How Can Abortion Be Biblically Defended?

hedrick · Mar 26, 2019

I don't actually approve of abortion. But there's no reason to think that prohibiting it legally is the best approach. To the extent that we can draw conclusions from comparing different jurisdictions, it appears that widespread availability of contraception, and good sexual education, are the best.

If you agree that later abortions are more dangerous ethically, the last thing you want to do is put lots of restrictions that will tend to delay abortions. Many people don't find it easy to get time off from work to go out of State to a doctor. So one of the reasons for late abortions (though not the only one) is difficulty in arranging access.

usexpat97 · Mar 26, 2019

Exactly what hedrick said. I would go further and say that even if something was prohibited by the Bible, that does not necessarily mean it should be illegal by governmental law. Fornication is the foremost example--you know, that thing that causes fetuses in the first place? Clearly banned by the Bible. Yet I don't hear a whole lot of Christians calling for fornication to become a felony again.

I also don't understand why abortion has to be all-or-nothing, i.e. either it is murder or it has to be not a crime at all. Why can't it be a lesser charge? Even the Old Testament provides support for it to be a lesser charge.

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Mar 26, 2019

SkyWriting said:
Of course I would. When anyone runs for office they check the record of their actions based on the laws in place at that time. The public is not concerned about their personal morality. Only if they follow the law.

If you break the law, people don't want you to represent them.
I think as a Christian voter, you'd do the same. But I don't know about you.

I don't think you understood the question. I did not ask about a politician. I asked if you could vote to end abortion with the exception of medical necessity, would you vote in favor of such a ban? Why or why not? Given that secular legality is your standard of morality. If you could change the secular legality of abortion to fit with a biblical standard of morality, why as a Christian wouldn't you?

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Mar 26, 2019

usexpat97 said:
Exactly what hedrick said. I would go further and say that even if something was prohibited by the Bible, that does not necessarily mean it should be illegal by governmental law. Fornication is the foremost example--you know, that thing that causes fetuses in the first place? Clearly banned by the Bible. Yet I don't hear a whole lot of Christians calling for fornication to become a felony again.

I also don't understand why abortion has to be all-or-nothing, i.e. either it is murder or it has to be not a crime at all. Why can't it be a lesser charge? Even the Old Testament provides support for it to be a lesser charge.

Because fornication doesn't involve the death of an unborn child. I really don't see how that is such a difficult concept?

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Mar 26, 2019

hedrick said:
I don't actually approve of abortion.

That is not the issue in the OP. The question is if you did approve of abortion, how, as a Christian, can you biblically defend it? In essence, this is a social justice issue right on par with slavery abolition and ending Jim Crow. The only difference is that the victims cannot speak for themselves. Animals have more rights than an unborn child. That's the problem.

hedrick · Mar 26, 2019

No Username Found said:
That is not the issue in the OP. The question is if you did approve of abortion, how, as a Christian, can you biblically defend it? In essence, this is a social justice issue right on par with slavery abolition and ending Jim Crow. The only difference is that the victims cannot speak for themselves. Animals have more rights than an unborn child. That's the problem.

I already did give a defense.

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Mar 26, 2019

hedrick said:
I already did give a defense.

If you do not approve of abortion, wouldn't legally banning abortion be the most effective way to preventing abortions and still provide contraceptives and sex education to reduce unplanned pregnancies. I would also argue that informing teens that not having abortion as a legal option of birth control would be a powerful motivator in sex education. I know as a teen, the thought of being a teen baby-daddy made me keep it in my pants.

hedrick · Mar 26, 2019

No Username Found said:
If you do not approve of abortion, wouldn't legally banning abortion be the most effective way to preventing abortions and still provide contraceptives and sex education to reduce unplanned pregnancies. I would also argue that informing teens that not having abortion as a legal option of birth control would be a powerful motivator in sex education. I know as a teen, the thought of being a teen baby-daddy made me keep it in my pants.

I said I didn't like it, not that I thought it was murder or there was grounds to make it illegal. I already gave my justification for that. How Can Abortion Be Biblically Defended? [that's the link to my posting]

As far as we can tell without somewhat ambiguous evidence, prohibiting it actually is not a powerful motivator. I'm not sure why not. People aren't always rational.

FireDragon76 · Mar 26, 2019

No Username Found said:
That is not the issue in the OP. The question is if you did approve of abortion, how, as a Christian, can you biblically defend it? In essence, this is a social justice issue right on par with slavery abolition and ending Jim Crow.

I just don't see it that way. I see some of those opposed to abortion trying to take up that mantle, but there are obvious differences. There are two sides sides of the issue, and the pro-choice side has as at least as much claim to a liberationist perspective.

The only difference is that the victims cannot speak for themselves. Animals have more rights than an unborn child. That's the problem.

I don't think that's a fair perspective on Roe vs. Wade at all.

The idea of animals actually having rights is highly controversial and not widely supported by anyone in particular. The ideology of PETA actually denies that rights exist altogether in an absolute sense, they actually are utilitarians for the most part, which is why they advocate gradualist approaches to animal welfare, only using "animal rights" rhetorically. The Humane Society, USA, is also not wedded to deontological ethics, and their ideology is different from PETA altogether.

In my early 20's I actually was irreligious but idealistic and I believed in the philosophy of Albert Schweitzer and I was a vegetarian, so I have some familiarity with the animal rights or animal welfare movements. I was somewhat inclined towards the pro-life position, actually, but I did not have the same kind of contempt for abortion providers or women who obtain abortions that many Christian opponents of abortion seem to. I thought it was more important to follow the words of Gandhi "Be the change you wish to see in the world". Satyagraha, Gandhi's philosophy, is about recognizing the humanity of people that are opposed to you or with whom you disagree, not about demonization.

usexpat97 · Mar 26, 2019

Because fornication doesn't involve the death of an unborn child. I really don't see how that is such a difficult concept?

Except it does?

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Mar 26, 2019

hedrick said:
I said I didn't like it, not that I thought it was murder or there was grounds to make it illegal. I already gave my justification for that. How Can Abortion Be Biblically Defended? [that's the link to my posting]

As far as we can tell without somewhat ambiguous evidence, prohibiting it actually is not a powerful motivator. I'm not sure why not. People aren't always rational.

Fair enough. Thank you for your response.

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Mar 26, 2019

usexpat97 said:
Except it does?

Well, I guess it does when you think about it. Given the fact that most, but not all, unwanted pregnancies are a result of fornication.

Justified112 · Mar 27, 2019

SkyWriting said:
You might not understand others, but you can't claim you have the only coherent theology. That's a dumb boast.

That's not what I am saying. What I am saying is that being pro-abortion is to support murder. You cannot claim to be a follower of Jesus AND support the murder of innocent babies. Jesus would not support murder since murder goes against the Bible.

Justified112 · Mar 27, 2019

hedrick said:
Sure you can. The Bible doesn't list all actions that are OK. It prohibits some things, and gives principles that allow us to decide other thing for ourselves.

Abortion is murder. It is the wanton act of taking an innocent human life. You cannot follow Jesus but also support and justify murder. The Bible doesn't mention abortion, specifically, but the Bible also doesn't mention spousal abuse, child molestation, child pornography... The Bible doesn't leave it up to us to decide those things for ourselves. What the Bible does is, it provides us with a behavioral paradigm by which we can understand sin in terms of what the Bible doesn't mention. Abortion is murder under that paradigm.

Unfortunately neither of these things applies to abortion. Despite attempts to read things into texts that aren't there, there's no prohibition.

Yes, these things apply directly to abortion because abortion is murder and murder is prohibited.

There's also nothing that really helps us answer the question of when a person begins. Historically many Christians looked at the question as one of when a soul entered the body. But they had no real objective way to judge that. Today we're more inclined to look at fetal development. That's the viewpoint of the Supreme Court (at least in the past), and I think most Americans tend to think that way as well. In some sense it's the modern equivalent of the traditional question about ensoulment.

Yeah, that's just the kind of theological gymnastics people use to justify sin. "We can't really know..." The first step in committing murder is to dehumanize the victim. It's what the Nazis did. It's what Margaret Sanger did. The truth is that we can know and we do know, if we are honest with ourselves. Fetal development does not determine humanity. To be logically consistent with that kind of bizarre thinking, a 10 year old is less human than a teenager and a teenager is less human than a 40 year old. It is really nonsensical logic if we follow it through.

The current "all abortion is murder" is not the historical one.

But it is the correct one. You have to abadon all rational thinking to even question the idea as to whether or not an unborn baby is a human being. We don't apply that logic when protecting unborn members of protected species in the animal kingdom. It is safer to be in the egg of a rare, protected bird than to be a human unborn baby.

I will stick witht the Bible and just say that abortion is murder and that an authentic Christian theology cannot justify it, either biblically or rationally.

SkyWriting · Mar 27, 2019

Justified112 said:
That's not what I am saying. What I am saying is that being pro-abortion is to support murder. You cannot claim to be a follower of Jesus AND support the murder of innocent babies. Jesus would not support murder since murder goes against the Bible.

Jesus would support Christians following scripture:

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

- And if your local government says that abortions are not murder, then they are not.
- If abortions are murder than everyone involved in one should go to prison.

Not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

SkyWriting · Mar 27, 2019

Justified112 said:
I will stick witht the Bible and just say that abortion is murder and that an authentic Christian theology cannot justify it, either biblically or rationally.

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

The governing authorities decide what is murder according to the Bible.

SkyWriting · Mar 27, 2019

No Username Found said:
First, Justified did not claim that he had the "only coherent theology." However, It has been demonstrated on this thread that your theology and any pro-abortion Christian's theology is incoherent. Every scripture that you have cherry picked and stretched out of context in your attempt to justify abortion has been effectively countered with a very specific verse that directly declares your position to be unbiblical. Thus, you are then required to either abandon or dismiss those very specific verses or rationalize a self imposed contradiction. I have yet to see you provide a case in which abortion can be biblically supported. In the end, there is no other conclusion but that it is impossible for a Christian to hold true to the word of God and support the wicked practice of abortion....period. You have even admitted so in this very thread that you hold the secular laws of men over the supreme Word of God. You are in fact a stunning example which proves my statement in the OP to be valid and true.

My "Cherry Picking" involved finding all references to "human institution" and to "Government" and reading what they said about local government. You can do the same thing below.

Feel free to cherry pick the ones that suit you. I urge you to find all passages that call for civil disobedience against "evil" kings, or governments, or authority figures, or evil laws, or any institutions of man of any kind.

What Does the Bible Say About Government?
What Does the Bible Say About Human Institution?

SkyWriting · Mar 27, 2019

No Username Found said:
Sounds more like an emotional response as opposed to answering the question. Why would someone be charged with a double murder for killing a pregnant woman but the pregnant woman isn't committing murder if she decided to have an abortion? Would not a doctor be convicted of murder if he intentionally killed a woman's unborn child against her will? It seems as though the only conclusion from your previous statement is that the only person with the authority to kill an unborn child is the mother.

I hold to my original response. History is chock full of cases where abortions are performed to save the life of the mother or even to improve her health, without her consent. Doctors are allowed to work based on their training and good practices, even if consent is not available.

Justified112 · Mar 27, 2019

SkyWriting said:
Jesus would support Christians following scripture:

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

- And if your local government says that abortions are not murder, then they are not.
- If abortions are murder than everyone involved in one should go to prison.

Not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

No, that's not how that Scripture works. That Scripture is telling us that we should be obedient citizens in all areas that are right and reasonable. That means following the law, paying all due taxes and living peaceably with our neighbors.

That passage does not mean that the government can override the Bible's precepts. In fact, we are not follow the government if the government's orders violate God's commands. If the government told you to hand your children over to the state, or told you that you were required to subject your children to gender-reassignment surgery, you would be right and biblical in defying that order to the Bible. The Bible does not confer sovereign control to the government over our lives.

And yes, since abortion is murder, all those involved should go to prison for it. I totally agree. But our society has decided to disregard God's laws.

Those Christians who support and approve of abortions will stand before the Lord to give an accounting and I would not want to be in their shoes.

Justified112 · Mar 27, 2019

SkyWriting said:
I hold to my original response. History is chock full of cases where abortions are performed to save the life of the mother, without her consent.

That is NOT true.

How Can Abortion Be Biblically Defended?

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