Athee, I just thought of how it feels. Have you ever been in love - really, truly, deeply, passionately in love? That is how my relationship with God feels to me, like being in love. Madly in love, I am madly in love with God. Lol. Ok, now you'll really think I'm crazy, but that's as close an explanation I can think of.

A: Yes I have been and am in love. Been married for 10 years and have a wonderful wife and children. I wonder though if these are really analogous. The people I love passionately are real tangible people. I wonder if what you are describing might more accurately be compared to being passionately committed to an idea (although in your case the idea has a person shaped avatar), it motivates you, it guides you in your thoughts and action, it embolden you, gives you strength, gives you clarity of purpose etc.
What do you think?

 

[Athée]

I don't know if they would know. I could only hope they would. But like you, I've heard more than my share of various Christian viewpoints, and I'm confident that some of what I've heard over the years doesn't quite qualify as being "hermeneutically sound." Trust me, I know...

Have you heard any that sound more sound to your ears?

 

[Athée]

What would you think of two babies healed in the womb?
eyesight healed?
blood test measurements?
warnings of danger?
and more?

I would ask what kind of heing and how we can determine its proximal cause for all the medical ones.
Warnings of danger, how would we distinguish those from the premonitions of danger that animals have or that other humans who don't belive or have relationship with your God also have?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Have you heard any that sound more sound to your ears?

There's been a few. One of them was mine.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Well said. My atheist shirt tails were definitely peeking out from under the sweater of my epistemic reasoning there I want undeniably true, capital T toast, washed down with a complete and satisfying T of knowledge. I find epistemic possibilitea to be weak T indeed but that doesn't make me right and it certainly doesn't make strong robust undiluted T possible.

So tell me, Athée, did your taste for strong, robust, undiluted T come before, or after, you bought that new shirt?

 

[Athée]

There's been a few. One of them was mine.

What was yours?

 

[Athée]

So tell me, Athée, did your taste for strong, robust, undiluted T come before, or after, you bought that new shirt?

Before, but I set tea aside in favour of sugar ladden but emotionally satisfying beverages for several years

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[2PhiloVoid]

What was yours?

Mine is the one given to me by the Cheshire Cat. Of course ... How could I go wrong with that?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Before, but I set tea aside in favour of sugar ladden but emotionally satisfying beverages for several years

That's interesting, Athée, because after I bought and read a couple of Loftus' books, I had the same taste as before. But, then again, maybe I didn't indulge enough of his "outsider's taster's choice test" to end up with a different set of tastebuds.

 

[vinsight4u]

deleted

 

[Athée]

Well, an animal did talk to a man once in the OT. It doesn't say the name of
the animal was said. You can listen to the story of my nephews on the net.
Ultrasounds had been done repeatedly and then all was healed by God.
In another situation blood tests were done several times by different places
over a few weeks. God healed me and the next test showed it. No medicines
were even tried.

Lots of stories have talking animals, does that make them true?

Ultrasounds - what specific condition were present, when did they disappear, are they the kinda of condition that can disappear, how do you know there was no medical intervention, how do you know it was your God who stepped in?

Glad you got healthy, that is a wonderful thing! Was the condition you had one that is impossible to recover from without medical intervention?

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Athée]

Mine is the one given to me by the Cheshire Cat. Of course ... How could I go wrong with that?

How indeed...when one doesn't know where one is going it matters not in which direction one walks!