How are you saved?

Danthemailman said:

Show me in scripture the multiple examples of infant baptism.

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I guess if God says it twice or three, or four time, he really means it. LOL

concretecamper said:

I guess if God says it twice or three, or four time, he really means it. LOL

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So you have no scripture?

The Liturgist said:

Anglicanism in addition to including general confessions in its liturgy (which is common to the ancient churches), offers auricular confession, with the classically Anglican formula “all may, some should, none must.” Martin Luther was a strong believer in auricular confession and most Lutheran pastors I know offer it by appointment. I don’t know what Lutheran and Anglican views on penances in auricular confession are, but my friends @Paidiske and @MarkRohfrietsch might.

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I was taught to always give a penance. Generally the penance would be aimed at setting right what the person has done wrong, if possible.

Vesper_Jaye✝️ said:

Recently I learned about the Catholic meaning of born again - being baptized. There seems to be verses in the Bible that agree with this. I studied it a little bit more, and - correct me if I’m wrong - it seems like Catholics also think that there are certain sins that you can’t commit or else you don’t go to heaven? I’ve only ever heard that you have to believe in Jesus, and then you are saved, and I never thought that anyone could think differently. Now I understand that people DO think differently, so I was wondering- according to your denomination, what must you do to be saved? What Bible verses back up your viewpoint? I’m specifically asking because I have younger siblings that my parents won’t let get baptized until they act more like Christians. Would they make it into Heaven?

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A chip off of the old block is someone who has the same character or nature as their father, and this is the sense that Jesus is the Son of God in that the Son is the exact expression of God's nature, which he expressed through his actions by living in sinless obedience to God's law, so that is also the sense that we are born again as children of God when we are partaking in the divine nature through following Christ example of obedience to God's law. The fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature, so that is why those who walk in the Spirit in obedience to God's law are children of God (Romans 8:1-17) and why those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not children of God (1 John 3:4-10).

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so living in obedience to God's law is inherently part of the concept of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law. So while we do not earn our salvation by obeying God's law, choosing to live in obedience to it through faith is nevertheless an integral part of our salvation. In Romans 2:13, only doers of the law will be justified, in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter into eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, and in Matthew 7:21-23, only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven and Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so choosing to obey God's law is required for salvation, but not in order to earn it.

The issue is that there can be many reasons for choosing to obey God's law other than trying to earn our salvation, and trying to earn our salvation has always been a fundamental misunderstand of the goal of the law, so verses that speak against doing that should not be mistaken as speaking against our salvation requiring us to choose to obey God's law for some other reason, namely faith. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law, so only those who have faith will uphold God's law by obeying it and will be justified by the same faith, which is why Paul could say that only doers of the law will be justified while also denying that we can earn our justification by our works as a wage (Romans 4:4-5).

The laws that God has specifically chosen to give teach how to testify about his nature. For example, a God who commanded against committing adultery would have a different nature than a God who commanded to commit adultery. So the way that we live expresses what we believe to be true about the nature of who God is, so our good works testify about God's goodness, which is why they bring glory to God (Matthew 5:13-16). So by expressing Christ's nature through our obedience to God's law, we are believing in Christ, which is why there are many verses that connect believing in God with our obedience to Him, such as John 3:36, which equates believing in Jesus with obedience to him. In Romans 10:5-10, if references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to our faith saying that God's law is not too difficult to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, and in regard to what we are agreeing to obey when we confess that Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead, which is the way to be saved.

Vesper_Jaye✝️ said:

Recently I learned about the Catholic meaning of born again - being baptized. There seems to be verses in the Bible that agree with this. I studied it a little bit more, and - correct me if I’m wrong - it seems like Catholics also think that there are certain sins that you can’t commit or else you don’t go to heaven? I’ve only ever heard that you have to believe in Jesus, and then you are saved, and I never thought that anyone could think differently. Now I understand that people DO think differently, so I was wondering- according to your denomination, what must you do to be saved? What Bible verses back up your viewpoint? I’m specifically asking because I have younger siblings that my parents won’t let get baptized until they act more like Christians. Would they make it into Heaven?

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Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Belief alone isn't enough, demons believe, it's trust.

coffee4u said:

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Belief alone isn't enough, demons believe, it's trust.

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Demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" (James 2:19) and in their head that God raised Jesus from the dead, yet the demons do not trust in Jesus Christ. They trust in Satan. In 1 Corinthians 12:3, we read - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit.

There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe/acknowledge that) but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So even though demons believe in the existence and in historical facts about Jesus, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

Michie said:

Colossians 2:11-12

11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ,12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

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In Colossians 2:12, the context shows that baptism is presented as the New Testament counterpart of circumcision in the Old Testament. They are presented in a careful parallel to each other. The one who is "in Christ" is circumcised with a circumcision made "without hands" and the parallel usage of circumcision and baptism demonstrates that we understand the baptism to be made "without hands" also.

Romans 2:28-29 shows clearly that it is not physical circumcision made with hands but spiritual circumcision which makes one truly a Jew and one of Abraham's children.

Since baptism is the New Testament counterpart to circumcision in the Old Testament, we may therefore understand Romans 2:28-29 to have the same meaning in relation to baptism that it has in relation to circumcision: For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not from men but from God.

Physical circumcision was not the means of obtaining salvation in the Old Testament, for Abraham was saved when he believed BEFORE he was circumcised. (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3; 9-10) The same applies to physical water baptism in the New Testament. (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31) So Colossians 2:11-12 does not support infant baptism and there are no scriptural examples of infants receiving water baptism.

It’s important to note that faithful Abraham also obeyed

Genesis 26:5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

The Liturgist said:

In Confession, the priest or pastor does not forgive the sins, but rather pronounces forgiveness and absolution. There are two forms of confession, general confession, where the congregation prays collectively for forgiveness from their sins, and the priest or pastor pronounces absolution over all of them at once, and auricular confession, when someone confesses privately before a priest or pastor. This can be very useful for working out serious spiritual problems.* I have had very good experiences with auricular confession in the Russian Orthodox tradition, in Orthodox Church of America and ROCOR parishes; once, a Serbian-American ROCOR bishop delivered me from a lifelong fear of hearses, and he and a Russian ROCOR priest greatly helped relieve my pain and sorrow in two separate cases of bereavement. On another instance, a Romanian hieromonk with the OCA heard my confession of a terrible personal failing that left me consumed with guilt. When one is finished, the priest pronounces absolution. Roman Catholic priests always assign penances, whereas Orthodox priests tend to give useful advice; none of the priests I mentioned above penanced me.

However, one aspect of the Russian tradition, which sets it apart from the Greek Orthodox tradition, or the Syriac or Coptic Orthodox traditions, is that in the Russian tradition, one is expected to confess at least monthly, and confessing before every liturgy is considered very healtht. In Greek churches, confessions tend to be longer and more formal, and are often made once a year. When Elder Ephraim of Arizona, memory was alive, a large crowd of Greek speakers visited his monastery in Florence, AZ, St. Anthony’s, to go to confession with him, while Elder Paisios, his successor, heard a much smaller number of confessions in English or Greek. He is I suspect busier now. A relative of mine was greatly helped by him. The Catechism of the Syriac Orthodox Church requires one go to confession and have communion at least once a year, but I think Syriac Orthodox priests in one cathedral I visited pronounced absolution without anyone saying anything, and then served Communion.

Anglicanism in addition to including general confessions in its liturgy (which is common to the ancient churches), offers auricular confession, with the classically Anglican formula “all may, some should, none must.” Martin Luther was a strong believer in auricular confession and most Lutheran pastors I know offer it by appointment. I don’t know what Lutheran and Anglican views on penances in auricular confession are, but my friends @Paidiske and @MarkRohfrietsch might.

* Auricular confession is not a substitute for mental health, so if you are struggling with any kind of mental illness or addiction, you should seek assistance. There are Christian psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, relationship therapists and even social workers available to help. And if you are suicidal, please seek immediate assistance.

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Actually our Pastor set's aside designated times; if no one shows, he works on sermons and Bible studies. Penance? Not really, but in counseling the penitent person, advice is often given regarding how to make amends to those a person has wronged.

The Liturgist said:

In Confession, the priest or pastor does not forgive the sins, but rather pronounces forgiveness and absolution.

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Word of Absolution:
God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, Holy Spirit.

It's still pronouncing God's forgiveness; the priest doesn't make the forgiveness happen.

Paidiske said:

It's still pronouncing God's forgiveness; the priest doesn't make the forgiveness happen.

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thank you for your non Catholic opinion regarding a Catholic Sacrament instituted by Christ.

Paidiske said:

It's still pronouncing God's forgiveness; the priest doesn't make the forgiveness happen.

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It was explained to me that the priest operates In persona Christi.

In persona Christi is a Latin phrase meaning "in the person of Christ", an important concept in Roman Catholicism and, in varying degrees, to other Christian traditions, such as Lutheranism and Anglicanism. A priest is In persona Christi, because he acts as Christ and as God.

Michie said:

It was explained to me that the priest operates In persona Christi.

In persona Christi is a Latin phrase meaning "in the person of Christ", an important concept in Roman Catholicism and, in varying degrees, to other Christian traditions, such as Lutheranism and Anglicanism. A priest is In persona Christi, because he acts as Christ and as God.

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correct. A validity ordained Priest can forgive sins

concretecamper said:

correct. A validity ordained Priest can forgive sins

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In persone Christi, yes.

Well, that did not work. LOL; try again...

Paidiske said:

It's still pronouncing God's forgiveness; the priest doesn't make the forgiveness happen.

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Correct.

Michie said:

It was explained to me that the priest operates In persona Christi.

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Correct.

concretecamper said:

Word of Absolution:
God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, Holy Spirit.

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From our Lutheran Rite; note the similarities to the Catholic form quoted above.

Petros2015 said:

True, but someone has to have faith somewhere...
(and it's not the baby's faith obviously)
Otherwise no one brings the baby in to be baptized
And there's no one to baptize it

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Right, baptism is an act of faith-and involves the understanding and continous practice of the church from early on. The faith of the family and community in the case of an infant can be used by God, understanding the corporate aspect of salvation where believers can serve as instruments in bringing others to Him.

Its salvation through the forgiveness of sins.

John the Baptists Father Zechariah
Luke 1
And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High;
for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him,
77 to give his people the knowledge of salvation
through the forgiveness of their sins

Acts 26
Jesus to Paul
I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

There are many faiths in the world who would state Jesus is not needed they could just pray to God to ask for the forgiveness of their sins.

But my Lord would reply, "Its not for you to choose how to forgive sin"

Vesper_Jaye✝️ said:

Recently I learned about the Catholic meaning of born again - being baptized. There seems to be verses in the Bible that agree with this.

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Not just Catholic. This is the traditional Christian understanding. This is what Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, and many others have always believed.

But this needs to be better clarified: Being born again in relation to Baptism doesn't refer to "born again" simply referring to a mechanical act of getting wet. To understand why we believe that there is new birth in the Sacrament of Baptism means understanding how Baptism is understood in the traditional Churches, and how we understand that the Sacraments are works and gifts of God, not human works and ritual. There is new birth in Baptism because in Baptism God regenerates (gives us new birth, makes us new) us by doing the things He said He would do. In essence, through our baptism God have taken hold of us, united us to His Son, and so we have been crucified, buried with, and therefore have been raised up together with Christ to new life. So that we now have our identity in Christ, with our sins forgiven on Christ's account, the Holy Spirit Himself working to make and create and sustain faith in us. Through which God is always working in us and holding us in Himself.

Nobody believes "getting wet" saves anyone. What saves is God Himself at work, graciously at work, giving us His gifts.

It's all about what Christ has done, all that God has done and promised, and what He Himself promises and gives freely to us as pure gift. So that our salvation comes alone from God, as pure grace, apart from ourselves.

So even our new birth from God is itself the work of God, the work of God He has accomplished by giving us new life--through the preaching of the Gospel and in our baptism, and in the Lord's Supper. It's all grace, all the time.

I studied it a little bit more, and - correct me if I’m wrong - it seems like Catholics also think that there are certain sins that you can’t commit or else you don’t go to heaven? I’ve only ever heard that you have to believe in Jesus, and then you are saved, and I never thought that anyone could think differently. Now I understand that people DO think differently, so I was wondering- according to your denomination, what must you do to be saved? What Bible verses back up your viewpoint? I’m specifically asking because I have younger siblings that my parents won’t let get baptized until they act more like Christians. Would they make it into Heaven?

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I'm a Lutheran. The literal crux of Lutheranism is the Doctrine of Justification. Namely that we are freely justified by God's grace alone, through faith alone, on Christ's account alone.

What does that mean? It means that God makes us righteous by giving us the righteousness of Jesus, which we receive freely as a gift of God's grace. We receive this gift through faith, which itself God's work, as we read in Ephesians 2:8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." And all of this is on Christ's account who alone has made satisfaction on our behalf by His perfect life, His atoning death, and His resurrection from the dead.

Through Adam came sin and death to all men; but through Christ has come justification to all men (Romans 5:18). So that we can boldly say that the death Christ suffered He suffered once and for all (Romans 6:10) having died the death of every man (Hebrews 2:9), in this way having destroyed the power of death and the devil (Hebrews 2:14). And so now the Gospel of what God has done has gone out, to be preached to every living creature (Mark 16:15) to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19), so that forgiveness of sins in the name of God's Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, be announced to the whole world (Luke 24:45-48). That through this very Gospel, the very word of God, is the power to save all who believe, for through it the justice of God is given to justify the one who believes (Romans 1:16-17), for this very word of the Gospel is creates faith (Romans 10:17). So that even the faith by which we believe in Jesus and His Gospel is from God, as a gift.

And so through the Means of God's Grace, His Word and His Sacraments (Baptism, the Lord's Supper, Absolution) God is always at work creating faith, feeding us His life-giving word, we are being sustained by the Holy Spirit, are alive by the Spirit to God in Christ, and all the things we read in the Scriptures.

So that though we are sinners, born into sin and held in captivity to death; we are nevertheless the objects of God's salvation--for God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever trusts in Him should not perish but have life everlasting (John 3:16).

I am saved because God saves me through Jesus Christ. In God the Son becoming man in the Incarnation, in His perfect life and perfect obedience, in His death, in His resurrection. I am saved in Christ because of Christ, and God brings me this salvation as gift, as grace, which He appropriates to me through faith. So that through faith I believe in what Christ has done, and this Gospel soothes my conscience as my guilt is wiped away by the blood of the Sinless Lamb of God, Jesus Christ.

I can therefore stand confident in God's grace, not the power of my own works--which are full of sin and death. Not even my act of will in saying "yes" to God merits me anything to God. God doesn't need me to impress Him, He already loves me. We are told He has chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:3-14). Such is His great love for us. As we read, "God demonstrates His love toward us in this way: While we were still sinners Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8) Christ didn't die for righteous men, He didn't even die for good men. Christ died for wicked men, for sinners, for us. All of us. The Lord Himself says, "I did not come to call the righteous, but the wicked to repentance" and "It is not the healthy who need a physician, but the sick".

And it is God's promise that the work He began, He will continue until the Day the Lord returns (Philippians 1:6), as God conforms me to the image of Christ (Romans 8:29). And in these promises I look forward to the day Christ returns, the Day when God will raise the dead and make all things new. For we look forward to the resurrection of the body, the redemption of our bodies (Romans 8:28) as even our mortal bodies are not only restored to life, but given new spiritual life from the Holy Spirit in the future age (Romans 8:11, 1 Corinthians 15:35-58 *

*a word of caution, the English translations "natural body" and "spiritual body" can be easily misunderstood. The Greek here is more literally "soulish body" (soma psuchekon); and while "spiritual body" is accurate (soma pneumatikon) the meaning isn't the difference between our present solid material physical body and some future ghost-like body. Rather the difference is like making a contrast between a motorboat and a sailboat. A motorboat and a sailboat are made of the same "stuff", the difference is that one is powered by a gas motor and the other is powered by the wind. In the same way the distinction here is that our present body is mortal, perishable (it gets sick, grows old, and decays), etc; it is called "soulish" because our body is held in bondage to our disordered sinful appetites and desires. In the resurrection, the body is no less physical--just look at Jesus in His resurrection where He shows His disciples that He still has the wounds from when He was crucified, and invites them to touch and see He has solid flesh and bones. Instead the body is called "spiritual" because in the resurrection, our life is found purely in God, it is the Holy Spirit who quickens--gives life--in the resurrection, see again Romans 8:11 as quoted above.

In the End, after the dead are raised and the Final Judgment, when all is said and done, God will do right by creation and set it all to rights, "a new heavens and a new earth" as we read about in several places, such as Isaiah 65 and Revelation 21.

In this way my salvation means:

1) Christ has saved me.
2) Christ is saving me.
3) Christ will save me.

And my confidence and assurance and hope of that salvation is always found outside of myself, in the external word of God--in the Gospel, in the Sacraments. I can look outside of myself to Jesus, and trust Jesus to carry me through everything, both now, at the hour of my death, and at the Judgment Seat. I have nothing to offer God but my own naked sinfulness. And thus all I have that is of any value I have from God alone.

-CryptoLutheran