How are they saved if they never hear the gospel?

[Danthemailman]

I guess I'm not seeing that. The earlier verses are speaking of something done in the past, in the death and resurrection of Jesus; the latter one something ongoing in the individual.

I was simply pointing out that were sanctified (vs. 29) but no longer are sanctified and salvation is lost is in contradiction to sanctified once for all (vs. 10) and perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (vs. 14)

 

[Der Alte]

It's not about "gotcha" with me. It's about context and properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine, as I demonstrated in post #67. Hebrews 10:10 and Hebrews 10:14 are the Achilles heel for the losing salvation interpretation of Hebrews 10:29.

I agree one cannot lose their salvation the way I lost a bottle of vitamins in my home yesterday. I filled up my weekly meds container and later I still have not found the vitamins. Heb 10:10 and 10:14 looks like out-of-context proof texts to me. It can appear to prevent someone from "losing'" their salvation if one ignores other vss. in the same passage.

Hebrews 10:23​

(23) Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised; )​

Why the warning to "hold fast the profession of our faith" if there is no danger of not holding it fast?

Hebrews 10:29-31​

(29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?​

This vs. is not a warning to wishy-washy people who only appear to be Christian but real Christians who have been sanctified by the blood of the covenant.

(30) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.​

"The Lord shall judge His people" vs. 29 does not refer to non-Christians.

(31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Still talking to the same group vs. 29 and also see vss. 26-27.

Hebrews 10:26-27​

(26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,​

(27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.​

Who is the "we" in vs. 26? Not non-Christians but those who have "received the knowledge of the truth" vs. 26 and Those who have "counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing." vs. 29 What is their fate? "there remains no more sacrifice for sins," vs. 26 "fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." vs. 27.

 

[Danthemailman]

I agree one cannot lose their salvation the way I lost a bottle of vitamins in my home yesterday. I filled up my weekly meds container and later I still have not found the vitamins.

Please show me the words "lost salvation" in scripture. The Lord's saints are preserved forever. (Psalm 37:28) How long is forever? Genuine believers who truly believe the gospel (and do not believe in vain - 1 Corinthians 15:2) are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

Heb 10:10 and 10:14 looks like out-of-context proof texts to me. It can appear to prevent someone from "losing'" their salvation if one ignores other vss. in the same passage.

Out of context? These other verses in context do not negate sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all (vs. 10) or perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (vs. 14)

Hebrews 10:23​

(23) Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised; )​

Why the warning to "hold fast the profession of our faith" if there is no danger of not holding it fast?

Those who profess to have faith yet fail to hold fast demonstrate that their faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start. Elsewhere in Hebrews 3:8-10, we read - Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born-again Hebrews who have become partakers of Christ, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. What about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God yet begin with loud confidence and profession of faith and loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

Hebrews 10:29-31​

(29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?​

This vs. is not a warning to wishy-washy people who only appear to be Christian but real Christians who have been sanctified by the blood of the covenant.

I already thoroughly explained otherwise in post #67 and real Christians are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all/perfected for all time. (Hebrews 10:10,14) There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers mixed in with any large group of "professing" Christians.

(30) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.​

"The Lord shall judge His people" vs. 29 does not refer to non-Christians.

Quoted from Deuteronomy 32:35,36 and Psalm 135:4. His people being addressed here (Hebrews, Israelites) doesn't mean they were all saved. A good example of non-Christian Hebrews mixed in with genuine Christian Hebrews is found in Hebrews 4:1-3. "For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine Christians. *Notice that verses 2-3 make a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of unbelief.

(31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Still talking to the same group vs. 29 and also see vss. 26-27.

Yes, talking to Hebrew Christians with non-Christians mixed in just as we see throughout the rest of the book of Hebrews. (Hebrews 3:8-14; 4:1-3; 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:26-39; 12:15 etc..). Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

Hebrews 10:26-27​

(26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,​

(27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.​

Who is the "we" in vs. 26? Not non-Christians but those who have "received the knowledge of the truth" vs. 26 and Those who have "counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing." vs. 29 What is their fate? "there remains no more sacrifice for sins," vs. 26 "fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." vs. 27.

Again, In Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows ongoing, willful, continuous action. Lifestyle or bent of life. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9) *Hermeneutics.

Verse 26 says received the "knowledge" of the truth, which does not necessarily mean they all embraced the truth. Having the knowledge of truth does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. Judas Iscariot (who was never saved, but was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) is a good example of such a person. In regard to verse 29, as I already thoroughly explained in post #67, after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a "professing" believer in this community of Hebrew believers, but later renounces his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received and trampling underfoot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with these Hebrew believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

Hebrews 10:39 settles the issue for me. The writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to make believers/nominal Christians, not saved people: But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. *See the distinction? Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

 

[RileyG]

God is entirely sovereign and can save anyone he chooses....but no one is saved because of their works

 

[Der Alte]

Please show me the words "lost salvation" in scripture. The Lord's saints are preserved forever. (Psalm 37:28) How long is forever? Genuine believers who truly believe the gospel (and do not believe in vain - 1 Corinthians 15:2) are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)


Out of context? These other verses in context do not negate sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all (vs. 10) or perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (vs. 14)


Those who profess to have faith yet fail to hold fast demonstrate that their faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start. Elsewhere in Hebrews 3:8-10, we read - Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born-again Hebrews who have become partakers of Christ, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. What about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God yet begin with loud confidence and profession of faith and loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.


I already thoroughly explained otherwise in post #67 and real Christians are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all/perfected for all time. (Hebrews 10:10,14) There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers mixed in with any large group of "professing" Christians.


Quoted from Deuteronomy 32:35,36 and Psalm 135:4. His people being addressed here (Hebrews, Israelites) doesn't mean they were all saved. A good example of non-Christian Hebrews mixed in with genuine Christian Hebrews is found in Hebrews 4:1-3. "For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine Christians. *Notice that verses 2-3 make a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of unbelief.


Yes, talking to Hebrew Christians with non-Christians mixed in just as we see throughout the rest of the book of Hebrews. (Hebrews 3:8-14; 4:1-3; 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:26-39; 12:15 etc..). Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.


Again, In Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows ongoing, willful, continuous action. Lifestyle or bent of life. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9) *Hermeneutics.

Verse 26 says received the "knowledge" of the truth, which does not necessarily mean they all embraced the truth. Having the knowledge of truth does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. Judas Iscariot (who was never saved, but was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) is a good example of such a person. In regard to verse 29, as I already thoroughly explained in post #67, after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a "professing" believer in this community of Hebrew believers, but later renounces his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received and trampling underfoot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with these Hebrew believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

Hebrews 10:39 settles the issue for me. The writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to make believers/nominal Christians, not saved people: But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. *See the distinction? Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

Sorry amigo. This exchange is over. I read ALL the vss. not just the vss. which support some assumptions/presuppositions. I learned to read both Hebrew and Greek about 4 decades ago and English about 3 decades before that and I understand them all without any help from people I don't know. Some folks can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective vss. out-of-context.

 

[Derf]

I was simply pointing out that were sanctified (vs. 29) but no longer are sanctified and salvation is lost is in contradiction to sanctified once for all (vs. 10) and perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (vs. 14)

When did Christ perfect them? If at His death and resurrection, then it isn't a OSAS verse, because we who didn't exist back then couldn't have been perfected back then, unless we are perfected "in Christ", and then we must remain in Christ to stay perfected. If instead, we decide we can be just as saved by doing some list of things, we are no longer believing in Christ for our salvation, which is a false gospel with no saving power.

 

[Danthemailman]

When did Christ perfect them? If at His death and resurrection, then it isn't a OSAS verse, because we who didn't exist back then couldn't have been perfected back then, unless we are perfected "in Christ", and then we must remain in Christ to stay perfected. If instead, we decide we can be just as saved by doing some list of things, we are no longer believing in Christ for our salvation, which is a false gospel with no saving power.

Christ perfected them the moment they placed their faith in Him for salvation, just as we see elsewhere in scripture. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

Being perfected once for all/forever is not temporary, but permanent. Hebrews 10:10 - By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews 10:14 - For by one offering he hath perfected for all time/forever those who are sanctified. This does pertain to OSAS as once for all/forever is not temporary.

The Greek word for “abide” is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. Those who fail to remain (like Judas Iscariot) demonstrate a cosmic connection instead of a spiritual and vital one.

See commentary on John 15:2 below.

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

John 15, Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament is a rich resource for understanding Scripture, delving into original language and cultural nuances.

www.studylight.org

To no longer believe in Christ demonstrates that such a person believed in vain. (1 Corinthians 15:1-2) To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrate that they believed in vain (did not truly believe in the first place).

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Salvation obtained and/or maintained by works is a false gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)

 

[Derf]

Christ perfected them the moment they placed their faith in Him for salvation, just as we see elsewhere in scripture. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

Being perfected once for all/forever is not temporary, but permanent. Hebrews 10:10 - By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews 10:14 - For by one offering he hath perfected for all time/forever those who are sanctified. This does pertain to OSAS as once for all/forever is not temporary.

The context demonstrated that it's the sacrifice that is once for all, not the belief in it.

The Greek word for “abide” is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. Those who fail to remain (like Judas Iscariot) demonstrate a cosmic connection instead of a spiritual and vital one.

I don't know what a cosmic connection is.

See commentary on John 15:2 below.

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

John 15, Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament is a rich resource for understanding Scripture, delving into original language and cultural nuances.

www.studylight.org

To no longer believe in Christ demonstrates that such a person believed in vain.

This is a patently false use of the scripture you quote below. If there's no resurrection, the faith is vain because, no matter how good and true your faith us, it won't save you--because resurrection is what the salvation is all about.

(1 Corinthians 15:1-2) To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrate that they believed in vain (did not truly believe in the first place).

If people stop believing, then they didn't "believe in vain", they just didn't continue to believe. "In vain" doesn't mean the belief stopped, but that it wasn't effective, as you point out in your definition.

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Salvation obtained and/or maintained by works is a false gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)

Salvation that continues despite no more belief seems to run counter to what you've quoted here.

 

[Danthemailman]

The context demonstrated that it's the sacrifice that is once for all, not the belief in it.

We already know that Christ entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption (Hebrews 9:12) and that Christ has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Yet Hebrews 10:10 clearly states - we have been sanctified/made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all and Hebrews 10:14 clearly states - For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified. So, those who have been sanctified/made holy are perfected forever/once for all.

At the moment of salvation/having been justified by faith (Romans 5:1) we are sanctified/set apart/made holy (Acts 26:18) in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

I don't know what a cosmic connection is.

Obviously, it falls short of a spiritual and vital connection needed to remain in the vine and bear (good) fruit. It takes a good tree to bear good fruit. (Matthew 7:17) In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit. In John 15:3, we read - You are already clean (speaking to his disciples, all except Judas Iscariot - John 13:10-11) because of the word which I have spoken to you. The 11 remaining disciples were clean. Was Judas Iscariot clean? No. Was he cut off? Yes. Was he ever saved in the first place? No. (John 6:64-71)

This is a patently false use of the scripture you quote below. If there's no resurrection, the faith is vain because, no matter how good and true your faith us, it won't save you--because resurrection is what the salvation is all about.

I understand that belief in the resurrection of Christ is vital to salvation. I was simply making a point about believing in vain. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. In 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, Paul clearly stated - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, IF you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. Here we have those who truly believed the gospel and held fast and those who have not held fast because their belief in the gospel was never firmly rooted and established from the start. Hence, believed in vain.

If people stop believing, then they didn't "believe in vain", they just didn't continue to believe. "In vain" doesn't mean the belief stopped, but that it wasn't effective, as you point out in your definition.

People don't stop believing the gospel after truly believing and they are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.. (Ephesians 1:13-14) Does that sound like stop believing, become unsealed and lose salvation to you? Those who don't continue to believe demonstrate a defective, vain belief that was never genuine belief in the gospel to begin with, which explains why it wasn't effective. There are many "nominal" Christians who have "mental assent" belief (head knowledge) but lack saving belief in Christ which is from the heart. (Romans 10:8-10)

Salvation that continues despite no more belief seems to run counter to what you've quoted here.

Salvation continues for those who truly believe in the first place and not for those who have believed in vain. (1 Corinthians 15:1-2) Saving belief in Christ continues (Mark 4:20; Luke 8:15) and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit, lacks moisture and withers away. (Mark 4:6; Luke 8:6; Luke 8:13) All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful.

 

[Derf]

We already know that Christ entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption (Hebrews 9:12) and that Christ has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Yet Hebrews 10:10 clearly states - we have been sanctified/made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all and Hebrews 10:14 clearly states - For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified. So, those who have been sanctified/made holy are perfected forever/once for all.

At the moment of salvation/having been justified by faith (Romans 5:1) we are sanctified/set apart/made holy (Acts 26:18) in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

So could he use a past tense for a future certainty in other passages, like Heb 10, right?

Obviously, it falls short of a spiritual and vital connection needed to remain in the vine and bear (good) fruit. It takes a good tree to bear good fruit. (Matthew 7:17) In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit. In John 15:3, we read - You are already clean (speaking to his disciples, all except Judas Iscariot - John 13:10-11) because of the word which I have spoken to you. The 11 remaining disciples were clean. Was Judas Iscariot clean? No. Was he cut off? Yes. Was he ever saved in the first place? No. (John 6:64-71)


I understand that belief in the resurrection of Christ is vital to salvation. I was simply making a point about believing in vain. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. In 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, Paul clearly stated - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, IF you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. Here we have those who truly believed the gospel and held fast and those who have not held fast because their belief in the gospel was never firmly rooted and established from the start.

That's NOT what we have in 1 Cor 15:1-2, no matter how much you desire it to be so. The chapter, from the very first verse, is talking about whether there is such a thing as resurrection from the dead. And for those who don't believe there is, Paul takes great pains to explain to them that they are without hope (their "faith is vain") without the resurrection.

Hence, believed in vain.

Which is not what you keep saying the passage means.

People don't stop believing the gospel after truly believing and they are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.. (Ephesians 1:13-14) Does that sound like stop believing, become unsealed and lose salvation to you? Those who don't continue to believe demonstrate a defective, vain belief that was never genuine belief in the gospel to begin with, which explains why it wasn't effective. There are many "nominal" Christians who have "mental assent" belief (head knowledge) but lack saving belief in Christ which is from the heart. (Romans 10:8-10)

That may be so, but it is a nonsequitor about believing in vain.

Salvation continues for those who truly believe in the first place and not for those who have believed in vain. (1 Corinthians 15:1-2)

If there's no resurrection, even the most sincere of believers has believed in vain--that was Paul's message, no matter hiw many times you repeat your false use of the passage.

Saving belief in Christ continues (Mark 4:20; Luke 8:15) and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit, lacks moisture and withers away. (Mark 4:6; Luke 8:6; Luke 8:13) All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful.

So what you have done is not to assure believers that they are forever saved, but to give them doubts as to whether their belief is good enough to merit salvation. Why is that helpful? Doesn't that put salvation back into the world category?

And I thought the whole idea of OSAS was to put a Christian's mind at ease. You've help to move me away from the OSAS position.

 

[Danthemailman]

So could he use a past tense for a future certainty in other passages, like Heb 10, right?

Is that supposed to be a rhetorical question?

That's NOT what we have in 1 Cor 15:1-2, no matter how much you desire it to be so. The chapter, from the very first verse, is talking about whether there is such a thing as resurrection from the dead. And for those who don't believe there is, Paul takes great pains to explain to them that they are without hope (their "faith is vain") without the resurrection.

Although it's true the context is resurrection, faith that is in vain was never saving faith in the gospel to begin with no matter how much you desire it to be so. Holding fast to the gospel that Paul preached is in contrast with believing in vain - without cause or without effect, to no purpose. Paul holds this peril over those who deny the resurrection and even points out that if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is our faith to further emphasis the importance of the resurrection of Christ from the dead. (vs. 12-14)

Any type of belief/faith that falls short of trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the all-sufficient means of our salvation would be in vain. Some people were saying there is no resurrection of the dead, yet Paul clearly taught a resurrected Christ.

Christ was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures. (vs. 4)
How can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? (vs. 12)
We have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. (vs. 15)
Christ has indeed been raised from the dead. (vs. 20)

Which is not what you keep saying the passage means.

Not believing in the resurrection of the dead demonstrates a faith that is not firmly rooted and established in the gospel that Paul preached and is to believe in vain.

That may be so, but it is a nonsequitor about believing in vain.

So according to you, mere "mental assent" belief that falls short of saving belief in Christ is not believing in vain as well? In regard to 1 Corinthians 15:2, the context is resurrection.

If there's no resurrection, even the most sincere of believers has believed in vain--that was Paul's message, no matter hiw many times you repeat your false use of the passage.

I agree with Paul that if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is our faith, but of course, that is not the case and Christ has in fact been raised from the dead.

So what you have done is not to assure believers that they are forever saved, but to give them doubts as to whether their belief is good enough to merit salvation.

Straw man argument. I teach and believe in assurance of eternal salvation and it's not about our belief being "good enough" or meriting salvation. We could never merit the gift of salvation/eternal life (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) and it's about the OBJECT of our belief (death, burial resurrection of Christ) that makes it effective. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:3,4)

Why is that helpful? Doesn't that put salvation back into the world category?

Not sure what your point is here.

And I thought the whole idea of OSAS was to put a Christian's mind at ease.

Fear and bondage to IN-security is no way to live the Christian life.

You've help to move me away from the OSAS position.

You did not need my help. You were already there. Prior to my conversion several years ago I rejected OSAS because I was deceived into believing that salvation was obtained and maintained by works and I had absolutely no assurance of salvation and was miserable! My assurance of salvation rests in Christ (1 John 5:11-13) and certainly not in works/performance/self.

I have come to discover that ALL false religions and cults which promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS (including the false religion that I was born and raised in) which certainly is a major red flag for me.

 

[Derf]

Is that supposed to be a rhetorical question?


Although it's true the context is resurrection, faith that is in vain was never saving faith in the gospel to begin with no matter how much you desire it to be so. Holding fast to the gospel that Paul preached is in contrast with believing in vain - without cause or without effect, to no purpose. Paul holds this peril over those who deny the resurrection and even points out that if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is our faith to further emphasis the importance of the resurrection of Christ from the dead. (vs. 12-14)

Any type of belief/faith that falls short of trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the all-sufficient means of our salvation would be in vain. Some people were saying there is no resurrection of the dead, yet Paul clearly taught a resurrected Christ.

Christ was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures. (vs. 4)
How can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? (vs. 12)
We have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. (vs. 15)
Christ has indeed been raised from the dead. (vs. 20)


Not believing in the resurrection of the dead demonstrates a faith that is not firmly rooted and established in the gospel that Paul preached and is to believe in vain.


So according to you, mere "mental assent" belief that falls short of saving belief in Christ is not believing in vain as well? In regard to 1 Corinthians 15:2, the context is resurrection.


I agree with Paul that if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is our faith, but of course, that is not the case and Christ has in fact been raised from the dead.

Perfect faith is what's on the table in 1 Cor 15. As well as perfect preaching (vs 4) and even perfect grace from God (vs 10). All those are vain if Christ didn't rise from the dead. So it hurts your argument to try to use it to say that a faulty or deficient faith is what makes it vain. That doesnt mean your OSAS argument is false, it just means you are using the wrong passage for support. Dont use that passage anymore; it confuses the issue.

Straw man argument. I teach and believe in assurance of eternal salvation and it's not about our belief being "good enough" or meriting salvation.

Only if you don't use 1 Cor 15 for support.

We could never merit the gift of salvation/eternal life (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

True

and it's about the OBJECT of our belief (death, burial resurrection of Christ) that makes it effective. (Romans 1:16;

True.

1 Corinthians 15:3,4)

False.

Not sure what your point is here.

"World" was supposed to be "works".

Fear and bondage to IN-security is no way to live the Christian life.

True

You did not need my help. You were already there.

Possibly true. What i see the scriptures saying is that if one stops believing in Christ and His atoning work on the cross for salvation (best defined as resurrection from the dead forever), you aren't saved.

Prior to my conversion several years ago I rejected OSAS because I was deceived into believing that salvation was obtained and maintained by works and I had absolutely no assurance of salvation and was miserable! My assurance of salvation rests in Christ (1 John 5:11-13) and certainly not in works/performance/self.

Yes, but also in your faith. To say there is a kind of faith that is vain is to tell people that it IS about works/performance/self. Your message is blurry here.

I have come to discover that ALL false religions and cults which promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS (including the false religion that I was born and raised in) which certainly is a major red flag for me.

That's a logical fallacy, something like guilt by association. You shouldn't have a personal red flag that's based on a personal logical fallacy.

 

[Danthemailman]

Perfect faith is what's on the table in 1 Cor 15. As well as perfect preaching (vs 4) and even perfect grace from God (vs 10). All those are vain if Christ didn't rise from the dead. So it hurts your argument to try to use it to say that a faulty or deficient faith is what makes it vain. That doesnt mean your OSAS argument is false, it just means you are using the wrong passage for support. Dont use that passage anymore; it confuses the issue.

Only if you don't use 1 Cor 15 for support.

True

True.

False.

"World" was supposed to be "works".

True

Possibly true. What i see the scriptures saying is that if one stops believing in Christ and His atoning work on the cross for salvation (best defined as resurrection from the dead forever), you aren't saved.

Yes, but also in your faith. To say there is a kind of faith that is vain is to tell people that it IS about works/performance/self. Your message is blurry here.

That's a logical fallacy, something like guilt by association. You shouldn't have a personal red flag that's based on a personal logical fallacy.

I believe that you and I are about as close as we are ever going to get to a full agreement. No need in running it in the ground.

Moving on. Take care and God bless you.

 

[Derf]

I believe that you and I are about as close as we are ever going to get to a full agreement. No need in running it in the ground.

Moving on. Take care and God bless you.

Ok. But it's sad we can't actually come to agreement with brothers in Christ. Surely if one of us is wrong, it is a good thing to find out. And shouldn't it be from communication with a brother than by later judgment by Christ?

 

[Danthemailman]

Ok. But it's sad we can't actually come to agreement with brothers in Christ. Surely if one of us is wrong, it is a good thing to find out. And shouldn't it be from communication with a brother than by later judgment by Christ?

The debate between OSAS and NOSAS has been going on since way before you or I were born and will continue to go on and it's just one of those topics that not all Christians will come to an agreement on. Our salvation does not depend on whether or not we hold to either one of those views but whether or not we have placed our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Acts 26:18; Romans 4:5,6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9) Sadly, many people who "profess" to be Christians are merely "nominal" Christians who trust in works for salvation and not in Christ alone. Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost. (John 3:18; 10:9; 14:6; Acts 4:12; Acts 16:31)

 

[Douglas Brian McIntire]

I'm starting with the assumption that there is a way those who haven't heard the gospel CAN be saved. An additional assumption that's implied is eternal lake of fire for those not in the book of life.

I'll give my answer in a following post, but feel free to offer solutions, preferably with biblical support.

Thanks to @bbbbbbb for the suggestion.

THE ADOPTION OF SONS...

22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

This "Tree of Life" is Jesus.

There is only ONE GOOD TREE...

39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch? 40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master. 41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye. 43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

ONLY ONE GOOD TREE...

46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? 47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

THE WISE...
48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

THE FOOLISH...
49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great. (Luke 6)

THE ONLY PRESEDTINATION...

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Acts 17)

DESERVESA REPEAT: 27 "That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him"

DERSERVESA REPEAT: “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”

God predestined the "Adoption." He made what was not His, His...

11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1)

God has chosen... Things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are...

27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.” 1 Cor 1

God chooses holy behaviors and NOT THE FALLEN PERSON, "4 just as He chose us [to be Obedient] in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love," (Ephesians 1)

THIS IS GOD'S GRACE...

13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. (2 CORINTHIANS 5)

DESERVES A REPEAT: "That if One died for all, then all died; He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again."

THIS IS GOD'S FREE GIFT OF GRACE...

God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ — by grace you have been saved. (EPHESIANS 2)

DESERVES A REPEAT: "Even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ"

THIS IS GOD'S FREE GIFT OF GRACE...

10 For the death that Jesus died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. (ROMANS 6)

DESERVES A REPEAT: "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace."

Life in Jesus Christ is a Choice, and those who don't choose Christ, God's wrath remains on them (John 3:35-36)

God calls out to everyone to repent.

God’s Righteousness Through Faith...

21 The righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3)

DESERVES A REPEAT: "to all and on all who believe"

THIS IS God's GRACE...

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” (JOHN 3)

DESERVES A REPEAT; GOD'S FREE GIFT OF GRACE: "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. (TITUS 2)

34 For He [Jesus] whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (JOHN 3)

Do you "Believe the Son?"

34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— 37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.” (Acts 10)

DESERVES A REPEAT: "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him," and "The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all—

Jesus Promises Another Helper

15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. (John 14)

 

[Douglas Brian McIntire]

So could he use a past tense for a future certainty in other passages, like Heb 10, right?

That's NOT what we have in 1 Cor 15:1-2, no matter how much you desire it to be so. The chapter, from the very first verse, is talking about whether there is such a thing as resurrection from the dead. And for those who don't believe there is, Paul takes great pains to explain to them that they are without hope (their "faith is vain") without the resurrection.

Which is not what you keep saying the passage means.

That may be so, but it is a nonsequitor about believing in vain.

If there's no resurrection, even the most sincere of believers has believed in vain--that was Paul's message, no matter hiw many times you repeat your false use of the passage.


So what you have done is not to assure believers that they are forever saved, but to give them doubts as to whether their belief is good enough to merit salvation. Why is that helpful? Doesn't that put salvation back into the world category?

And I thought the whole idea of OSAS was to put a Christian's mind at ease. You've help to move me away from the OSAS position.

I have never met a single person who "believed" Jesus...

Jesus said,
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;v17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. (John 14)

THE ADOPTION OF SONS...

22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

This "Tree of Life" is Jesus.

There is only ONE GOOD TREE...

39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch? 40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master. 41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye. 43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

ONLY ONE GOOD TREE...

46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? 47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

THE WISE...
48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

THE FOOLISH...
49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great. (Luke 6)

THE ONLY PRESEDTINATION...

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Acts 17)

DESERVESA REPEAT: 27 "That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him"

DERSERVESA REPEAT: “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”

God predestined the "Adoption." He made what was not His, His...

11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1)

God has chosen... Things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are...

27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.” 1 Cor 1

God chooses holy behaviors and NOT THE FALLEN PERSON, "4 just as He chose us [to be Obedient] in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love," (Ephesians 1)

THIS IS GOD'S GRACE...

13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. (2 CORINTHIANS 5)

DESERVES A REPEAT: "That if One died for all, then all died; He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again."

THIS IS GOD'S FREE GIFT OF GRACE...

God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ — by grace you have been saved. (EPHESIANS 2)

DESERVES A REPEAT: "Even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ"

THIS IS GOD'S FREE GIFT OF GRACE...

10 For the death that Jesus died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. (ROMANS 6)

DESERVES A REPEAT: "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace."

Life in Jesus Christ is a Choice, and those who don't choose Christ, God's wrath remains on them (John 3:35-36)

God calls out to everyone to repent.

God’s Righteousness Through Faith...

21 The righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3)

DESERVES A REPEAT: "to all and on all who believe"

THIS IS God's GRACE...

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” (JOHN 3)

DESERVES A REPEAT; GOD'S FREE GIFT OF GRACE: "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. (TITUS 2)

34 For He [Jesus] whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (JOHN 3)

Do you "Believe the Son?"

34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— 37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.” (Acts 10)

DESERVES A REPEAT: "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him," and "The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all—

Jesus Promises Another Helper

15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. (John 14)

 

[Derf]

I have never met a single person who "believed" Jesus...

Jesus said,
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;v17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. (John 14)

THE ADOPTION OF SONS...

22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

This "Tree of Life" is Jesus.

There is only ONE GOOD TREE...

39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch? 40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master. 41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye. 43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

ONLY ONE GOOD TREE...

46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? 47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

THE WISE...
48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

THE FOOLISH...
49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great. (Luke 6)

THE ONLY PRESEDTINATION...

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Acts 17)

DESERVESA REPEAT: 27 "That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him"

DERSERVESA REPEAT: “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”

God predestined the "Adoption." He made what was not His, His...

11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1)

God has chosen... Things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are...

27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.” 1 Cor 1

God chooses holy behaviors and NOT THE FALLEN PERSON, "4 just as He chose us [to be Obedient] in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love," (Ephesians 1)

THIS IS GOD'S GRACE...

13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. (2 CORINTHIANS 5)

DESERVES A REPEAT: "That if One died for all, then all died; He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again."

THIS IS GOD'S FREE GIFT OF GRACE...

God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ — by grace you have been saved. (EPHESIANS 2)

DESERVES A REPEAT: "Even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ"

THIS IS GOD'S FREE GIFT OF GRACE...

10 For the death that Jesus died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. (ROMANS 6)

DESERVES A REPEAT: "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace."

Life in Jesus Christ is a Choice, and those who don't choose Christ, God's wrath remains on them (John 3:35-36)

God calls out to everyone to repent.

God’s Righteousness Through Faith...

21 The righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3)

DESERVES A REPEAT: "to all and on all who believe"

THIS IS God's GRACE...

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” (JOHN 3)

DESERVES A REPEAT; GOD'S FREE GIFT OF GRACE: "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. (TITUS 2)

34 For He [Jesus] whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (JOHN 3)

Do you "Believe the Son?"

34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— 37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.” (Acts 10)

DESERVES A REPEAT: "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him," and "The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all—

Jesus Promises Another Helper

15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. (John 14)

Wow! That was a lot of material for just 2 posts. Can you boil it down to a couple of sentences? What are you trying to say? That those who never hear the good news will be saved because of (but not by) their good works?

 

[Douglas Brian McIntire]

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that everyone (Whosoever they are) has been given by the grace of God the opportunity to be either for God or against God through believing the Son, Jesus. And those who don't believe the Son and don't repent by turning to the Son and "believe", God's Wrath remains on them. Jesus fixed what Adam broke (1 Corinthians 15)

Read until you want to stop...

What most Christians don't believe is that Jesus' death and resurrection provided EVERYONE the opportunity, no matter who you are, the ability (Grace: unmerited favor) to live for God (To either be for God or against God), and to be for God all you have to do is abide in Jesus and in His word...

13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. (2 Corinthians 5)

And this free gift of grace is waiting for WHOSOEVER wants it because...

God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. (1 Corinthians 1)

DESERVES A REPEAT: "Yea, and things which are not, to bring to naught things that are"

This is how it works: Either you are for God or against God: If a person doesn't remain in Jesus and His word enduring to the end, they are cut off...


Jesus said,
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. (John 15)

You can stop reading there if you like, but those who cannot accept the Word of Truth in it's entirety, they have not accepted it at all. The 1st Century Church accepted the Word of God that the Apostles Preached, even though unbelievers crept into the Church.

More than that, being haughty (arrogant or proud)...

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (Romans 11)

DESERVES A REPEAT: Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. (Acts 10)

DESEERVES A REPEAT BECAUSE JESUS PROVIDED THIS WAY WHEREAS NO CAN BOAST: "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ—by grace ye are saved

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2)

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6)

 

[Derf]

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that everyone (Whosoever they are) has been given by the grace of God the opportunity to be either for God or against God through believing the Son, Jesus. And those who don't believe the Son and don't repent by turning to the Son and "believe", God's Wrath remains on them. Jesus fixed what Adam broke (1 Corinthians 15)

Read until you want to stop...

What most Christians don't believe is that Jesus' death and resurrection provided EVERYONE the opportunity, no matter who you are, the ability (Grace: unmerited favor) to live for God (To either be for God or against God), and to be for God all you have to do is abide in Jesus and in His word...

13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. (2 Corinthians 5)

And this free gift of grace is waiting for WHOSOEVER wants it because...

God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. (1 Corinthians 1)

DESERVES A REPEAT: "Yea, and things which are not, to bring to naught things that are"

This is how it works: Either you are for God or against God: If a person doesn't remain in Jesus and His word enduring to the end, they are cut off...


Jesus said,
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. (John 15)

You can stop reading there if you like, but those who cannot accept the Word of Truth in it's entirety, they have not accepted it at all. The 1st Century Church accepted the Word of God that the Apostles Preached, even though unbelievers crept into the Church.

More than that, being haughty (arrogant or proud)...

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (Romans 11)

DESERVES A REPEAT: Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. (Acts 10)

DESEERVES A REPEAT BECAUSE JESUS PROVIDED THIS WAY WHEREAS NO CAN BOAST: "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ—by grace ye are saved

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2)

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6)

All of that seems to presume a knowledge of Jesus prior to death. What about those who never hear about Jesus? Are they all doomed to hell forever?