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What do you mean: "There is no power in a physical reproduction of a cross that we can invoke apart from Christ"?Cool. What didn't you like about the 2nd part?
This is good and I will use it in my lesson sometime, but remember the people being addressed are not superstitious, but are claiming Christianity is a superstition.
Superstition in China goes way back before Marxist.
I remember a guy I know who taught in Korea for a short while, and there he remembers an atheist chartered accountant absolutely shocked that he slept at night with his fan on, because the guy was convinced that if you do so you will die.
If Christ had been prophesied and died on a guillotine would people have worn little reproductions of a guillotine around the negs?
I do not see any power even invoked by Christ coming from a physical reproduction of the cross?
What do you mean: "There is no power in a physical reproduction of a cross that we can invoke apart from Christ"?
Superstition in China goes way back before Marxist.
so no clever argumentation will suffice yeah?Come on now, God does that when He gifts them virtually everything.
I do nothing and they do nothing, except wimp out, give up and surrender to their enemy while God is still their enemy. A nonbelieving sinner can for selfish reasons humbly accept God's pure charity.
The Chinese I am dealing with are not buying into the Communist's lies and the same can be said of many Chinese in China now. They don't know about any religions and what you don't know about can be fearful.I fully understand what the Communist party and it's Ideology has done to the Chinese people and their ability to think and believe for themselves.
I am supportive of your efforts in an attempt to make some changes in their understanding of Christianity.
I did not take what Paul said as those people being superstitious either, they as well as these Chinese come from a place of education, learning rather as the collective, rather than the individual.
The individual is a dangerous thing to the Chinese Govt. and the Communist Ideology, which is diametrically opposed to Religion of all types, where they have placed them all into one basket and deemed them all to be just Fables, Superstitions and old wives tails.
They do not view Christianity as a relationship, especially one, with the Creator of all that there is.
They only have an Intellectual understanding of what a God could be if all of the god's in all of the Religions are nothing more than Superstitions, then nothing is really true.
It's been 70 yrs, for this lie to have been worked into the people, that's 4 generations of people how have been lied to from childhood by their parents, to teachers in school to university, Govt, Communist Party.
Remember Hitler said,
"If you tell a big lie long enough and loud enough the people WILL believe it"
So you see it all a lie, that is what your dealing with, that is the battle your fighting, people all over the world do not believe in God as we do for any number of reasons, but these people have been lied to for so long it has become part of the it is who they are what they have become, it's not an individuals belief, it is the peoples understanding because of what they have been told to believe.
OK, when will these students be returning to China?
How long have you had?
How long do you have?
Remember, their questions are coming from a position of doubt, distrust, disbelief, the answers they are seeking are for a deeper intellectual understanding of those superstitions they have been taught about.
The only thing they need to understand is, the Reality of Jesus, The man, He really was real, he really did exist, then it's going from there to the Deity of the Man who was also the Son of God.
Their unbelief isn't hostile to, it is only ignorant of.
Do they have a tower in their mythology?Shortly after Noah stepped off the boat there was "the tower of Babel" just a few centuries after the flood. Lots of superstitions already in play at that time.
Anyway that is why I like using Chinese history and culture to make the argument
YesWell, from what I understand, Chinese culture is generally superstitious. Some gifts (like clocks) and even phrases are considered bad luck. Some numbers and charms are considered good luck. Feng shui is practiced to protect the home and bring in good fortune. Then of course, there is the Chinese zodiac and horoscope reading.
My question is: When they accept Christ, are they being taught to put away these things rather than hold onto it along with Christianity?
I do not see the need to go there.Probably.
You're apparently not aware of church history, the use of icons by Catholics and the Orthodox, or the use of talismans by the superstitious. I was referring to those things.
In the Catholic and Orthodox church there is a theology that grace is "infused" in a person. It becomes part of them, permeates them. Saints, in fact, are believed to have more than they need. It flows out of them. That's where the whole thing of indulgences started (Luther's original protest). The pope - the saint of saints - was believed to have a treasury of grace that he could bestow on others. In other words, he could give away his extra grace to reduce people's time in Purgatory. So, when a saint died, people kept his hair, bones, etc. to hold onto that infused grace. Similarly, it was believed a priest's blessing could bestow grace - house blessings, holy water, etc.
It started to show up in the folklore: crosses to ward off vampires, holy water to scare away evil spirits.
When the Reformation came, people wrote letters to Luther asking him if the new church would still have icons. Even though he wrote against such things, when he died, people broke into his house and cut off pieces of his bed as icons. They were at a loss to know what to do in this new church that wasn't like the old church. Many have lost an understanding of just how radical the Reformation was.
For the most part, the high officials of the RCC didn't really promote the extremes of that behavior, but many lower officials did, and it did stem from RCC doctrine.
Such things are not far from the superstitious use of talismens, which is a belief that the right incantation - the right formula - can infuse an object with powers to protect someone. What makes it harder is that people who don't understand science don't see a real difference between science and magic. One of my complaints about the recent rash of superhero movies is that the superpowers demonstrated in the name of science are more about magic than science. Likewise, people can fail to see a distinction between religion and superstition.
It seems to me you need to understand all this if you're going to address why superstitious people do what they do, what people mean when they accuse Christianity of superstition, and how to distinguish the two. The fact that the history of the church is muddied with superstitious behavior makes it all the harder. Some of their claims may actually be true. In Central America there are many obvious mixings of Christian symbolism with local superstitions ... and the priests have largely given up trying to fight it.
Many Christians speak of the "power of the Cross". Lutherans speak of the "Theology of the Cross." You can't use terms like that around people who are superstitious or who accuse Christians of being superstitious without understanding how such phrases will sound to them.
Realizing where you are where you are heading (which only takes coming to your senses) and trusting (faith) in God's charity is all you need as far as knowledge and than it is up to the person to humbly accept or reject God's charity.so no clever argumentation will suffice yeah?
OK if I can find the time.Hello Bling, about 10 years ago I came across an article called; The Lamb of God hidden in Chinese characters. The authors are Kui Shin Voo and Larry Hovee. Very interesting! I dug a little deeper and researched the Yellow Emperior and the Border Sacrifice. Please check it out it is amazing what El Shaddi will do.
…….okRealizing where you are where you are heading (which only takes coming to your senses) and trusting (faith) in God's charity is all you need as far as knowledge and than it is up to the person to humbly accept or reject God's charity.
I asked in my last thread about Christians being superstitious and got lots of answers about some Christians being superstitious. That was not what I was needing.
I teach open minded highly interested non-Christian Chinese college students, who will most likely return to Communist China, Bible Lessons each week. They along with all their friends and family have been taught: “All religions are just superstitions”, but they are not buying into that, but how can they simply explain to their friends, the difference between a superstition and Christianity. Lots of people in China have crosses and even Bibles, but use them as good luck charms and they are not Christians.
Their friends have not been given logical support showing Christianity is a superstition, but have not heard any support to show Christianity is not a superstition.
What I am looking for is some one-minute thought provoking statement or question my students, who will become Christians, can give to their friend back in China that will open a dialog on Christianity.
I fully agree with the idea of letting the students answer the questions and I try to just answer with a question or give them a verse to check out in context. I also do not like commentaries or books for many reasons. I do not want the class to be dependent on me or some other source other than the Bible since that all they will return with.DBS is your key. what is it? Discovery Bible Study and it is exclusively developed to reveal Christ to unbelievers using nothing but the bible as your source.
DBS is a way to naturally discovery truth from the Bible simply by reading it and asking 4 questions at the end of each study. There is no set reading list and you may develop your own if you think there are better passages that impact Chinese individuals. And another important thing is you don't give the answers.
A developed reading list from Creation to Jesus in 30 passages. at the end up each passage you ask:
again, it's important that you let them answer the question and don't help them answer it. at best only help them stay on track keeping to the information in the passage rather than a myriad of competing thoughts outside the text/bible. It allows a non-intrusive study of the bible but reinforces keeping in context and immediately telling other people about it so it can have massive multiplication growth in it and people are leading others to Christ before they are even believers themselves.
- What does this story tell me about God?
- What does this story tell me about people?
- If this is really God's word, what changes would I have to make in my life?
- Who am I going to tell?
the idea is by the end they receive natural revelation from God in such a strong way that all the other stuff no longer matters because they have truly experienced God. Take for example when Christ asked Peter in Mat 16:15 "who do you say that I am" and Peter replied (v16) "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God" Christ's then told Peter that (v17) "this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven" and that's what we want to happen. we need to stop the "flesh and blood" revelation and allow the divine revelation to happen.
there's a tonne of resources online just search for "Discovery Bible Study" or check out The Discovery Bible Study App for Android and iPhone as an easy to follow reading plan (with an app but there is no mandarin yet)
Then this is the study for you. You can even print out the passage rather than use a bible. What is important is it's done in groups. Either you can coach an individual to lead a group or your can lead it yourself but in a group setting you must be careful not to tell the answers.I fully agree with the idea of letting the students answer the questions and I try to just answer with a question or give them a verse to check out in context. I also do not like commentaries or books for many reasons. I do not want the class to be dependent on me or some other source other than the Bible since that all they will return with.
I do not see the need to go there.
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