How are we to explain these "miracles?"

PsychoSarah said:

And yet you consistently refuse to support your claims, and have even admitted you don't have evidence you can show us, so why don't you drop this altogether considering you aren't going to convince anyone this way?

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Natural man's claims are based on the outer, my claims are from what He also put within the inner; man witnesses dust, followers of Him also witness the Realm and Power above the natural.

Many think their five senses are vital to what to believe. To date, they cannot comprehend the content of what Steve posted above.

Some are slow to learn His ways, and the Kingdom of God in our midst. They do not see what He is doing above the natural and even to the natural all the time. They act like He is not around, nor anywhere to be found.

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KWCrazy said:

On the night of March 1, 1950, all 15 members of the West End Baptist Church choir were delayed for various reasons as they readied to leave for practice. Before practice the pastor, turned on the heat to warm the church and departed. Instead, it filled with gas and exploded. Not a single choir member was harmed in the explosion.

As unbelievable as this story is, it did happen. Even though a Nebraska church exploded one evening in 1950 just five minutes after choir practice had been scheduled to begin, not one of the fifteen people who should have been present was injured because none had yet arrived when the building collapsed:
Choir practice at the West Side Baptist Church in Beatrice, Nebraska, always began at 7:20 on Wednesday evening. At 7:25 p.m. on Wednesday, March 1, 1950, an explosion demolished the church. The blast forced a nearby radio station off the air and shattered windows in surrounding homes.

But every one of the choir's fifteen members escaped injury, saved by a fortuitous coincidence: All were late for practice that night. Considering the sanctified site of the explosion, it was not surprising that some attributed the near miss to divine intervention.
source = Snopes.com
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I just read the original post and my first reaction to this was not "miracle!" but to look into the claims.

Two of the members were late because their cars would not start. The weather on March 1st 1950 was around freezing and cars not starting when it is very cold is hardly a miracle. Out of 15 members, only 2 cars failed to start, 13 worked fine. This was 1950. Cars weren't exactly as they are now. I would venture you could have picked 15 people out of anywhere in the country in 1950 at below freezing temperatures and at least a couple would have issues getting their car started.

Three members were delayed for the reason of just one member's issue. Not statistically unlikely at all. So one third of the members had entirely ordinary reasons for being late...

Reasonable conclusions include

a) The choir practice might have been boring and so people didn't make that much of an effort to get there on time
b) They clearly weren't particularly devout Christians, so quite why God decided to save these layabouts whilst ignoring the sufferings of many millions more seems callous at worst and frivolous at best
c) No information is given as to whether people were usually on time, and since one of them happily blew off a 7.20pm start to hear a radio show, being late was obviously not considered too terrible a thing to be...

and lastly:

Wouldn't it be more logical if God had simply intervened in one way and made sure the pastor didn't blow up the church, rather than intervening in no less than 15 ways? As they say, he supposedly moves in mysterious ways...

Heissonear said:

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Natural man's claims are based on the outer, my claims are from what He also put within the inner; man witnesses dust, followers of Him also witness the Realm and Power above the natural.

Many think their five senses are vital to what to believe. To date, they cannot comprehend the content of what Steve posted above.

Some are slow to learn His ways, and the Kingdom of God in our midst. They do not see what He is doing above the natural and even to the natural all the time. They act like He is not around, nor anywhere to be found.

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Most people don't see a limb grow back right in front of their eyes, you have no right to judge people if you actually saw that, because you have actually seen observable evidence of the supernatural while most people haven't. You have experienced the kind of evidence we want, you have it, we don't, our doubt would be mostly eliminated if we did see the same thing you claim to have seen, but we haven't.

I´d still like to know how Heissonear The Selected One can reliably tell a miracle from a fraud, an illusion or just an unexplained event.
I know that the question will earn me just more of the same self-aggrandization, strawmen and condescension - but it needs to be asked.

davidbilby said:

I just read the original post and my first reaction to this was not "miracle!" but to look into the claims.

Two of the members were late because their cars would not start. The weather on March 1st 1950 was around freezing and cars not starting when it is very cold is hardly a miracle. Out of 15 members, only 2 cars failed to start, 13 worked fine. This was 1950. Cars weren't exactly as they are now. I would venture you could have picked 15 people out of anywhere in the country in 1950 at below freezing temperatures and at least a couple would have issues getting their car started.

Three members were delayed for the reason of just one member's issue. Not statistically unlikely at all. So one third of the members had entirely ordinary reasons for being late...

Reasonable conclusions include

a) The choir practice might have been boring and so people didn't make that much of an effort to get there on time
b) They clearly weren't particularly devout Christians, so quite why God decided to save these layabouts whilst ignoring the sufferings of many millions more seems callous at worst and frivolous at best
c) No information is given as to whether people were usually on time, and since one of them happily blew off a 7.20pm start to hear a radio show, being late was obviously not considered too terrible a thing to be...

and lastly:

Wouldn't it be more logical if God had simply intervened in one way and made sure the pastor didn't blow up the church, rather than intervening in no less than 15 ways? As they say, he supposedly moves in mysterious ways...

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Couldn't we also view this as God punishing them for their tardiness by smiting their church?

Heissonear said:

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As I mentioned "many times" lately, I've seen Him spontaneously Create body materials and made a deformed arm normal. Again, an act of Creating materials that were not. And you whine against Him? Many people seem to "have not" received what others have, even from His ability and demonstrations to provide? Yes, for reasons still to be known.

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That's all fine and dandy, but people also claim they have been abducted by aliens and anally probed.

I believe they are delusional. Why wouldn't I believe the same about you? Do you have any proof of your claims?

ThinkForYourself said:

That's all fine and dandy, but people also claim they have been abducted by aliens and anally probed.

I believe they are delusional. Why wouldn't I believe the same about you? Do you have any proof of your claims?

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It is interesting how when real Spiritual Dynamics is witnessed to others that many relate such Power from on High to a grouping of: delusion, paranormal, a lie, fraud, tricked, hallucination, a psychosis, imaginary, work of aliens, and the list goes on. All of this comes to their mind to explain what happened.

Again, I'm fortunate to have met the Lord through His Spirit, even as the Bible states of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. God's Word came alive in me as He illuminated many parts of it, writing His Word on my heart. Heeding and walking with Him is through the Spirit and His Word planted in one's heart, the Word made near. One learns from the beginning that the Holy Spirit is not abstract or an illusion, but God's way of working with people.

As mentioned before but mostly misunderstood, Miracles is not God's method for people to turn to Him. Instead, people are to turn to Him through His Spirit working in them, within their heart. They are to be born again to a new life, through the Power of the Spirit. Miracles do not make people born again. Miracles do not Baptize people by the Spirit. Miracles also do not make God's Word near, even written on their heart. Miracles is not the Spirit working in people, changing them.

Miracles instead are attesting wonders, particularly to those who are only Naturalistic in their world views and do not think God exists. Miracles attest to Power above the natural. Miracles break the laws of nature, such as the Law of Conservation of Energy, where in natural science energy is neither created or destroyed.

However, Miracles are events beyond the natural, plain and simple. They cannot be "grouped" into a list of what someone hallucinated, seen through psychosis, was just a trick performed by man, was believed to be by aliens, and so on.

Those who are Naturalistic who hear of a Miracle through a witness most often express doubt, state as unreal, demand evidence that could be easily detected through the five senses, and so on. It is people like this who only "believe" something through the five senses, and think that is the only way to determine something is true. This group of people are of the five senses and bound to the five senses. In these people what good is the Spirit working within them? Can the Holy Spirit lead them? Are they sensitive to Him and heed Him through the Holy Spirit? Plain and simple - No!

So "attesting" Miracles have come and will continue to come to shake the foundations of Naturalistic people, who have become insensitive to God, even His Presence and Work within them through the Holy Spirit.

Naturalistic people mock at the things of the Spirit but are placed in a dilemma when Miracles occur that are clear signs of His Work, Spiritual Dynamics, above natural processes and powers. Miracles are to shakes the five senses belief system of those who do not know Him. Have you noticed how many Naturalistic people demanded physical proof - the very substance they walk by to keep them Naturalistic?

God usually has only a select number of Naturalistic people behold Miracles firsthand - typically who witnesses Miracles firsthand are those who are already walking and receiving from Him through the Power of the Holy Spirit. Miracles do not make these people "Special", better than other Spirit Filled believers, nor makes them think "Oh, THERE IS A GOD!". No, they already knew that there is a God firsthand, through the Power of His Spirit and Word working in them. The Miracles only gave them physical attesting testimony that He is, and His Power from on High Rules over the natural at times, with no uncertainty.


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PsychoSarah said:

Most people don't see a limb grow back right in front of their eyes, you have no right to judge people if you actually saw that, because you have actually seen observable evidence of the supernatural while most people haven't. You have experienced the kind of evidence we want, you have it, we don't, our doubt would be mostly eliminated if we did see the same thing you claim to have seen, but we haven't.

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Are you sure all you need are physical facts, and only continue to believe through the five senses? Do you not understand how God works in Power within others through His Spirit? That you must be born again to Enter His Kingdom? Again, what are attesting Miracles for?

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KTS said:

Not just my experience. There has never been an instance of any supernatural activity that is well documented and has proven to not have a rational explanation.

And how do you know that what they have experienced is actually the work of a god and not the result of something natural that they just don't understand and attribute to a god?
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The dilemma of Naturalists starts with not being Spirit Filled and led by the Holy Spirit. All Naturalists are use to is dust life. Life through the Spirit is a void in their life.

Miracles attest that there is Supernatural Powers over the natural, events that cannot be explained by natural causes, processes, or natural realm powers.

God still performs Miracles for this very reason, to disturbs those who think there is no higher Life nor Power. It shakes their belief system up, for good purpose.

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Heissonear said:

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The dilemma of Naturalists starts with not being Spirit Filled and led by the Holy Spirit. All Naturalists are use to is dust life. Life through the Spirit is a void in their life.

Miracles attest that there is Supernatural Powers over the natural, events that cannot be explained by natural causes, processes, or natural realm powers.

God still performs Miracles for this very reason, to disturbs those who think there is no higher Life nor Power. It shakes their belief system up, for good purpose.

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I see a lot of vague claims here, nothing more...

KTS said:

I see a lot of vague claims here, nothing more...

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More so vague claims the other way, that Miracles never happen and to this point each have natural reasons in how they occurred.

Again, it is fortunate I have witnessed more than one Miracle, and know there were no natural explanations, not even near possible natural reasons for happening.

No lying, not deceived by man, no hallucinations, no psychosis, no delusions, no aliens, and no deceptions. Just purely beyond the physical realm phenomenon; a clear work of Intelligent Higher Powers.

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Heissonear said:

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More so vague claims the other way, that Miracles never happen and to this point each have natural reasons in how they occurred.

Again, it is fortunate I have witnessed more than one Miracle,

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yes, you're special; we wen through this already.

and know there were no natural explanations, not even near possible natural reasons for happening.

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You looked into it? You went to the limits of all human understanding and still found nothing?

You're even more special than you claimed to be previously.

No lying, not deceived by man, no hallucinations, no psychosis, no delusions, no aliens, and no deceptions. Just purely beyond the physical realm phenomenon; a clear work of Intelligent Higher Powers.

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IOW, you gave up trying to find an answer, and put the whole thing in God's hands.

Not that there's anything wrong with that; just be honest enough to call it for what it is.

Heissonear said:

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More so vague claims the other way, that Miracles never happen and to this point each have natural reasons in how they occurred.

Again, it is fortunate I have witnessed more than one Miracle, and know there were no natural explanations, not even near possible natural reasons for happening.

No lying, not deceived by man, no hallucinations, no psychosis, no delusions, no aliens, and no deceptions. Just purely beyond the physical realm phenomenon; a clear work of Intelligent Higher Powers.

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More blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Heissonear said:

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Are you sure all you need are physical facts, and only continue to believe through the five senses? Do you not understand how God works in Power within others through His Spirit? That you must be born again to Enter His Kingdom? Again, what are attesting Miracles for?

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You are asking an atheist what miracles are for? How should I know why any deity does what it does, or you for that matter? But if your supposed miracle is a surgery or a skin graph, then yes, doctors did that, not god. But if you actually saw a limb regrow all on its own, I am not going to dispute that as an actual miracle, you saw a freaking limb magically grow back on a person, that doesn't happen on its own. But I am not going to take your word for it all by itself, given how much people fake miracles and make up stories.

Heissonear said:

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More so vague claims the other way, that Miracles never happen and to this point each have natural reasons in how they occurred.

Again, it is fortunate I have witnessed more than one Miracle, and know there were no natural explanations, not even near possible natural reasons for happening.

No lying, not deceived by man, no hallucinations, no psychosis, no delusions, no aliens, and no deceptions. Just purely beyond the physical realm phenomenon; a clear work of Intelligent Higher Powers.

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But Occam's Razor tells us that the simplest explanation is the best, and we shouldn't conclude that something is a miracle without first exhausting every other possibility.

KTS said:

But Occam's Razor tells us that the simplest explanation is the best, and we shouldn't conclude that something is a miracle without first exhausting every other possibility.

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You are quite attracted to Occam's philosophy.

"We shouldn't conclude"

It does not take a Miracle to know Him. He listens to and watches us every moment. He is never far off. He makes Himself known through the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

You must be born again.

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quatona said:

I´d still like to know how Heissonear The Selected One can reliably tell a miracle from a fraud, an illusion or just an unexplained event.
I know that the question will earn me just more of the same self-aggrandization, strawmen and condescension - but it needs to be asked.

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Miracles are centered on Power above the natural. Pretty simple.

You can question things since you were not there, including since you did not already know Him before and after the event.

He confirmed through His Spirit afterwards many times that He performed the event.

We shouldn't walk around seeking Miracles. In turn, only Supernatural Power lies ahead of us, Life above the natural. Miracles are wonders of His timing and purpose. Miracles wreck havoc on Naturalism and Scientism.

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Heissonear said:

It does not take a Miracle to know Him. He listens to and watches us every moment. He is never far off. He makes Himself known through the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

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Didn't it take a miracle for you to know Him?

Heissonear said:

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Miracles are centered on Power above the natural. Pretty simple.

You can question things since you were not there, including since you did not already know Him before and after the event.

He confirmed through His Spirit afterwards many times that He performed the event.

We shouldn't walk around seeking Miracles. In turn, only Supernatural Power lies ahead of us, Life above the natural. Miracles are wonders of His timing and purpose. Miracles wreck havoc on Naturalism and Scientism.

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You forgot to answer my question.

Heissonear said:

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You are quite attracted to Occam's philosophy.

"We shouldn't conclude"

It does not take a Miracle to know Him. He listens to and watches us every moment. He is never far off. He makes Himself known through the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

You must be born again.

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More vague claims, not a shred of evidence to support. And you did absolutely NOTHING to show that occam's razor is wrong.

So why should I believe?

Because you really REALLY think it's true? Sorry, the fact that you think it's true isn't good enough for me.