How are we to explain these "miracles?"

Heissonear said:

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You forget to look at the most important parameter! The Work of the Holy Spirit!

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In other words, you make an assumption in order to explain why your story doesn't fit the facts of reality.

AV1611VET said:

I don't really know, Quatona.

Thaumaturgy isn't one of my fields of expertise.

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My question (for the best method for finding out the natural laws) didn´t even touch thaumaturgy.

quatona said:

My question (for the best method for finding out the natural laws) didn´t even touch thaumaturgy.

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The study of miracles is not one of my fields of expertise.

I'm not sure how I can answer your questions.

Some miracles can't be distinguished from a natural occurrence.

Say you're observing a car driving down the highway from a helicopter.

The driver falls asleep, and the car starts to veer to the right, off the road.

Let's say, for the sake of this exercise, that God sends an [invisible] angel to protect the driver.

The angel straightens the car out.

From the helicopter, it would simply look like the driver righted the car; when, in fact, it was an angel that did it.

AV1611VET said:

The study of miracles is not one of my fields of expertise.

I'm not sure how I can answer your questions.

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Again: I didn´t ask a question about miracles. I asked what is the best method to find out about natural laws. I guess we both know why you don´t want to answer this question.

Some miracles can't be distinguished from a natural occurrence.


Say you're observing a car driving down the highway from a helicopter.

The driver falls asleep, and the car starts to veer to the right, off the road.

Let's say, for the sake of this exercise, that God sends an [invisible] angel to protect the driver.

The angel straightens the car out.

From the helicopter, it would simply look like the driver righted the car; when, in fact, it was an angel that did it.

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Well, no natural laws were violated in this story, to begin with. So you may want to work on your definition.

Heissonear said:

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You forget to look at the most important parameter! The Work of the Holy Spirit!

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How can we look at it when only special people such as yourself can see it?

quatona said:

Again: I didn´t ask a question about miracles. I asked what is the best method to find out about natural laws. I guess we both know why you don´t want to answer this question.

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How should I know what the best method is?

Direct observation?

Want to find out about gravity? jump off a cliff.

Want to find out about climatology? go stand under a cumulonimbus incus with a metal rod and recite the alphabet backward.

Dunnorightoffhand.

AV1611VET said:

Did you notice the second quote is a reply to one of your posts?

Here it is:

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You have kind of a lot of posts. For example:

AV1611VET said:

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Now, you quoted me there. You quoted one post in its entirety. Would it be reasonable to say you "forgot" to quote some other post of mine too? I'd say no, but if you think you need to, i'm thinking of a post in that exchange that I want you to include. You can read my mind and figure out which.

TLK Valentine said:

I've witnessed David Copperfield make the Statue of Liberty disappear; I've witnessed psychic surgeons remove cancerous growths without cutting into the skin; I've witnessed men pass through walls, levitate into the air, and walk on water.

The difference? I know when I'm being tricked, even if I don't immediately know how...

I know how they do happen -- a baby's arm is a new twist on an old carnival trick -- they usually do legs: the shoe on one foot is pulled slightly off and forward while the leg is pulled forward to give an illusion that a shorter leg has suddenly grown longer. From a forward camera angle this slight of hand trick looks pretty impressive.

You want to deny that you've been had, that's fine -- smarter men than you have been taken.

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As mentioned earlier, you made false assumptions. You state that I was deceived by man, that I had been tricked, that the Miracle never happened.

Your wisdom in knowing with certainty what happened produce error. What you state above is untrue.

The women had friends who knew and spent time with her, and the friend knew of her childs deformity. Circumstances came about when her friends asked her if she wanted to go to a church gathering and have someone pray that the child's arm be healed. When the women came to the meeting that was what she was there for.

Naturalism evaporated from my life when He Baptized me by His Spirit, long before outward Miracles came my way. It looks like Naturalism is still you fallback foundation, and has allowed you to continue to walk and talk in error, and more importantly, still resist being drawn to Him. You act like He does not exist.

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Did the kid's arm magically heal, or did a doctor fix it?

Heissonear said:

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As mentioned earlier, you made false assumptions. You state that I was deceived by man, that I had been tricked, that the Miracle never happened.

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And you're implying that you're incapable of being deceived or tricked, therefore a miracle happened.

Your wisdom in knowing with certainty what happened produce error. What you state above is untrue.

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Given the choice between my own wisdom and yours, I will stick with mine. I fall for a lot fewer false miracles that way.

The women had friends who knew and spent time with her, and the friend knew of her childs deformity. Circumstances came about when her friends asked her if she wanted to go to a church gathering and have someone pray that the child's arm be healed. When the women came to the meeting that was what she was there for.

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And let me guess -- this meeting was the first time you had ever met the woman or her child?

I'm right, aren't I?

Here one tale of my book of stories of how I came to faith (began believing)...

One night, I was deeply troubled with many issues, I was trying to get to sleep, but I felt like I was wrestling with many things, I was tossing and turning, well some time passed, and my upstairs bedroom door was open, well, it closed, and I didn't think anything about that at first, because my roommate stays up late and sleeps downstairs, and sometimes when I have my upstairs door open, when he opens up the bottom downstairs front door (to go outside to smoke a cigarette usually) the change in pressure makes my upstairs door shut (get back to that in a minute)...

So my door shut and a few minutes later something very odd happened, I was laying on my side facing the wall, holding, almost clinching my covers that I had rolled up into a ball, anyways I felt someone sit, (and I felt the depression in my bed), next to my back, and I felt the most gentle brushing of my head and hair, and I kinda jumped a little bit at first, but feeling the very, very gentle touch right after I jumped a little bit, immediately began to sooth me, and gradually as it kept doing this (and I could still feel the impression of someone sitting on my bed next to my back with me) anyways as it kept doing this I began to feel the greatest comfort and ease that in about ten minutes (I'm guessing because I don't exactly know) but it's like all that was troubling me left and I felt such great, great, comfort and ease that I very shortly there-afterwards fell asleep...

I remembered it when I woke up the next morning, and (this is the part I said I'd get back to) I remembered the presence of a person sitting on my bed and soothing me to sleep, but I then, also remembered the door... You see, every single time my roommate goes outside to smoke I always, and I mean always hear the downstairs door close, cause he always slams it shut, without thinking twice about my sleep, but, getting to the point, I don't remember hearing the downstairs door shut, and I don't even think my roommate went outside, so who closed the door and then sat next to me on my bed and comforted and soothed me to sleep that night?

Miracle? Yes?, No? Supernatural, I would say, and that's not my only story, I've got hundreds more like it, some even more spectacular than that one...

Just thought I'd share,

God Bless!

Heissonear said:

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You act like He does not exist.

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And you act like the undetectable 7-headed dragon in my garage doesn't exist. But both I and the dragon know that you are delusional.

DogmaHunter said:

And you act like the undetectable 7-headed dragon in my garage doesn't exist. But both I and the dragon know that you are delusional.

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Naturalists have to imagine, I do not in what I say: you act like He does not exist, even Jesus who is Lord on High.

I was once a true blue Naturalist. I understand the empty domain about a stated Spiritual World and God. I had no apprehension or truth to base any of it to exist.

But I sought if He existed, sincerely and truthfully, unbias. He reveals Himself to those who seek Him who made all things visible and invisible. His Word even teaches the Work of His Spirit since Genesis 1, working in man in Genesis 6:3, and being born again in spirit by the Holy Spirit in John 3:3,7.

And you would rather say a seven headed monster exist as we state Jesus on high lives. You need to unclog you ears and open your heart. A fellow Naturalist is giving you needful advise.

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Heissonear said:

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Naturalists have to imagine, I do not in what I say: you act like He does not exist, even Jesus who is Lord on High.

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The imagining is done on the part of the one claiming the existence of a thing without having any rational evidence to support it. Which is you claiming the existence of your deity of choice.

Or me, in the case of my 7-headed dragon.

ps: why do you call me a "naturalist"? I have no defined myself as such, nore have I said anything that warrants you labeling me like that.

But I sought if He existed, sincerely and truthfully, unbias. He reveals Himself to those who seek Him who made all things visible and invisible. His Word even teaches the Work of His Spirit since Genesis 1, working in man in Genesis 6:3, and being born again in spirit by the Holy Spirit in John 3:3,7.

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Muslims tell me the exact same thing, only they speak about a different god.

These are not things you (or muslims) KNOW. These are things you BELIEVE. If you can't show it, you do not know it.

And you would rather say a seven headed monster exist as we state Jesus on high lives.

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I'm just saying... if you are allowed to make unsupported claims and pretend them to be true, then I should be allowed the same privilege.

You need to unclog you ears and open your heart

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My ears are fine and my heart pumps blood.

A fellow Naturalist is giving you needful advise.

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I'm not a "naturalist". At least, not in the sense that you are using the word.

Heissonear said:

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As mentioned earlier, you made false assumptions. You state that I was deceived by man, that I had been tricked, that the Miracle never happened.

Your wisdom in knowing with certainty what happened produce error. What you state above is untrue.

The women had friends who knew and spent time with her, and the friend knew of her childs deformity. Circumstances came about when her friends asked her if she wanted to go to a church gathering and have someone pray that the child's arm be healed. When the women came to the meeting that was what she was there for.

Naturalism evaporated from my life when He Baptized me by His Spirit, long before outward Miracles came my way. It looks like Naturalism is still you fallback foundation, and has allowed you to continue to walk and talk in error, and more importantly, still resist being drawn to Him. You act like He does not exist.

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Actually, what everyone is saying is that we can't rule out trickery. Limb lengthening is a pretty common miracle hoax.

[serious];65800260 said:

Actually, what everyone is saying is that we can't rule out trickery. Limb lengthening is a pretty common miracle hoax.

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Indeed, any two-bit con artist can do it.

many of them count on the mark's willingness to believe, or their pride in refusing to accept that they've been duped.

In the case of religious cons, the perpetrators can find both in abundance.

TLK Valentine said:

Indeed, any two-bit con artist can do it.

many of them count on the mark's willingness to believe, or their pride in refusing to accept that they've been duped.

In the case of religious cons, the perpetrators can find both in abundance.

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Once people like you get to see Him on High, even His Glorious Radiance, the little time talk of the lowly is beggarly.

Some still need the real to help their perspective of the unreal. What is emphasized will dramatically change!

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Heissonear said:

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Once people like you get to see Him on High, even His Glorious Radiance, the little time talk of the lowly is beggarly.

Some still need the real to help their perspective of the unreal. What is emphasized will dramatically change!

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I noticed you keep avoiding the question I asked earlier -- twice.

Prior to this "miracle," had you ever met the mother or the baby with the deformed arm?

I'll bet my blessings you hadn't.

TLK Valentine said:

I noticed you keep avoiding the question I asked earlier -- twice.

Prior to this "miracle," had you ever met the mother or the baby with the deformed arm?

I'll bet my blessings you hadn't.

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I never met the woman and child before the event.

Discerning a Spiritual Event is impossible for naturalistic people, all they have are thoughts and mentally derived conclusions, like you are accumulating.

But the Spiritual Anointing from Him, as the Bible clearly states, teaches them about all things, even truth.

I John 2:20,27
"You have an Anointing from the Holy One. .... The Anointing which you received. ... teaches you about all things"

I witnessed a Miracle. You think I was deceived by men.

Who knows the truth about this Miracle? Were you there?

You promote Naturalism, and think all things happen and can be explained through natural processes. You also promote thoughts and human opinions, even about what something you do not have details of. Nor His Anointing to present truth as He leads and teaches.

You also know that your foundation of Naturalism is proven to be error by just one Miracle, where Power from on High Rules over the Natural.

If I was you I would see your dilemma and turn to Him. You keep acting like He does not exist and others do not know Him.


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