How are we to explain these "miracles?"

Perhaps Jesus needed the miracles to "sell" Christianity. His message is much more important than his miracles. As I haves said before if his message is true not even his resurrection was necessary.

Neogaia777 said:

Either you believe in the miracles (actually happened) or not, in new and OT, with Jesus, or you don't, but if you don't, I don't see how because either you think people made these things up (which is just ridiculous in my opinion) (why, what reason would so, so many, many different witnesses, (especially to the miracles Jesus performed) Are you teeling me "all" these common everyday people all "conspired" together to just "make these things" up, I tell you that line of reasoning is the one that is in the realm of impossibility...

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So I guess the Odyssee happened, too? You know, with the witches who turned people into animals and the various other mystical happenings involving the greek gods? After all, it is an old story, and since when do people make up stories.

Jup, everything that is running in cinemas right now happened 100% like it is shown on the big screen.

You're deflection is noted, by the way, Heiss, and I am now certain that you have nothing more to offer.

Nithavela said:

So I guess the Odyssee happened, too? You know, with the witches who turned people into animals and the various other mystical happenings involving the greek gods? After all, it is an old story, and since when do people make up stories.

Jup, everything that is running in cinemas right now happened 100% like it is shown on the big screen.

You're deflection is noted, by the way, Heiss, and I am now certain that you have nothing more to offer.

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Except the Jews, (for they were all Jewish at that time) Had very strict moral rules against lying and bearing false witness, and DID NOT "make up" stories, just to entertain their children, or for some other reason I guess, nor did they "make up" their own theories about God and then try to sell them to others, they only told stories as divinely instruced by angelic beings or wrote down their literal history, the Jews were not in the habit of embellishing anything, and they were the only ones who recorded the real "truth" about their rulers and their people, all faults and failings included, no (none) of the other societies in history did this, (In other cultures of the day they venerated and glorified their rulers and themselves, and would never speak against their governments (rulers) and or heroes (stars) like the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews did, they and "their" writers told the truth, and felt a deep responsibility to the truth above all else, no one else (no other society of that day) did...

Also, those other tales in the pagan religions you talk about passed their information down orally most of the time and the Hebrews/Isrealites/Jews had theirs written down by prophets and scribes who held themselves accountable to a "One God" a God of truth, and therefore felt a heavy responsibility to that truth, even if it brought shame on their leaders or the people of their nation.

Other societies oral tales became like a rumor or a fisherman's tale of how big the fish was that he caught, becoming more and more elaborate and further and further away from the truth each time, and those other nations who did record their beliefs or history were oftentimes servants to and so in fear of their governments/rulers and men of fame, that if they wrote a tale down they knew they had to do so very favorably and holding, (writing about the people they were writing about) with such high and illustrious, and all to oftentimes very, very embellished, over glorified high esteem, that if they didn't do this, and say they chose to tell the real truth about their leaders and men of fame, then not only would their written record be destroyed and not listened to and not be allowed to be spread to everyone, but that writer would probably be killed on the spot too, but not so with the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews...

And, there are/were many magicians in the world both past and present in those days who through the art of deception, could do some things that seemed like miracles, but were really only slight of hand tricks, that if they could astound the people with, those tales about what they did, would be handed down orally, and as I said embellished, and exemplified, and over-dramatized with each person that would tell them, not so with the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews, and then Christ and Christianity, theirs was real 100% truthful tales about the power of the One true God...

As far as these magicians I'm talking about go, when Moses first approached Pharaoh and his charlitans/magicians, they could reproduce and perform the first three signs that Moses showed them, but none of the rest that followed, these mere magicians got to their positions by and through the art of deception/slight of hand "tricks" by astounding many in Egypt with them, but Moses power that he was bringing upon Egypt was not just mere magic, but the real, true power of the One True God...

Also, I would like to point out to you about magicians who were either astounded or at least knowing that the powerful works being done and displayed by the Apostles was real: (Acts 8:9-13, 8:18-24, 13:6-12)

But if you still do not want to believe even after all of this, then I'm afraid there's nothing else I can do for you other than I will pray for you that your eyes might be opened, see you in later posts,

God Bless!

Seipai said:

Perhaps Jesus needed the miracles to "sell" Christianity. His message is much more important than his miracles. As I haves said before if his message is true not even his resurrection was necessary.

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He did need the miracles, in order for his message to survive and be conveyed and believed in down to our time and throughout time he said "unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe" and "if you do not believe my words (my teaching, not wanting to listen to the knowledge I am trying to convey to you based upon that knowledge alone), then believe on the basis of the miracles (works) I am performing."

Even the Pharisees approached him and said "Teacher, we know that what you are doing and saying is from God, because no one can perform the signs and wonders (miracles) that you are performing, unless he is from God"

Sorry I don't have scriptural references, but I'm working off of memory here...

In Jesus Christ's Holy name, God Bless!

Loudmouth said:

Do you apply the same logic to other religions and historical texts? Do you accept the miracles performed by the Greek and Roman heroes that were aided by their gods? What about the Labors of Hercules aided by the gods Athena and Hermes? Surely you you don't think those were just made up, do you?

The Labors of Hercules

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They could, or might not have been made up, the Bible speaks of the Nephlim, being "men of fame" and power, the answer to that one is "I don't know" but if they were true and Hercules was real, then I believe he was one of the Nephlim, see my post response to Nithavela here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7813272-15/#post65395613

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:

Except the Jews, (for they were all Jewish at that time) Had very strict moral rules against lying and bearing false witness, and DID NOT "make up" stories, just to entertain their children, or for some other reason I guess, nor did they "make up" their own theories about God and then try to sell them to others, they only told stories as divinely instruced by angelic beings or wrote down their literal history, the Jews were not in the habit of embellishing anything, and they were the only ones who recorded the real "truth" about their rulers and their people, all faults and failings included, no (none) of the other societies in history did this, (In other cultures of the day they venerated and glorified their rulers and themselves, and would never speak against their governments (rulers) and or heroes (stars) like the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews did, they and "their" writers told the truth, and felt a deep responsibility to the truth above all else, no one else (no other society of that day) did...

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Oh really? Is that why they did not accept Jesus? Is that why they refused to believe him?

mzungu said:

Oh really? Is that why they did not accept Jesus? Is that why they refused to believe him?

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Everybody of that day "believed" him, at least belived he was someone special, super-natural, the political rulers of the day that he was a holy and righteous prophet, with supernatural powers from God and that he was from God, but the Pharisee's, they were jealous and envious and in fear of losing their positions, and the Pharisee's were divided over the fact that whether or not he was the promised messiah, or the Devil in disguise, they never denied his supernatural power, it's just that the Pharisees questioned it's source, to the Pharisees it was also more like they said "So, what then Jesus, we're just supposed to "hand over" our places and positions over to you, and what kind of order will you start, and what will Rome do to us, if we allow you to due this, and besides that due to our flesh and it's desires, we believe your power is from the Devil...

But none, "none" of that day denied his power or that he was someone special, the political leaders were afraid to judge him, that's why they first passed him around and then ultimately decided to bring him out before the Jewish crowds and offered the Jewish crowd a choice, and Pilate was thinking they wouldn't command a convicted murderer to be released over him (Jesus) but they did, at the instigation of the Jewish Pharisees, That's when Pilate washed his hands before the crowd, to basically say: "this man's blood be upon your hands, oh Jews, not mine"

And so the story goes...

God Bless!

Mr Strawberry said:

You've seen the events you describe have you?

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If possible, I imagine a great deal of medical treatment was involved. That is miraculous.

God can do anything:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDiM4RVC_jA#t=74

Neogaia777 said:

Everybody of that day "believed" him, at least belived he was someone special, super-natural, the political rulers of the day that he was a holy and righteous prophet, with supernatural powers from God and that he was from God, but the Pharisee's, they were jealous and envious and in fear of losing their positions, and the Pharisee's were divided over the fact that whether or not he was the promised messiah, or the Devil in disguise, they never denied his supernatural power, it's just that the Pharisees questioned it's source, to the Pharisees it was also more like they said "So, what then Jesus, we're just supposed to "hand over" our places and positions over to you, and what kind of order will you start, and what will Rome do to us, if we allow you to due this, and besides that due to our flesh and it's desires, we believe your power is from the Devil...

But none, "none" of that day denied his power or that he was someone special, the political leaders were afraid to judge him, that's why they first passed him around and then ultimately decided to bring him out before the Jewish crowds and offered the Jewish crowd a choice, and Pilate was thinking they wouldn't command a convicted murderer to be released over him (Jesus) but they did, at the instigation of the Jewish Pharisees, That's when Pilate washed his hands before the crowd, to basically say: "this man's blood be upon your hands, oh Jews, not mine"

And so the story goes...

God Bless!

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Is that why they remained in their Judaic religion and refuse to accept Jesus as a messiah? You can spin it anyway you want but the truth of the matter is that people in Biblical times were superstitious and believed in all manner of the supernatural. A book written in the bronze age cannot be taken literally when it conflicts with science and that is all there is to it!

Loudmouth said:

Why are you blind to the Leprechaun realm?

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You sought miracles before out of need but came up with zero. Now all you possess is unbelief and find God given miracles to be comparable to imaginary Leprechauns.

You have never seen a child's deformed arm become whole and normal spontaneously before your eyes. I have witnessed the Heavens Rule over the natural. When it happened I knew of people like you, and what they think about Him on High. You do not know Him.

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Loudmouth said:

Do you apply the same logic to other religions and historical texts? Do you accept the miracles performed by the Greek and Roman heroes that were aided by their gods? What about the Labors of Hercules aided by the gods Athena and Hermes? Surely you you don't think those were just made up, do you?

The Labors of Hercules

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You are acting as an expert in this domain. Who you are replying to gave an excellent post. Your ignorance cannot discount what he presented about God given miracles. You equate the real with myths, since you do not know better.

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Heissonear said:

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You sought miracles before out of need but came up with zero. Now all you possess is unbelief and find God given miracles to be comparable to imaginary Leprechauns.

You have never seen a child's deformed arm become whole and normal spontaneously before your eyes. I have witnessed the Heavens Rule over the natural. When it happened I knew of people like you, and what they think about Him on High. You do not know Him.

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Let's play ball here for a second.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that you indeed saw some child's deformed arm "become whole again".

How did you conclude that it was YOUR god that was responsible and not some other god like Allah, Shiva, Thor, or any of the hundreds, thousands of others?

Because, as you may well know, I can go to YouTube and watch hundreds of clips of "miracles" or anecdotes of miracles where they are attributed to Allah, Shiva etc etc.

What I immediatly notice however, is that the god it is attributed to ALWAYS happens to be the god these people already believed in.

Not once have I seen a muslim witness a "miracle" and attribute it to Jawhe and change religion. Not once have I seen a christian witness a "miracle" and attribute it to Shiva and become a hindu. Etc.

So, here are some questions I would love for you to answer:

- how do you view these "miracles" from rivaling religions?
- why is it, in YOUR opinion, that muslims attribute such things to Allah, Christians to Jawhe and hindu's to one of the Hindu gods?
- taking a step back from your own religious beliefs and looking at the total sum of such anecdotes, considering that they are almost universally attributed to the god those people already believed in, what do you think is the most logical conclusion concerning these anecdotes?

JustMeSee said:

God can do anything:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDiM4RVC_jA#t=74

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This doesn't prove anything at all.

DogmaHunter said:

Let's play ball here for a second.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that you indeed saw some child's deformed arm "become whole again".

How did you conclude that it was YOUR god that was responsible and not some other god like Allah, Shiva, Thor, or any of the hundreds, thousands of others?

Because, as you may well know, I can go to YouTube and watch hundreds of clips of "miracles" or anecdotes of miracles where they are attributed to Allah, Shiva etc etc.

What I immediatly notice however, is that the god it is attributed to ALWAYS happens to be the god these people already believed in.

Not once have I seen a muslim witness a "miracle" and attribute it to Jawhe and change religion. Not once have I seen a christian witness a "miracle" and attribute it to Shiva and become a hindu. Etc.

So, here are some questions I would love for you to answer:

- how do you view these "miracles" from rivaling religions?
- why is it, in YOUR opinion, that muslims attribute such things to Allah, Christians to Jawhe and hindu's to one of the Hindu gods?
- taking a step back from your own religious beliefs and looking at the total sum of such anecdotes, considering that they are almost universally attributed to the god those people already believed in, what do you think is the most logical conclusion concerning these anecdotes?

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Sorry, chap, I answered your "questions" in an earlier post and you skated them.

What you present is "confusion" mixed with "error".

You want the confusion you are in cleared up and the error exposed. Humm, let's see, sounds like you need items God brings to unbelievers, yet you have approached a mere man.

Yes, I witnessed a feeble mother bring her young child in her arms to seek help for his deformity. And I witnessed firsthand the childs stunted and deformed arm spontaneously "lengthen and become normal". It was a clear display of the Heavens Ruling over the natural realm. Think about what supernaturally had to occur before me. Think of the thousands upon thousands of details and materials involved in the "change" the childs arm experienced. Then you tell me to prove its source. In addition, then say watch youtube. You do not know Jesus, nor His Power.

I am a witness of Power above the natural. I guess that has been one of the elements Jesus has used to turn a godless Naturalist like me, to walk with Him.

Of the "confusion" and "groups" you inject and associate, He, Jesus, has brought me through it, not around it. Now it's your turn. I wish you the best. What you need to go through is worth it. His Kingdom does not consist of mere words but of Power, Heavenly Power (I Corinthians 4:20).

May God Bless your days ahead!

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Heissonear said:

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Sorry, chap, I answered your "questions" in an earlier post and you skated them.

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I have not once asked you these questions.
Or anyone else for that matter.

What you present is "confusion" mixed with "error".

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I disagree. I think they are legit questions.

Christians attribute it to Jawhe.
Muslims attribute it to Allah
Hindu's attribute it one of the Hindu gods.

I have never seen a Christian come to the conclusion that that which they consider to be miraculous, is the handy work of Shiva and then become Hindu.

I feel it's a very legit series of questions.

How do you explain the pattern that such things are always attributed to the gods the people in question already believed in?

And what does it say about the methodology used to conclude that a certain thing is the work of some specific deity?

Yes, I witnessed a feeble mother bring her young child in her arms to seek help for his deformity. And I witnessed firsthand the childs stunted and deformed arm spontaneously "lengthen and become normal". It was a clear display of the Heavens Ruling over the natural realm. Think about what supernaturally had to occur before me. Think of the thousands upon thousands of details and materials involved in the "change" the childs arm experienced. Then you tell me to prove its source. In addition, then say watch youtube. You do not know Jesus, nor His Power.

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I'm not asking you about what you think you saw. i'm asking you why you attribute it to jesus, while a muslim attributes it to Allah and a hindu attributes it to one of the hindu gods?

And what does that say about the methodology used to identify "miracles" and the cause thereof?

Of the "confusion" and "groups" you inject and associate, He, Jesus, has brought me through it, not around it.

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Muslims and hindu's would say the same thing, only instead of useing the word "jesus", they would use "allah" or the name of a hindu god.

Why?

Why aren't hindu's, who witness miracles, conclude that it's jesus' handy work while converting to christianity in droves?
Why aren't muslims, who witness miracles, conclude that it's jesus' handy work while converting to christianity in droves?

Why do theists who witness miracles, ALWAYS attribute it to the gods they already believe in? What does it say about the methodology used? What does it say about the "miracles" themselves?

And, perhaps more importantly, why do you try to dodge this topic?

Heissonear said:

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You have never seen a child's deformed arm become whole and normal spontaneously before your eyes. I have witnessed the Heavens Rule over the natural. When it happened I knew of people like you, and what they think about Him on High. You do not know Him.

.

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Source?

Heissonear said:

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You equate the real with myths, since you do not know better.

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You equate the myths with the real, since you do not know better.

Neogaia777 said:

They could, or might not have been made up, the Bible speaks of the Nephlim, being "men of fame" and power, the answer to that one is "I don't know" but if they were true and Hercules was real, then I believe he was one of the Nephlim, see my post response to Nithavela here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7813272-15/#post65395613

God Bless!

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They could have made it up? I thought you said it was impossible to make this stuff up.

DogmaHunter said:

I have not once asked you these questions.
Or anyone else for that matter.

I disagree. I think they are legit questions.

Christians attribute it to Jawhe.
Muslims attribute it to Allah
Hindu's attribute it one of the Hindu gods.

I have never seen a Christian come to the conclusion that that which they consider to be miraculous, is the handy work of Shiva and then become Hindu.

I feel it's a very legit series of questions.

How do you explain the pattern that such things are always attributed to the gods the people in question already believed in?

And what does it say about the methodology used to conclude that a certain thing is the work of some specific deity?

I'm not asking you about what you think you saw. i'm asking you why you attribute it to jesus, while a muslim attributes it to Allah and a hindu attributes it to one of the hindu gods?

And what does that say about the methodology used to identify "miracles" and the cause thereof?

Muslims and hindu's would say the same thing, only instead of useing the word "jesus", they would use "allah" or the name of a hindu god.

Why?

Why aren't hindu's, who witness miracles, conclude that it's jesus' handy work while converting to christianity in droves?
Why aren't muslims, who witness miracles, conclude that it's jesus' handy work while converting to christianity in droves?

Why do theists who witness miracles, ALWAYS attribute it to the gods they already believe in? What does it say about the methodology used? What does it say about the "miracles" themselves?

And, perhaps more importantly, why do you try to dodge this topic?

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The issue you present is something I have already faced before meeting Jesus. I faced this issue yet again with "divided Christianity" - faced with all the denominations that have come about, and doctrines thereof. Now it's your turn to face the "which is right" issue. May God Bless!

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