How are we justified?

[Henaynei]

In order to settle this once and for posterity and future reference in this forum:

How do you believe you are justified (that is "saved" or made "in right standing" with HaShem [a.k.a. the Father])?

1) We are justified by faith - alone
2) We are justified by the Blood of Messiah - alone
3) We are justified by obedience to (any) set of rules or commandments - alone
4) We are justified by some other method or combination [please explain]

 

[SonWorshipper]

How about faith in the blood of the Lamb? Isn't that what was counted as righteousness for Abraham?

 

[simchat_torah]

I'm down with what P4I said yo.

 

[simchat_torah]

:: grumbles something about twins ::

 

[simchat_torah]

:: starts picking on his little sister ::

Oh, and toss on a supersized version of rewards for the mitzvot we follow.

 

[Andre]

I believe we are save thru faith in the blood of Jesus, faith in God alone won't save you, the sacrifice of Jesus alone won't save you, you must believe in it and have faith in God to be saved. Once you come to a saving faith in Jesus it's the work of the Holy Spirit that will change you to comply to God's comandments.

Ezekiel 36:27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

 

[Henaynei]

I believe:
We are justified by faith in the Blood of Moshiakh as evidenced by our obedience to His mitzvot - alone.

Grace we receive (in heaping helpings) after justification.

What we receive prior to justification is His mercy - in fact it is His mercy that we survive long enough to reach out for His justification.

Faith without obedience is dead, and so are we.

 

[SonWorshipper]

You know I was gonna add Isaac to the equasion.

 

[Andre]

I believe:
We are justified by faith in the Blood of Moshiakh as evidenced by our obedience to His mitzvot - alone.

Grace we receive (in heaping helpings) after justification.

What we receive prior to justification is His mercy - in fact it is His mercy that we survive long enough to reach out for His justification.

Faith without obedience is dead, and so are we.

Yep, James 2:17.

 

[yod]

1) We are justified by faith - alone
2) We are justified by the Blood of Messiah - alone
3) We are justified by obedience to (any) set of rules or commandments - alone
4) We are justified by some other method or combination [please explain]

it's a trick question.


We are justified by faith in His blood sacrifice.

This should cause us to be grateful...and that compells us to obedience as we are changed from glory to glory and made into a new creature.

 

[SonWorshipper]

Isn't that what I said?

Actually I was thinking of this and it helps to remind us of what we believe, for we are to be like Moshiach, nu? ( A friend shared this with me)

The L-rd needed three things to bring Moshiach into the world, three things in his human ancestral heritage, and these three things he got from the Patriarches.

Father Abraham had incredible Faith
Father Yitz'chak had incredible Obedience
Father Ya'akov had incredible Will ( or strength of character)

These three character traits were needed to bring forth Moshiach, and I believe we too should have these.

 

[yod]

Isn't that what I said?

is it?


nevermind

 

[YatzivPatgam]

Go obediance go!

 

[Henaynei]

it's a trick question.

No, it isn't - there are plenty of people around who believe each of those choices.....

My goal, obtuse as it seems to have been, was to create a record of what the members of this forum believed as it pertains to the attainment of salvation.

This is because in one or more of the current threads there are those who keep saying that *we believe* that obedience alone saves - just because we believe in obedience.

If I had a $5 for every time I have written or said something like the following I'd be able to buy Bill Gates out!!

"I obey Torah BECAUSE I love Him and serve Him. I obey Torah because He is G-d and He said 'obey.' I DON"T obey Him to earn forgivness or life or health or favor or eternal life or ANYTHING! My salvation is by faith in His sacrifice - that faith evidenced by my obedience to His mitzvot."

I am just SO tired of people side tracking a good discussion with charges of legalism (as has happened in several other threads) I could become a hermit!

So rather than getting to a nunnery (where they wouldn't have me anyway) I thought to post this poll and "get it in writting" so to speak!!

Now I know I have spread a whole cabbage load of "trigger words" like Obey, Legalism and Salvation. I urge you to avoid the temptation to run off after some rabbit trail following those words and stay focused

 

[yod]

Quote:
it's a trick question.

No, it isn't - there are plenty of people around who believe each of those choices.....

then they are crazy and should just sit down and listen to you!

 

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

In order to settle this once and for posterity and future reference in this forum:

How do you believe you are justified (that is "saved" or made "in right standing" with HaShem [a.k.a. the Father])?

1) We are justified by faith - alone
We know according to scripture that faith alone isn't enough.
2) We are justified by the Blood of Messiah - alone
We know that we are cleansed by the blood that Yeshua spilled. Yet I see more then this at work. For we will be judged by our works.
3) We are justified by obedience to (any) set of rules or commandments - alone
And we know according to scripture we aren't justified by obeying the Mitzvot(Commandments, Laws) alone.
4) We are justified by some other method or combination [please explain]

We are justified by faith in the shed blood of Yeshua that YHWH provided and Yeshua's being raised from the dead also by YHWH with the combination of our obedience to obeying YHWH's Mitzvot. For we will be judged according to our Works. Of course you need a Tutor to know right from wrong, which happens to be YHWH's Mitzvot. Then after our faith in YHWH through finding justification through Yeshua we learn from YHWH's Mitzvot(tutor) what is expected of us and we do this all by Faith from the Grace HE gave us, not that our works will give us eternal life.
Of course we are to do as Yeshua did when He was on planet Earth. He was Obedient to YHWH in obeying HIS Mitzvot and correcting what the Jewish teachers and scribes were teaching. Of course to learn the Hebrew roots of our faith we must go to the Jews to learn what they grow up and live in. Of course all this in Faith that YHWH will give HIS Spirit to us to guide us to all Truth in all things.

May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,
Shalom,

Tag

(Gen 49:10 HNV) The scepter will not depart from Yehudah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs. To him will the obedience of the peoples be. 11 Binding his foal to the vine, his donkey's colt to the choice vine; he has washed his garments in wine, his robes in the blood of grapes.

(Rom 1:1 HNV) Sha'ul, a servant of Yeshua the Messiah, called to be an emissary, set apart for the Good News of God, 2 which he promised before through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 who was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead, Yeshua the Messiah our Lord, 5 through whom we received grace and the office of emissary, for obedience of faith among all the nations, for his name's sake; 6 among whom you are also called to belong to Yeshua the Messiah; 7to all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be holy ones: Grace to you and shalom from God our Father and the Lord Yeshua the Messiah.

(Rom 3:19 HNV) Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God. 20 Because by the works of the law, no flesh will be justified in his sight. For through the law comes the knowledge of sin. 21 But now apart from the law, a righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified by the Torah and the Prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Yeshua the Messiah to all and on all those who believe. For there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Messiah Yeshua; 25 whom God set forth to be an atoning sacrifice, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God's forbearance; 26 to demonstrate his righteousness at this present time; that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him who has faith in Yeshua. 27 Where then is the boasting? It is excluded. By what manner of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 We maintain therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Isn't he the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith, and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then nullify the law through faith? May it never be! No, we establish the law.

(Rom 5:1 HNV) Being therefore justified by faith, we have shalom with God through our Lord Yeshua the Messiah; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only this, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering works perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope: 5 and hope doesn't disappoint us, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. 6 For while we were yet weak, at the right time Messiah died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man. Yet perhaps for a righteous person someone would even dare to die. 8 But God commends his own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Messiah died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God's wrath through him. 10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we will be saved by his life. 11 Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. 12 Therefore, as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin; and so death passed to all men, because all sinned. 13 For until the law, sin was in the world; but sin is not charged when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moshe, even over those whose sins weren't like Adam's disobedience, who is a foreshadowing of him who was to come. 15 But the free gift isn't like the trespass. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Yeshua the Messiah, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not as through one who sinned: for the judgment came by one to condemnation, but the free gift came of many trespasses to justification. 17 For if by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; so much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Yeshua the Messiah. 18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life. 19 For as through the one man's disobedience many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, many will be made righteous. 20 The law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace abounded more exceedingly; 21 that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Yeshua the Messiah our Lord.

(Gal 3:1 HNV) Foolish Galatim, who has bewitched you not to obey the truth, before whose eyes Yeshua the Messiah was openly set forth among you as crucified? 2 I just want to learn this from you. Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now completed in the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain, if it is indeed in vain? 5 He therefore who supplies the Spirit to you, and works miracles among you, does he do it by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith? 6 Even as Avraham "believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." 7 Know therefore that those who are of faith, the same are children of Avraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Good News beforehand to Avraham, saying, "In you all the nations will be blessed." 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed with the faithful Avraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse. For it is written, "Cursed is everyone who doesn't continue in all things that are written in the scroll of the Torah, to do them." 11 Now that no man is justified by the Torah before God is evident, for, "The righteous will live by faith." 12 The law is not of faith, but, "The man who does them will live by them." 13 Messiah redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree," 14 that the blessing of Avraham might come on the Gentiles through Messiah Yeshua; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brothers, speaking of human terms, though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been confirmed, no one makes it void, or adds to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Avraham and to his seed. He doesn't say, "To seeds," as of many, but as of one, "To your seed," which is Messiah. 17 Now I say this. A covenant confirmed beforehand by God in Messiah, the law, which came four hundred thirty years after, does not annul, so as to make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise; but God has granted it to Avraham by promise. 19 What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the seed should come to whom the promise has been made. It was ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not between one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could make alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the Scriptures imprisoned all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Yeshua the Messiah might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, confined for the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 So that the law has become our tutor to bring us to Messiah, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all children of God, through faith in Messiah Yeshua. 27 For as many of you as were immersed into Messiah have put on Messiah. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Messiah Yeshua. 29 If you are Messiah's, then you are Avraham's seed and heirs according to promise.

(Jam 2:1 HNV) My brothers, don't hold the faith of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah of glory with partiality. 2 For if a man with a gold ring, in fine clothing, comes into your synagogue, and a poor man in filthy clothing also comes in; 3 and you pay special attention to him who wears the fine clothing, and say, "Sit here in a good place;" and you tell the poor man, "Stand there," or "Sit by my footstool;" 4 haven't you shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts? 5 Listen, my beloved brothers. Didn't God choose those who are poor in this world to be rich in faith, and heirs of the Kingdom which he promised to those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Don't the rich oppress you, and personally drag you before the courts? 7 Don't they blaspheme the honorable name by which you are called? 8 However, if you fulfill the royal Torah, according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well. 9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin, being convicted by the Torah as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole Torah, and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not commit murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak, and so do, as men who are to be judged by a law of freedom. 13 For judgment is without mercy to him who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. 14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man says he has faith, but has no works? Can faith save him? 15 And if a brother or sister is naked and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you tells them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled;" and yet you didn't give them the things the body needs, what good is it? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead in itself. 18 Yes, a man will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. The demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But do you want to know, vain man, that faith apart from works is dead? 21 Wasn't Avraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Yitzchak his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith worked with his works, and by works faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Avraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness;" and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that by works, a man is justified, and not only by faith. 25 In like manner wasn't Rachav the prostitute also justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.

(2Co 10:3 HNV) For though we walk in the flesh, we don't wage war according to the flesh; 4 for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but mighty before God to the throwing down of strongholds, 5 throwing down imaginations and every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Messiah; 6 and being in readiness to avenge all disobedience, when your obedience will be made full.

(Heb 5:1 HNV) For every Kohen Gadol, being taken from among men, is appointed for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 The Kohen Gadol can deal gently with those who are ignorant and going astray, because he himself is also surrounded with weakness. 3 Because of this, he must offer sacrifices for sins for the people, as well as for himself. 4 Nobody takes this honor on himself, but he is called by God, just like Aharon was. 5 So also Messiah didn't glorify himself to be made a Kohen Gadol, but it was he who said to him, "You are my Son. Today I have become your father." 6 As he says also in another place, "You are a Kohen forever, after the order of Malki-Tzedek." 7 He, in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and petitions with strong crying and tears to him who was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, 8 though he was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which he suffered. 9 Having been made perfect, he became to all of those who obey him the author of eternal salvation, 10 named by God a Kohen Gadol after the order of Malki-Tzedek. 11 About him we have many words to say, and hard to interpret, seeing you have become dull of hearing. 12 For when by reason of the time you ought to be teachers, you again need to have someone teach you the rudiments of the first principles of the oracles of God. You have come to need milk, and not solid food. 13 For everyone who lives on milk is not experienced in the word of righteousness, for he is a baby. 14 But solid food is for those who are full grown, who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil.

(1Pe 1:1 HNV) Kefa, an emissary of Yeshua the Messiah, to the chosen ones who are living as foreigners in the Diaspora in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, that you may obey Yeshua the Messiah and be sprinkled with his blood: Grace to you and shalom be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, who according to his great mercy became our father again to a living hope through the resurrection of Yeshua the Messiah from the dead, 4 to an incorruptible and undefiled inheritance that doesn't fade away, reserved in Heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been put to grief in various trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, which is more precious than gold that perishes even though it is tested by fire, may be found to result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Yeshua the Messiah-- 8 whom not having known you love; in whom, though now you don't see him, yet believing, you rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory-- 9 receiving the result of your faith, the salvation of your souls. 10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets sought and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching for who or what kind of time the Spirit of Messiah, which was in them, pointed to, when he predicted the sufferings of Messiah, and the glories that would follow them. 12 To them it was revealed, that not to themselves, but to you, they ministered these things, which now have been announced to you through those who preached the Good News to you by the Holy Spirit sent out from heaven; which things angels desire to look into. 13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, be sober and set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Yeshua the Messiah-- 14 as children of obedience, not conforming yourselves according to your former lusts as in your ignorance, 15 but just as he who called you is holy, you yourselves also be holy in all of your behavior; 16 because it is written, "You shall be holy; for I am holy." 17 If you call on him as Father, who without respect of persons judges according to each man's work, pass the time of your living as foreigners here in reverent fear: 18 knowing that you were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from the useless way of life handed down from your fathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a faultless and pure lamb, the blood of Messiah; 20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was revealed at the end of times for your sake, 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead, and gave him glory; so that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing you have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth through the Spirit in sincere brotherly affection, love one another from the heart fervently: 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which lives and remains forever. 24 For, "All flesh is like grass, and all of man's glory like the flower in the grass. The grass withers, and its flower falls; 25 But the Lord's word endures forever." This is the word of Good News which was preached to you.

 

[Achichem]

Our shortfalls are filled by our willingness and actions towards repentance, by means of the blood of the Messiah.



Our reconciling to the L-rd G-d is made by our love/acts towards him, by means of the blood of the Messiah.



This of course is all made possible by one the wonderful Grace of G-d.

 

[koilias]

Messiah taught we are saved through our love for others. That's both obedience and grace. Obedience is an act of lovingkindness towards God. It's just that that love encompasses so much more...love for your neighbor, most importantly.

When Yeshuah was asked "What must I do to receive eternal life?" He told them them about the Good Samaritan.

Good Samaritan wasn't a good Jew. He was just a good person.

You might even say that by showing an act of kindness to his enemy, the Jew, that HaShem's hands are tied behind His back against judging the Samaritan for any of his sins. This man showed lovingkindness towards one of his dear ones, now HaShem has to do the same towards him.

Yeshua was a genius.

The more I think about his teaching the more I love this man!

 

[Henaynei]

Messiah taught we are saved through our love for others. [snip]When Yeshuah was asked "What must I do to receive eternal life?" He told them them about the Good Samaritan.

WOW - what a great example of convoluted quoting of scripture That is NOT what Yeshua said.......

This is what He said:

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Lukas [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer (aka Scribe) stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou ? [/font]10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the L-rd thy G-d with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]10:28 And He said unto him , Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]10:29 But he, willing to justify himself (and still trying to trick.tempt Yeshua), said unto Yeshua, (for clarification) And who is my neighbour? [/font]10:30 And Yeshua answering said, A certain man.......

You know the story.....



Indeed - IF you can obey all of Torah without ever transgressing then you will have eternal life - barring that only the Blood of Moshiakh and our faith in it, as demonstrated by our consistant stirving to obey the mitzvot, can ensure us eternal life.


Yeshua answered this Temple Lawyer according to the intent of the question and the man's frame of reference. This answer by no means cancels out the myriad other scriptures that clearly state we are incapable of keeping Torah flawlessly and therefore need atonement.

[/font]

 

[yod]

wow that was a lonnnnngggg post Shamash.

While we will each be judged and rewarded according to our works they can never justify us.

Would you agree?