How are they saved if they never hear the gospel?

[rturner76]

He can do whatever He wants as long as it aligns with His character. He can't lie, for instance. If the lake of fire is vengeance for the things angels and mankind has done against Him and His children, and He doesn't take the vengeance He's promised, then hasn't He lied?

[Rom 12:19 KJV] Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
[2Th 1:8 KJV] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[Heb 10:30 KJV] For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[Rev 6:10 KJV] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

It says vengeance is his but does it say God is required to take vengeance on all who have sinned?

 

[Derf]

It says vengeance is his but does it say God is required to take vengeance on all who have sinned?

Good answer. God also has a sense of justice. So most would think He requires Himself to take vengeance.

 

[Derf]

It says vengeance is his but does it say God is required to take vengeance on all who have sinned?

Plus, He said "I will repay." That's justice speaking.

 

[ViaCrucis]

From the Lutheran POV we say we know what God's Ordered Means are, Scripture tells us that God saves us through faith which He works and creates in us through the Means of Grace, Word and Sacrament. So that through the preaching of the Gospel, through Baptism, through the Lord's Supper God declares us forgiven on Christ's account, God freely justifies us through faith by imputing to us the righteousness of Jesus Christ. So that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone on Christ's account alone.

This leaves open a ton of questions for which we have no answers: What about children who die in the womb, or are stillborn, or unbaptized children who die, or people who never heard the Gospel, etc.

We don't have an answer to this. These questions touch upon God's Absolute Means, His Absolute Power. Speculation will always just be speculation, but Scripture bears witness to God's loving goodness, His grace, the super abundance of kindness which He has for us sinners in Christ. So, for example, it is written that God is "the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe".

We also can know that since salvation is found in no one else other than Christ, that whoever is saved is saved because of Christ.

So what about those who have not heard? We don't know and we can't say--but we do know that God is merciful, kind, just, and in all ways good. And so He who sent His Son to die for the world loves the world which He intends to save.

We know God's Ordered Means, but we don't know how, where, and in what ways God's Absolute Means are. If God ordains that this person over there who has never heard the name of Christ is, nevertheless, saved; it is not because they are saved in spite of Christ but because of Christ. However, whenever, wherever, and whyever is God's purview and not ours.

We preach Christ crucified and raised from the dead, in who alone and in whose name alone is salvation. We know what God has said and ordered His Church to do in order to bear the word of that salvation to the world. But we don't get to tell God that He is limited by His own Means. If God says, "I will save this person" then glory be to God, God's will be done.

This should fill us with hope, but not complacence. We do not get to say, "Since God can save everyone He so wills, then the preaching of the Gospel and administering of the Sacraments is unnecessary". God, by His absolute power and will made fire to not harm the companions of Daniel in the fiery furnace; that does not mean we can then say, "fire does not burn, so I should touch an open flame with my bare skin" because the heat of the fire will burn you--that's what fire does. The ordered power of God remains the ordered power of God even when His absolute power can do whatever He so wills.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Derf]

From the Lutheran POV we say we know what God's Ordered Means are, Scripture tells us that God saves us through faith which He works and creates in us through the Means of Grace, Word and Sacrament. So that through the preaching of the Gospel, through Baptism, through the Lord's Supper God declares us forgiven on Christ's account, God freely justifies us through faith by imputing to us the righteousness of Jesus Christ. So that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone on Christ's account alone.

This leaves open a ton of questions for which we have no answers: What about children who die in the womb, or are stillborn, or unbaptized children who die, or people who never heard the Gospel, etc.

We don't have an answer to this. These questions touch upon God's Absolute Means, His Absolute Power. Speculation will always just be speculation, but Scripture bears witness to God's loving goodness, His grace, the super abundance of kindness which He has for us sinners in Christ. So, for example, it is written that God is "the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe".

We also can know that since salvation is found in no one else other than Christ, that whoever is saved is saved because of Christ.

So what about those who have not heard? We don't know and we can't say--but we do know that God is merciful, kind, just, and in all ways good. And so He who sent His Son to die for the world loves the world which He intends to save.

We know God's Ordered Means, but we don't know how, where, and in what ways God's Absolute Means are. If God ordains that this person over there who has never heard the name of Christ is, nevertheless, saved; it is not because they are saved in spite of Christ but because of Christ. However, whenever, wherever, and whyever is God's purview and not ours.

We preach Christ crucified and raised from the dead, in who alone and in whose name alone is salvation. We know what God has said and ordered His Church to do in order to bear the word of that salvation to the world. But we don't get to tell God that He is limited by His own Means. If God says, "I will save this person" then glory be to God, God's will be done.

This should fill us with hope, but not complacence. We do not get to say, "Since God can save everyone He so wills, then the preaching of the Gospel and administering of the Sacraments is unnecessary". God, by His absolute power and will made fire to not harm the companions of Daniel in the fiery furnace; that does not mean we can then say, "fire does not burn, so I should touch an open flame with my bare skin" because the heat of the fire will burn you--that's what fire does. The ordered power of God remains the ordered power of God even when His absolute power can do whatever He so wills.

-CryptoLutheran

The other side of this question is about what God is looking for in His eternal kingdom. If He invites all in without regard to past behavior, but with caveats about how all His subjects will behave henceforth, what happens to those who don't agree?

Which makes me think those who would disagree at some point in the future have somehow made it plain to Him by how they behaved in their mortal life...except those infants. Do they retain their innocence into heaven?

I think God designed us with free will, that has to be tamed/shaped to be completely obedient for life in eternity. Part of that is done by the sacrifice of Christ for our sins.

But if we are to have free will in heaven without sin, does that mean we are free to leave, but never do? And is He free to banish us if we rebel later on, but He never has to?

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

From the Lutheran POV we say we know what God's Ordered Means are, Scripture tells us that God saves us through faith which He works and creates in us through the Means of Grace, Word and Sacrament. So that through the preaching of the Gospel, through Baptism, through the Lord's Supper God declares us forgiven on Christ's account, God freely justifies us through faith by imputing to us the righteousness of Jesus Christ. So that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone on Christ's account alone.

This leaves open a ton of questions for which we have no answers: What about children who die in the womb, or are stillborn, or unbaptized children who die, or people who never heard the Gospel, etc.

We don't have an answer to this. These questions touch upon God's Absolute Means, His Absolute Power. Speculation will always just be speculation, but Scripture bears witness to God's loving goodness, His grace, the super abundance of kindness which He has for us sinners in Christ. So, for example, it is written that God is "the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe".

We also can know that since salvation is found in no one else other than Christ, that whoever is saved is saved because of Christ.

So what about those who have not heard? We don't know and we can't say--but we do know that God is merciful, kind, just, and in all ways good. And so He who sent His Son to die for the world loves the world which He intends to save.

We know God's Ordered Means, but we don't know how, where, and in what ways God's Absolute Means are. If God ordains that this person over there who has never heard the name of Christ is, nevertheless, saved; it is not because they are saved in spite of Christ but because of Christ. However, whenever, wherever, and whyever is God's purview and not ours.

We preach Christ crucified and raised from the dead, in who alone and in whose name alone is salvation. We know what God has said and ordered His Church to do in order to bear the word of that salvation to the world. But we don't get to tell God that He is limited by His own Means. If God says, "I will save this person" then glory be to God, God's will be done.

This should fill us with hope, but not complacence. We do not get to say, "Since God can save everyone He so wills, then the preaching of the Gospel and administering of the Sacraments is unnecessary". God, by His absolute power and will made fire to not harm the companions of Daniel in the fiery furnace; that does not mean we can then say, "fire does not burn, so I should touch an open flame with my bare skin" because the heat of the fire will burn you--that's what fire does. The ordered power of God remains the ordered power of God even when His absolute power can do whatever He so wills.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis,

A few years back, I came across an interesting article on another way to understand what happens to those who never heard the gospel and die.

Author is Peter Burfeind of the LCMS and is a frequent guest on Issues etc. The paper is entitled The Harrowing of Hell: Filling in the blanks.

The Harrowing of Hell: Filling in the Blanks [Select 1 File, the select the .pdf] Things get real interesting after p. 13

He makes the distinction between universal salvation and universal proclamation. Of course universal salvation is false but what about universal proclamation of the gospel even in Sheol of the OT. Believers were in Sheol. When Jesus preached to those in prison, did he only preach law? Or is it possible he preached gospel to those who never heard it before. This is not a "second chance" at salvation theology...because those who never heard the gospel never had a "first chance" to reject it. Interesting theory.

I always enjoy reading your posts and consider you the best representative of Lutheranism on CF.

If you do read it, send me a note if you liked it. I never even thought anything like before. But as you wrote on this post my memory went back to Burfeind article.

 

[Derf]

ViaCrucis,

A few years back, I came across an interesting article on another way to understand what happens to those who never heard the gospel and die.

Author is Peter Burfeind of the LCMS and is a frequent guest on Issues etc. The paper is entitled The Harrowing of Hell: Filling in the blanks.

The Harrowing of Hell: Filling in the Blanks [Select 1 File, the select the .pdf] Things get real interesting after p. 13

He makes the distinction between universal salvation and universal proclamation. Of course universal salvation is false but what about universal proclamation of the gospel even in Sheol of the OT. Believers were in Sheol. When Jesus preached to those in prison, did he only preach law? Or is it possible he preached gospel to those who never heard it before. This is not a "second chance" at salvation theology...because those who never heard the gospel never had a "first chance" to reject it. Interesting theory.

I always enjoy reading your posts and consider you the best representative of Lutheranism on CF.

If you do read it, send me a note if you liked it. I never even thought anything like before. But as you wrote on this post my memory went back to Burfeind article.

I appreciate the distinction between second chance gospel and saving those who never heard.

My point was that it might come when the unsaved are judged after the resurrection.

 

[Dan Perez]

Perhaps, but it's not pertinent unless you're suggesting we can be saved without any grace at all.

And again, those are the things we will be judged by, but not necessarily the things we will be sentenced by.

Should anyone check the Greek text will see NOT of works ,means not of WORKS , WHY ?

The Greek word NOT / OV is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE and it means NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT EVERRRRRRRRRRRRR. PERIOD !!

dan p

 

[Derf]

Should anyone check the Greek text will see NOT of works ,means not of WORKS , WHY ?

The Greek word NOT / OV is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE and it means NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT EVERRRRRRRRRRRRR. PERIOD !!

dan p

What's your point with respect to this thread?

 

[Der Alte]

ViaCrucis,

A few years back, I came across an interesting article on another way to understand what happens to those who never heard the gospel and die.
Author is Peter Burfeind of the LCMS and is a frequent guest on Issues etc. The paper is entitled The Harrowing of Hell: Filling in the blanks.
The Harrowing of Hell: Filling in the Blanks [Select 1 File, the select the .pdf] Things get real interesting after p. 13
He makes the distinction between universal salvation and universal proclamation. Of course universal salvation is false but what about universal proclamation of the gospel even in Sheol of the OT. Believers were in Sheol. When Jesus preached to those in prison, did he only preach law? Or is it possible he preached gospel to those who never heard it before. This is not a "second chance" at salvation theology...because those who never heard the gospel never had a "first chance" to reject it. Interesting theory.
I always enjoy reading your posts and consider you the best representative of Lutheranism on CF.
If you do read it, send me a note if you liked it. I never even thought anything like before. But as you wrote on this post my memory went back to Burfeind article.

I think this is the pertinent vs.

1 Peter 3:19-20​

(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;​

(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

What was the purpose of this preaching? If it was for salvation, it was pretty much a failure only 8 souls were saved and they were alive when they were saved.
Harrowing of hell? AFAIK There ain't no such thing. Jesus proclaimed His earthly ministry in this vs.
Prison is never called Hell or the grave and Hell or the grave are never called prison anywhere in the N.T.
Luke 4:18

(18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,​

This does not mention preaching to spirits in Hell. There are no poor, brokenhearted, blind, captives, or bruised in hell or the grave only individual dead bodies.
The Greek word translated captives literally means prisoners of war. Souls in the grave or hell are not prisoners.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

This does not mention preaching to spirits in Hell.

I proposed this as a theory not fact as evidence in my post. IT IS THEORY. THEORY. THEORY. Please don't spass out here. Geez, just mellow out. The sky is not falling. Many here at CF can deal with theoretical issues.

 

[Der Alte]

I proposed this as a theory not fact as evidence in my post. IT IS THEORY. THEORY. THEORY. Please don't spass out here. Geez, just mellow out. The sky is not falling. Many here at CF can deal with theoretical issues. But maybe you can't. But that doesn't mean you can come in go gang bangster nuts!
I Peter 3: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
The Scripture clearly state Jesus DID preach to the spirits in prison. Do you have problems with comprehension skills?
I will NOT respond to any statement you make, if you keep up this level of ramp. You will be blocked and reported.
And I am asking the CF community to report him if he seems to go off kilter.

I was not aware that I "spazzed out" or "go[ne] gang banster nuts." I merely stated what I understand from the scripture I quoted. Maybe I'm not the one who did all that. I thought I explained the "prison" reference.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

I was not aware that I "spazzed out" or "go[ne] gang banster nuts." I merely stated what I understand from the scripture I quoted. Maybe I'm not the one who did all that. I thought I explained the "prison" reference.

I was too forceful. I apologize.

 

[Der Alte]

I was too forceful. I apologize.

No harm, no foul.

 

[Derf]

I've been wondering about the "book of life"...the story I was always told was that it is the names of believers known to God from the foundation of the world. This book, if that's what it is, would have the people in it that haven't heard the gospel, but that will be saved.
Revelation 20:15 KJV — And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This book appears to be the instrument for deciding whether a person enters into life or is thrown into the lake if fire, i.e., the second death.

Despite one verse that makes it sound like the book was written before the world began and can't be changed...

Revelation 17:8 KJV — The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

...many verses seem to indicate that names can be blotted out, like this one:
Revelation 3:5 KJV — He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Here's what I think is going on. The concept is that the book of life are those who will go on living. Those who are blotted out are the ones who will die. Rev 20 is about 2 resurrections, one at the beginning and one at the end of the 1000 years. The first is believers, or maybe a subset of believers (I'll explain another time), and they don't have to worry about the second death (lake of fire)
Revelation 20:6 KJV — Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power...

But the second resurrection includes some who will be saved and some who won't. It seems like, as with any proper judgment, the verdict isn't predetermined, but the case must be presented. That's all the deeds from the other books. Then a declaration of truth is made, once guilt is firmly established, saying that all have been resurrected by the grace of God through the blood of Christ.

At this time, all are in the book of life that have been resurrected. Then those who reject the gospel are blotted out and thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[RDKirk]

So we get to speculate.

Unless the speculation leads to "no need to evangelize," which would be willful disobedience.

 

[RDKirk]

This appears to be true, as belief requires knowledge. But we recognize that infants are not all going to be condemned to hell, so the level of knowledge is either not very high in the first place, or a person's knowledge is allowed to change after the resurrection.

It seems very clear to me that God's judgment takes into consideration a person's knowledge of Him and how that person responded to that knowledge.

For instance, God was unwilling to destroy the Ninevites until they'd heard from His prophet Jonah, and God cites their ignorance as HIs specific reason.

Jesus stated, "If you were blind, you would be innocent...." Jesus also stated that the servant who was knowledgeable of what he should do will be destroyed, while the servant who was ignorant will suffer only a temporary punishment.

Paul said the same thing from the opposite direction, telling the Romans that creation itself provides everyone with enough information to at least acknowledge God's existence and essential virtue (Psalm 19), so no one is without excuse.

Nobody seriously argues that Job is not saved, yet Job was not even under the Abrahamic covenant. He only knew God through creation (Psalm 19 again). Job did this, though: He recognized that he could not reach God on his own, but needed an intercessor.

All of this strongly implies that having "walked in the light that you've been given" is taken into account in God's judgment. Infants are not given mercy because they're innocent, but because they're totally ignorant.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm starting with the assumption that there is a way those who haven't heard the gospel CAN be saved. An additional assumption that's implied is eternal lake of fire for those not in the book of life.

I'll give my answer in a following post, but feel free to offer solutions, preferably with biblical support.

Thanks to @bbbbbbb for the suggestion.

I believe it could be possible.

“for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭13‬-‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

I’m not saying that it’s absolutely certainly just saying that it might be possible.

 

[RDKirk]

He can do whatever He wants as long as it aligns with His character. He can't lie, for instance. If the lake of fire is vengeance for the things angels and mankind has done against Him and His children, and He doesn't take the vengeance He's promised, then hasn't He lied?

[Rom 12:19 KJV] Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
[2Th 1:8 KJV] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[Heb 10:30 KJV] For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[Rev 6:10 KJV] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

There are a couple of times that God relents from a decision already made when someone repents. That's what grace means. If someone deserves to be spared, it's not grace to spare him. It's only grace if he's been condemned...and then spared without any righteousness of his own.

 

[RDKirk]

It says vengeance is his but does it say God is required to take vengeance on all who have sinned?

Scripture characterizes the condition as indebtedness, and makes it clear that the one to whom the debt is owned is fully able to forgive the debt.