How are we justified?

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

wow that was a lonnnnngggg post Shamash.

While we will each be judged and rewarded according to our works they can never justify us.

Would you agree?

I agree and thought I said that in my long post But remember what happens to those who are disobedient even though they healed others in the name above all names.

Rev 22:12-15 HNV "Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. (13) I am the Alef and the Tav, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. (14) Blessed are those who do his mitzvot, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. (15) Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Shabbat Shalom,

Tag

 

[yod]

I agree and thought I said that in my long post

ok...so I'm a little slow sometimes.

 

[koilias]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]


Indeed - IF you can obey all of Torah without ever transgressing then you will have eternal life - barring that only the Blood of Moshiakh and our faith in it, as demonstrated by our consistant stirving to obey the mitzvot, can ensure us eternal life.


Yeshua answered this Temple Lawyer according to the intent of the question and the man's frame of reference. This answer by no means cancels out the myriad other scriptures that clearly state we are incapable of keeping Torah flawlessly and therefore need atonement.

[/font]

I'm perhaps confused in my reading of scripture. I read the story the way my Jewish teacher of Rabbinic parables discussed it. She isn't a Christian though, so I need to reflect on this better! What does the lawyer's "frame of reference" as you put it any different than what's in context? Your answer is still confusing me a bit. In context, Yeshua is offering an example of a man who is treating his "neighbor" as he would treat himself, aka he's fulfilling the command.

In relation to other Scriptures, atonement is HaShem's to give, He is the justifier who cancels our debts. We need the purifying blood of the lamb for that. The example of the Good Samaritan though, shows that HaShem grants it to whomever He will. Unless you can convince me otherwise. (Is the Good Samaritan in hell?)

 

[yod]

There are many nice and moral "religions" (such as Mormons) and the Word seems to make it clear that our righteousness is as filthy rags apart from Him.

Yet, love DOES cover a multitude of sins within that context so it looks like both of you are right.

But anytime we make a theology from a parable it is shaky ground. They are only good for illustrating a point, not for solid theology because a parable can be interpreted too many ways.

ci'?

 

[Henaynei]

Dear koilias,
I can never hope to stand with the knowledge of the Rabbi you reference. I can only share my personally learned insight.

You originally stated/posted:

Messiah taught we are saved through our love for others.

You then used the "Good Samaritan" parable as "proof" that Yeshua taught "we are saved through our love of others."

What Yeshua was doing was:
1) Agreeing you can be saved by keeping Torah if you can do it ALL your life - flawlessly. (In this He was addressing a lawyer from the point of the Law - in his own backyard, if you will)
2) Teaching love of G-d is a higher command than love of neighbor - but both are Torah.
3) Giving the defination of "neighbor," via a parable, as requested by the Temple Lawyer.

LOL - what does it mean to *you* when the prosecuting lawyer stops in the middle of a cross-examination and asks the defendant to define His own words??

Dear chaver, Love is definately a command of Torah. As you surely know, none of us can keep Torah flawlessly. It is true "they shall know us by our love," for IF we love G-d with all our hearts we will also love our neighbor. This love is the *proof* of our saving relationship with HaShem, not the path through which we achieve that relationship.

 

[koilias]

But anytime we make a theology from a parable it is shaky ground. They are only good for illustrating a point, not for solid theology because a parable can be interpreted too many ways.

ci'?

I STRONGLY AGREE with you! Parables aren't supposed to be taken literally or be over-analyzed especially. So I'm better able to consider the view that the parable is not suggesting a "path" to salvation. At the same time, let's be clear, we cannot attain that salvation by our actions, I think HaShem only looks at the heart, and judges men and women on that basis. That's the "context" that I read the parable in.

I had a suspicion that the early Jewish Christians took "love covers over a multitude of sins" literally in their theology. But this was the scholar in me who thought this, not the Christian theologian in me. Lately, I've really become circumspect about scholasticism. If not bridled, it can quickly turn into a vice and a stumbling block. Thanks for setting me straight!

 

[koilias]

You then used the "Good Samaritan" parable as "proof" that Yeshua taught "we are saved through our love of others."

LOL - what does it mean to *you* when the prosecuting lawyer stops in the middle of a cross-examination and asks the defendant to define His own words??

Dear chaver, Love is definately a command of Torah. As you surely know, none of us can keep Torah flawlessly. It is true "they shall know us by our love," for IF we love G-d with all our hearts we will also love our neighbor. This love is the *proof* of our saving relationship with HaShem, not the path through which we achieve that relationship.

Rather, I would qualify by saying that through showing love to others we show love to HaShem and "fulfill" the heart of Torah completely. Let's leave "salvation" out of the equation for now.

Yeshua was asked about this matter on another occassion. He was asked "What is the greatest COMMAND?" (in the singular not the plural). Yeshua answers with TWO commands in order to show that they are indeed ONE. This kind of halakhic winking is typical in Rabbinic (especially Hasidic) interchanges (we tend to miss the subtleties). Paul says "Love your neighbor as yourself" is the summation of Torah. Hillel said the same. The Rabbis understand "love your neighbor as yourself" as encompassing the first command.

What I think the cross-examination represents:

The lawyer was seeking to show that he was indeed fulfilling the Torah (for he is charitable towards others in his eyes) and therefore he expects the reward of eternal life. But Yeshua throws it back in his face, when he shows that a gentile is better able to fulfill Torah then, because inspite of his unwarranted kindness towards a Jew, he sook no reward. Blind to a clear understanding of Torah, the Samaritan is nonetheless "more righteous" ("more charitable") because he seeks no reward, and no justification because of his actions... LOL, I hope this agrees with you.

 

[Andre]

Jesus said: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (John 14-6)

You can't be save by following all of G-d's law's "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified (Galatians 2:16)." "12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. (Romans 5:12-19)" Jesus was the only one who did follow all of G-d's laws without failure so that thru His blood you can be presented blameless before the Father, as long as "you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that G-d raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." (Romans 10:9-10).


Sorry for using "American" names here, I'm still getting used to the whole Yeshua, and Torah thing...

Btw, do you guys know where I can find a HNV Bible online? I usually read from www.biblegateway.com but they don't have it.

G-d Bless!!!

 

[simchat_torah]

What's the HNV? Do you mean the HRV?

sorry, just never heard of the 'hnv' before.

 

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

Btw, do you guys know where I can find a HNV Bible online? I usually read from www.biblegateway.com but they don't have it.

G-d Bless!!!

e-Sword.net
You can download e-sword for free at the above address and then download the HNV Bible as well as other add-ons also.

Praise YHWH, blessed is HIS Name, with the Faith of Yeshua Ha Mashiach for a blessing such as those who freely give as is given to them. Also in my opinion anything to do with YHWH shouldn't be charged as most in this world do. Those that do charge in my opinion don't rely on YHWH for payment due.

Shalom,

Tag

 

[SonWorshipper]

is it?


nevermind

I guess not.

 

[koilias]

Jesus said: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (John 14-6)

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. (Romans 5:12-19)"

(Emphasis mine).

Curious juxtoposition Andre. LOL, it makes something clear:

The Samaritan has no knowledge of Messiah's salvific blood. Yet Yeshua has knowledge of his righteousness. The Samaritan thus can go to the Father through Yeshua. All people have knowledge of the gospel already in their hearts, but few ever live it, even those that profess it. The Samaritan is one of the rare people who lived it.

"All men" (and women) is what Paul says. For we're all sons of Adam, much more (the entire creation) then, all men and women included, are justified through Yeshua. The problem of redemption remains for those who reject (disobey) Yeshua, but still, HaShem shall judge even those on the basis of how they treated others. By their own standards they shall be judged.

The purpose for evangelism is that love might abound: how will they know to love others if we don't share gospel?

 

[AnthonyForChrist]

wow that was a lonnnnngggg post Shamash.

While we will each be judged and rewarded according to our works they can never justify us.

Would you agree?

I agree. Belief in the atonement in Moshiach and repentance of one's sin's is necessary for salvation. The first judgement will be whether or not we have trusted the words and deeds of Yeshua. The second judgement for believers will be more an evaluation of one's works here on earth, and subsequent receiving of rewards, or "crowns," in heaven. The kingdom of God is an inheritance given through the grace of God. There is no earning it. However, while in heaven we shall receive blessings (perhaps of understanding?) according to how we have conducted ourselves. Does this sound accurate?

 

[Andre]

Agree.

 

[Waters]

Hi. I am new to this forum.

I am glad to listen to many who are not taking this into legalism terms and such. There are a couple of things that I have been thinking about, and was hoping I could get them answered here.
As I understand Judiasm believes in forgiveness of sin even to this day from repentance. I also know that Yeshua forgave many sins, and said that if we forgive, we may before given. My question is where does the sacrifice of Yeshua fit? If sins of the Fathers were forgiven before Yeshua died, why or what then, is the point to his sacrifice? If someone can have faith in HaShem and love for that is what all commands hang on, where does it fit?

Thank you in advance. Shalom

 

[Andre]

Hi. I am new to this forum.

I am glad to listen to many who are not taking this into legalism terms and such. There are a couple of things that I have been thinking about, and was hoping I could get them answered here.
As I understand Judiasm believes in forgiveness of sin even to this day from repentance. I also know that Yeshua forgave many sins, and said that if we forgive, we may before given. My question is where does the sacrifice of Yeshua fit? If sins of the Fathers were forgiven before Yeshua died, why or what then, is the point to his sacrifice? If someone can have faith in HaShem and love for that is what all commands hang on, where does it fit?

Thank you in advance. Shalom

The atonement of sin for those who believe in the Messiah to come (before Yeshua' 1st comming) only happened when Yeshua shed His blood at the cross, the repentance of sin and sacrifices where only symbolic to His sacrifice, The bible mentions the Abrahams Bosom, as I understand it's a place close to hell or in hell, but it was not a place of suffering, it was a place that those who died before Yeshua were placed so that they could wait for the real atonement of their sins to happen so they could finally be rescued by Yeshua and be with the Father.

Luke 16:23-16
"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "And he cried out and said, ' Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'


Ephisians 4:8-10
8 Therefore it says,
" WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH,
HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES,
AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

 

[ImAHebrew]

Shalom Waters,

You wrote:

Hi. I am new to this forum.

I am glad to listen to many who are not taking this into legalism terms and such. There are a couple of things that I have been thinking about, and was hoping I could get them answered here.
As I understand Judiasm believes in forgiveness of sin even to this day from repentance. I also know that Yeshua forgave many sins, and said that if we forgive, we may before given. My question is where does the sacrifice of Yeshua fit? If sins of the Fathers were forgiven before Yeshua died, why or what then, is the point to his sacrifice? If someone can have faith in HaShem and love for that is what all commands hang on, where does it fit?

Thank you in advance. Shalom

Your questions are good. Forgiveness is a very easy matter, it's easier than telling someone to take up their mat and walk. If fact, ALL manner of sin WILL be forgiven the sons of men, with the exception of the sin against the Spirit. So, you ask, just what was the purpose of Yahshua' sacrifice? To bring about the "remission" of sin. When sin goes into remission, it is no longer active, and this was the main purpose of Yahshua's sacrifice. His death and suffering is to cut us to the heart and cause us to turn from a life of sin. Now in the process of turning us FROM sin, He has given us the free gift of righteousness (justification). Righteousness IS all of Elohim's commandments (Ps 119:172).

This is how it works. Yahweh's Torah commands a sinner to sacrifice when they commit sin. The Jew recognized this and began to use the animal sacrifices in a substitutional sense. They would sin, and bring a sin offering and think that Yahweh was pleased with their sacrifice (it was a righteous commmand wasn't it?). But what they failed to recognize is that the purpose of the sacrifice was to get them to turn from their sin, and the blood (death) of an animal really couldn't accomplish this because who is really concerned for a dumb animal? But with Yahshua, it is another matter. Whoever comes to realize that they did sacrifice Yahshua must be cut to the heart, and truly repent from their former way of life, else they publicly show they have no regret for what their sin did do. Our sin did sacrifice (crucify) Yahshua (Heb 6:4...).

Now here is the insight concerning Justification. The Torah commands a sinner to sacrifice, and when a sinner does this they are performing righteousness (remember all of Yahweh's commands are righteousnes-Psa 119:172). This fulfilling of the righteous requirement of the Torah (sacrificing for our sin), is according to the Spiritual fulfillment of the sacrifices, not the physical (works). Yahshua is YOUR sacrifice and MINE. We both did nail Him to the tree. We did this with the help of wicked men, and it was accomplished as a direct result of our sin. So, as Paul states, when sin increased, grace (free gift of righteousness) increased all the more. This DOING of righteousness (Spiritual fulfillment of the Torah) is a direct result of our sin. Most people do not grasp that concept. But Paul said that if anyone seeks justification in Moshiach, it is EVIDENT they were a sinner (Gal 2:17). We had to be a sinner to be declared righteous through the death/sacrifice of Yahshua. Now, when Paul taught this way, people would slanderously report him as saying "let us do evil, so that good may result," (Rom 3:5-8). And that's not the message. The message is that your sin and mine did kill the Moshiach, and if we believe that He is OUR sacrifice, then we are credited as having accomplished what the Torah required of us for our sin. This is not according to physically/by works accomplishing the sacrifices (as the Jew relied upon), no, this is according to the Spiritual side of the Torah that a believer accomplishes through faith in Yahshua HaMoshiach (Rom 8:1-4).

I hope this hasn't been to long winded, sometimes I get that way. If you want me to clarify any more don't hesitate to ask.

Blessings in The Name,
ImAHebrew

 

[koilias]

Great food for fodder ImaHebrew.

I would like to add another reason: to bring redemption on the land, to bring HaShem's mercy on his people. When blood cries out from the ground, HaShem listens and can't help responding. Ancient Jews believed that the blood of a Jewish martyr moved HaShem to have compassion. When a Jew was slain unjustly, it "atoned" for the land, just like the sacrifice on Yom Kippur. How much more would the land be atoned for, then, by the spilled blood of HaShem's own son?

Yeshua called himself the "Son of man", which in Hebrew is "ben Adam", "son of Adam". "Son of Adam" was a title the Jews called the righteous judge who would judge all of mankind at the end of time. No angel can judge mankind, only another man can judge mankind, since the angels can't relate to man (or have compassion). Some thought that this righteous judge was Hanuch, others Melkitzedek, but there is an ancient text that says that the "Son of Adam" described in Daniel was, of course, none other than Abel, Abel "haTzadik", Abel the Righteous, Adam's son, who's blood cried out for redemption...

Yeshua called himself the "ben Adam" for he knew he was the righteous shepherd who's spilled blood (like Abel's) would cry for redemption and thus bring vengeance on Israel's enemies. The thing that prevents HaShem's judgment from arriving, as Paul lamented, was the fact that most Jews refused to acknowledge Yeshua's sacrifice. So in the time being, compassion comes instead to the gentiles (Romans 11).

When the Jewish people accept MeshiaH, that's when the end will come, and vengeance will come upon the gentiles.

 

[yod]

HI Waters...and welcome

As I understand Judiasm believes in forgiveness of sin even to this day from repentance. I also know that Yeshua forgave many sins, and said that if we forgive, we may before given. My question is where does the sacrifice of Yeshua fit?

In the story of the passover Lamb, each individual family had to take a spotless little lamb into their home and observe it for 4 days to be sure that there was no blemish. Imagine your children playing with this little lamb for 4 days. It would quickly become a pet


Why a lamb? It is incapable of sin or iniquity. After 4 days you sacrifice this innocent lamb and place the blood on the door of your house.

You better have the faith to believe G-d when He said to do that or you would also suffer the judgement! For the people of G-d, this was followed by a miraculous "baptism" of going through the Red Sea and then years in the wilderness before reaching the Promised Land.

This is not just history. He has even today made provision for us to escape the judgement coming upon this world by providing Himself a Lamb. We go through a baptism when coming to faith (I'm not talking about mere water) then we'll wander through this wilderness growing in faith until we reach the promised land.

It takes faith to know this.

If sins of the Fathers were forgiven before Yeshua died, why or what then, is the point to his sacrifice?

Not sure exactly what you are talking about but G-d still visits the iniquities of the Fathers to the 3rd & 4th generation.

Sin in an outward act.....iniquity is an inward motivation...the hearts attitude. Yeshua was wounded for our transgressions (outward sins) and bruised for OUR iniquity (inward motivation) so that we might be free from the penalty of our sin. Even more important than that is the gift of the Holy Spirit which changes our heart's attitude...and removes our iniquity! Someone might be able to keep most of the law in the flesh...but removing iniquity is a job that only the Lord can do. How does one get this kind of power? Ask..... Believe.....Trust....He will answer. Without faith it is impossible to please Him yet He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.



When we realize HOW MUCH our sin has cost Him....how much He did for us....then it will motivate us to good works as we want to please the innocent One who gave His life in exchange for the guilty.

If someone can have faith in HaShem and love for that is what all commands hang on, where does it fit?

Until you have experienced the kind of love that Yeshua has for you, then you don't know what love really is.

That was my experience. I didn't know how to love my wife...my kids....my friends....my enemies...until I saw G-d's model. When we see how much He loves the people He has created we are compelled to love them as He does. We fail far too often but we keep trying.

Hope that helps

 

[Waters]

Shalom.

Pray4Israel & Andre

Q4U - If sins could be forgiven before Yeshua arrived, what then would be the need to take the punishment of your sin, or be your sacrifice? Andre - is there a difference between atonement and being forgiven? Yeshua clearly forgave sinners before he died. For what purpose could they not reach heaven?

Shalom.