How are we to view our moral state?

[truthseeker32]

I have encountered another stumbling block on my way to Orthodoxy. I can't bring myself to believe I am the chief of sinners.

I have no problem believing I am a sinner, and I have no problem with the idea that I should never assume someone else is a worse sinner than I. But if I was to state affirmatively that I am the chief of sinners it would be dishonest because I have no idea whether I really am or not. In fact, I sincerely believe it is highly unlikely, given the number of sinners that have lived.

To be Orthodox, must one believe they are the chief of sinners, or is it enough to recognize merely that I am a sinner, without ranking myself?


I have known evangelical Christians who believe that there remains nothing good about humanity and God essentially has to mask what we really are in order to save us. They see human beings as completely wretched and evil. Does Orthodoxy share this view of humanity, or does Orthodoxy see human beings as at least partially good?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I have encountered another stumbling block on my way to Orthodoxy. I can't bring myself to believe I am the chief of sinners.

I have no problem believing I am a sinner, and I have no problem with the idea that I should never assume someone else is a worse sinner than I. But if I was to state affirmatively that I am the chief of sinners it would be dishonest because I have no idea whether I really am or not. In fact, I sincerely believe it is highly unlikely, given the number of sinners that have lived.

To be Orthodox, must one believe they are the chief of sinners, or is it enough to recognize merely that I am a sinner, without ranking myself?


I have known evangelical Christians who believe that there remains nothing good about humanity and God essentially has to mask what we really are in order to save us. They see human beings as completely wretched and evil. Does Orthodoxy share this view of humanity, or does Orthodoxy see human beings as at least partially good?

Are you referring to the line in the prayer before Communion?

"I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first."

...this is from 1 Timothy 1:15. There is no ranking system of sin in Orthodoxy like the 7 "deadly" sins in the RCC. We ALL sin and need forgiveness. We are ALL in the same boat, in this case, a boat that will save us, even though we do not deserve it. Paul thought of himself as the greatest of sinners and if he can have mercy then we all can.

 

[truthseeker32]

There are several prayers and scriptures I have come across, though I can't think of any off the top of my head.

By ranking I mean worst to best. Am I to see myself as the worst sinner that has ever lived, or is it enough merely to confess that I am a sinner? If the former I don't think I can ever do this. I would always be aware that there is really no way of ever knowing whether I am the worst sinner.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

There are several prayers and scriptures I have come across, though I can't think of any off the top of my head.

By ranking I mean worst to best. Am I to see myself as the worst sinner that has ever lived, or is it enough merely to confess that I am a sinner? If the former I don't think I can ever do this. I would always be aware that there is really no way of ever knowing whether I am the worst sinner.

We are ALL sinners, as I said, ALL in the SAME boat. Whether you are in the front of the boat or the rear, you are still in the same boat. Does it matter if you are the worst or not? No, because you are the same as we all. Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel may apply here

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I believe I'm the chief of sinners. I am holier than thou way too often. I think because I have 'played by the rules' that I'm better than the thug in prison covered in tats with a kid out of wedlock and a drug problem. In reality, I'm prideful, can be arrogant, have my own sins I grapple with privately, find myself anxious or spoiled rotten, can lust and envy, hate and refuse to forgive, gossip, and be a jerk.

We're all sinners. And when we don't think we're the chief, that is evidence paradoxically that we are! We all share the same common Fall as Yeshua points out. We're all fallen, we're all miles from where we should be in Christ, and how often our spirituality is shallow and extrinsic. I look around my parish church during Divine Liturgy and think to myself how much more prayerful, holy, and desiring salvation these people are than me. I can lose focus and go through motions and not have a true heart. I am first/chief. And I think if we live our lives realizing how empty and decayed our souls are without Christ, how full of folly and pride we are, we'll grow in piety. I can only speak for myself when I say I have a million miles to go before I even come close to pleasing Our Lord.

 

[ArmyMatt]

truth we don't rank them like that. when we say that I am the chief of sinners, it's because I only can deal with my sins, so we call ourselves the chief because we don't know the spiritual state of others, which goes back to your first point of why we don't "rank" them.

I have known evangelical Christians who believe that there remains nothing good about humanity and God essentially has to mask what we really are in order to save us. They see human beings as completely wretched and evil. Does Orthodoxy share this view of humanity, or does Orthodoxy see human beings as at least partially good?

Fr Schmemann had a pretty good answer to this. humans are good because they are created by God and He only creates good things. however, humans are also fallen, and must deal with the affects of sin, death, and corruption. however, humans are also redeemed since Christ became incarnate, died, rose, and put human nature on the Throne with His Father.

 

[truthseeker32]

truth we don't rank them like that. when we say that I am the chief of sinners, it's because I only can deal with my sins, so we call ourselves the chief because we don't know the spiritual state of others, which goes back to your first point of why we don't "rank" them.

See, this I can get on board with, but an acquaintance of mine who is a former priest told me that this isn't good enough. He says I must affirm that I am worse than any other sinner. The problem though is that I have no way of knowing who the chief sinner is so making such a statement would be dishonest. At most, all I can ever do is avoid judging others and focus on my own sins.

 

[Dewi Sant]

I understand that the real importance is to be conscious of our own sins and not those of others.


We are not depraved.

1 Peter 2:9
New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, in order that you may proclaim the mighty acts of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

We are the chiefest sinner because it is *our* sins which should concern us.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Amen to that! That is the main reason I just can't stand singing "Amazing Grace!" I was infuriated as a Catholic years ago when they'd have that as the opening hymn. Were they clueless about the meaning behind the "wretch" imagery? ugh...

We are not depraved.

1 Peter 2:9
New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, in order that you may proclaim the mighty acts of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

We are the chiefest sinner because it is *our* sins which should concern us.

 

[RKO]

tell me if I'm wrong, since I'm not EO, but in general, when scripture talks about "Iam the worst sinner," etc, it is really talking about the fact that each of us needs to do our best to see what our sins have done to others and how they offend God.
someone who says "I'm a sinner, but not a bad one, others are far worse" in my mind hasn't looked too deeply within themselves to try to understand what even the slightest sin can do to others.
It seems to me that it's more about becoming more self aware than it is ranking ourselves.
Source- I REALLY AM the worst sinner. (I'm serious. I would leave each of you in the dust.)

 

[ArmyMatt]

See, this I can get on board with, but an acquaintance of mine who is a former priest told me that this isn't good enough. He says I must affirm that I am worse than any other sinner. The problem though is that I have no way of knowing who the chief sinner is so making such a statement would be dishonest. At most, all I can ever do is avoid judging others and focus on my own sins.

well I would just point out that those words are from St Paul. you see yourself as the worst sinner because you should only be looking at yourself and Christ. because this will build your humility. it is not to compare a guy like you and the Pol Pots of the world. just you and Christ, and you see where the sin is. and then the grace and healing starts working. my advice, try to look at this quote like St Paul who said it.

 

[127.0.0.1]

I have no problem believing I am a sinner, and I have no problem with the idea that I should never assume someone else is a worse sinner than I. But if I was to state affirmatively that I am the chief of sinners it would be dishonest because I have no idea whether I really am or not. In fact, I sincerely believe it is highly unlikely, given the number of sinners that have lived.

Don't take it literally. Take it figuratively. Think of it as a mood setter. It's more about the feeling than the fact.

 

[Trying_to_be_Orthodox]

@Topic starter
To be Orthodox, must one believe they are the chief of sinners, or is it enough to recognize merely that I am a sinner, without ranking myself? - for begining without ranking is very ok. "chief of sinner" is maxima, for standart ppl are quiet hard to achieve this spirit level. Imho.
Its very hard to live in order to get maxima's like this one in short time, better to go on way by stable everyday-moment-not big-not small steps.

 

[Barky]

If we think of ourselves as the chief of sinners, then we will be humble before others and before God. I always think of it as a psychological apparatus in order for us to see the truth about judging others, If we think of ourselves as chief of sinners, we will judge no one for anything.

Only God knows "the chief of sinners" objectively, we think of ourselves as the chief of sinners in order to set ourselves in the proper way.

 

[chapdaddy]

It's Paul's confession... was he literally the absolute worst person to have ever lived?

 

[Steinbeck]

I am the chief of sinners because everyone else has an excuse--ignorance, etc. I am a lover of sin, despite that I have known the grace of Christ.

"The goal of this life," St. Nikolai Velimirovic says, "is to love Christ more than sin."