How are infants saved?

[ladodgers6]

It's all in Institutes. I'll give you the references when I find them again.

As for the "wages of sin is death", that is what the Bible teaches. But I still believe that we are being "paid" (our wages) for the sins that we commit personally, not for the sin that our first parents committed in the Garden.

I have Calvin's institutes, I will also look for it. Yes, we are held for our personal sins, but we are already under the reign of death & condemnation, and constituted sinners by the One Man's trespass. Paul even points out that death still reigned where there was no law (between Adam & Moses). And in Psalms 51:5, points out that we are formed & conceived in sin. Even before we actually/personally sin. So studying this, means that if we do not actually sin at birth, we are still sinful in God's sight. This is called Original sin. I am just sharing with you.

We are born sinners, but we cannot be considered trespassers of the law until we are old enough, until our brain is developed enough, to understand the concept and the difference between right and wrong.

This is where I need your help. Where can I found this in Scripture?

 

[Der Alte]

I came across this question in another thread. Want people to post their thoughts and Scripture to support it. Is there a age limit before they can be held accountable? Do infants get a pass? Do you believe in infant baptism?

I think these two verses answer the OP question. These vss. also cover the mentally challenged, those who live in remote places and have never heard the gospel etc.

Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

 

[St_Worm2]

This is where I need your help. Where can I found this in Scripture?

Hey LA, that's the problem, the age of accountability isn't discussed in the pages of Scripture, directly anyway (as I know you know). I do believe that it is implied in a passage like Romans 2:12-16, but you need to be careful to understand all that St. Paul is saying there.

I'm still looking for Calvin's reproof of Servetus over the issue of infant death and salvation (or in Servetus' case, the death and eternal destruction of an infant who is not a "believer" ). I'm looking in Institutes Book IV/Chapter XVI. It should either be there or in his notes which follow at the end of the Book IV. If I can't find it in either of those places, the comments I'm looking for may be part of his sermon on Isaiah 14:21, but I am going to have to dig to come up with that (it's not in his commentary on Isaiah).

I had all of this in my notes, but I have misplaced them somehow

 

[St_Worm2]

I just found this excerpt (see below) online here (which basically agrees with what I've been saying about Calvin), but I still don't have my hands on the documents I'm looking for yet.

The oldest evidence of this debate I found is in Calvin’s Institutes, where Calvin condemned Servetus. He said that Servetus’ theology was so twisted that it stressed free will to the point that if you followed him, you would be forced to conclude that even infants who died were damned to hell because they were not able to exercise their will to believe in saving faith (Institutes IV, 16, p 31). In that same section, Calvin addresses John 3:36 , and argues that it points to infant salvation, as infants were not able to exercise willing unbelief, so they do could not possibly stand condemned.

Calvin often taught on this issue, and in one instance he even preached a sermon (on Isaiah 14:21 ) where he explained that reprobation (pre-destination for hell) was true of infants, but that God would allow all of them to grow to a condition of sinful accountability so that they could secure their own damnation (here is a long but fascinating paper which takes an in-depth look at all Calvin taught on this subject).
​

The "long and fascinating paper" that is alluded to/linked above was probably something that I used when I did this study several years ago, but it is there no longer unfortunately.

I'll keep searching. Please let me know what you come up with

 

[SkyWriting]

I came across this question in another thread. Want people to post their thoughts and Scripture to support it. Is there a age limit before they can be held accountable? Do infants get a pass? Do you believe in infant baptism?

The law only falls on those who know it.
You can trust God that He handles the situation
on does not demand that babies get their head
wet in church.

 

[St_Worm2]

The law only falls on those who know it.

 

[ladodgers6]

I think these two verses answer the OP question. These vss. also cover the mentally challenged, those who live in remote places and have never heard the gospel etc.

Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

Thanks for your comments. I am mentally challenged. But in Romans 5 Paul says because of the One trespass we are constituted sinners. Please explain Romans 5:13 for me, please.

 

[ladodgers6]

Hey LA, that's the problem, the age of accountability isn't discussed in the pages of Scripture, directly anyway (as I know you know). I do believe that it is implied in a passage like Romans 2:12-16, but you need to be careful to understand all that St. Paul is saying there.

I'm still looking for Calvin's reproof of Servetus over the issue of infant death and salvation (or in Servetus' case, the death and eternal destruction of an infant who is not a "believer" ). I'm looking in Institutes Book IV/Chapter XVI. It should either be there or in his notes which follow at the end of the Book IV. If I can't find it in either of those places, the comments I'm looking for may be part of his sermon on Isaiah 14:21, but I am going to have to dig to come up with that (it's not in his commentary on Isaiah).

I had all of this in my notes, but I have misplaced them somehow

My Brother in the Lord St. Worm2,

Thanks for your help and comments. I love the book of Romans. I do understand Romans 2:12-16. Understanding Romans you have too understand the distinction between Law & Gospel in relation to Justification by Faith Alone. We are judge by the righteousness of God through the Law. And we are given the righteousness of God in the Gospel of Christ which is receive through Faith Alone!

I am not trying to argue or disrespect you, but if its not in the pages of Scripture, then how can we believe it? But I'll keep searching Calvin's Institutes to see what he says on it. Let me know if you find it.

 

[ladodgers6]

The law only falls on those who know it.
You can trust God that He handles the situation
on does not demand that babies get their head
wet in church.

Yes, but the wages of sin is death. Paul points out that the people who did not have the law (between Adam & Moses). Yet death reigned for those people. So the obvious question arises. Why does death still reign? No law, no sin imputed or counted against them, but they still die. In other words Paul is saying its because of the One Man's trespass, that they are already constituted 'sinners'. And the judgement has been rendered: death & condemnation. And this is why we are made righteous by One Man's act of righteousness. Paul is making a contrast or comparison here between the Adams. One has put us under condemnation & death. And the other has put us under Justification & Life.

 

[Der Alte]

Thanks for your comments. I am mentally challenged. But in Romans 5 Paul says because of the One trespass we are constituted sinners. Please explain Romans 5:13 for me, please.

We are born with the sin nature but as Romans 4:15 and Romans 5:13 say, if we do not have the law there is no sin. God is not a tyrant arbitrarily killing people.

 

[ladodgers6]

We are born with the sin nature but as Romans 4:15 and Romans 5:13 say, if we do not have the law there is no sin. God is not a tyrant arbitrarily killing people.

So those without the law are saved?

 

[geiroffenberg]

Is there a age limit before they can be held accountable? Do infants get a pass? Do you believe in infant baptism?

There is a "age limit" for accountablilty in the law, but it is probably more reflecting personal maturity and consciouness of good and evil rather than a age.

Infant baptism has no salvation in it, because baptism as a whole does not save. (1 pet 3:21 talks about the water baptism as a figure for salvation. Paul did not perform baptisms, but he still called them brothers. Kornelius whole family - presumably including children - received salvation with spiritual baptism as a sign without water etc)

Waterbaptism is "baptism of repentance" as taught by john the baptist and peter on teh day of pentecost. It is meaningless without true "metanoia" repentance, but metanoia without water works just fine, or jesus wouldnt say "repent, becuase the kingdom is at hand" he would have to say "repent and be baptised" every time, or he would be lying that you can receive the kingdom without the water ritual. Kids can not perform metanopia repentance , but metanoia repentance is to "repent and be like a child" becuase "the kingdom belongs to these". Hope that makes sense.

A real understanding of metanoia repentance clears up all issues, lol.

 

[didomach]

Infant baptism does not save a child. It marks them with a seal of their right of inheritance in the church, just as circumcision did not save all ("it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring." Rom 4:16/9:8). The sign&seal of the covenant is not the covenant. It is its sign. Just as the thief on the cross was heir without the sign, believers have every right to believe that their deceased infants remain under that promise (1 Cor 7:14 "as it is, they are holy"), even if they died before baptism was possible.

As far as infants of unsaved people, we have to entrust that to "God who judges justly." We know God will do what is exactly right and just, so we need not worry that they will or will not be saved, just that it will not seem unjust or wrong for anyone who witnesses the act of their final judgment.

I personally believe there is enough evidence in Scripture to say that infants can be aware of faith in God even in the womb. So we can trust that God's relationship with them is not limited to our ability to test the matter. Their life and awareness quite possibly gave them the chance to worship or reject the revelation of God given to them up to their point of death.

 

[geiroffenberg]

Thats a great answer, didomach.

I personally believe there is enough evidence in Scripture to say that infants can be aware of faith in God even in the womb. So we can trust that God's relationship with them is not limited to our ability to test the matter. Their life and awareness quite possibly gave them the chance to worship or reject the revelation of God given to them up to their point of death.

I love how you use the word aware and awareness of faith in this, it shows that you point to a kind of faith that is not doctrine based or head knowledge based but a substantial consciousness about god, i couldnt say it better. IMO all children have this from god, it is the "faith of god" that we are all commanded and taught to have. "have the faith of god" "i live by the faith of christ" "we have accsess by the faith of god" etc.

 

[didomach]

IMO all children have this from god, it is the "faith of god" that we are all commanded and taught to have.

We cannot know that God gives this to all children. We only know that David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and John the Baptist hint at an awareness of things in the womb. All of these children ended up worshipping Christ as adults, either the named Messiah or the yet unnamed Messiah. We may HOPE all infants who die have been given this chance, but we cannot KNOW. We can only know the character of God, and as a just, righteous, holy, kind God, he will do what is right. Being sinful beings, we cannot presume to fully understand that rightness.

 

[dwbid42]

I have several verses to run by this group.
1)2Sa 12:23 But NOW HE IS DEAD , wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I SHALL GO TO HIM , but he shall not return to me. - This is David speaking so unless you believe David is in hell then his infant went to heaven and David will go to him there.

2)Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except YE BE CONVERTED , AND BECOME AS LITTLE CHILDREN , ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. - I thinks this verse is self explanatory. Jesus equates a little child with a person who is converted.

3)Deu 1:39 Moreover your LITTLE ONES , which ye said should be a prey, AND YOUR CHILDREN , WHICH IN THAT DAY HAD NO KNOWLEDGE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL , THEY SHALL GO IN THITHER , and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it. - This is what the Lord told Moses. It states that children do not have a knowledge of good and evil thus they could enter into the Promised Land.

4)Num 14:29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from TWENTY YEARS OLD AND UPWARD , which have murmured against me,
Num 14:30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
Num 14:31 But YOUR LITTLE ONES , which ye said should be a prey, THEM WILL I BRING IN , and they shall know the land which ye have despised.
These verses seem to indicate age twenty may be age of accountability. If that isn't so at least it's clear that "little ones" made it into the Promised Land because they were too young to be held accountable.

5)Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32 And THEY SPAKE UNTO HIM THE WORD OF THE LORD , AND TO ALL THAT WERE IN HIS HOUSE - Everyone had to be spoken to because each had to hear and believe. If only the jailer needed to believe what was the need of speaking to ALL that were in his house. Verse 31 could be read as follows - "You and your household believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you (plural) will be saved". If the head of the house could save all in the house then it would put him on a co-equal equal footing with Christ for all that were saved in addition to himself. I don't believe that the scriptures allow for "household salvation" as there are too many scriptures that say YOU must, repent, believe etc. Salvation is a very personal thing and something which each individual is responsible for.
Just some food for thought.
Dave B

 

[Shane2336]

Hi Shane, Romans 2 was written about Jews and Gentiles who are not "in Christ", not believers. Those "in Christ" cannot be judged unworthy of eternal life because they already possess it. They will not even stand in the Judgement (at the Great White Throne) with the reprobate, much less will they be condemned along with them .. i.e. John 3:18; John 5:24).

Our works (the "saints" works) will be judged by Christ at the Bema Seat however, where we will receive "rewards" (or the lack thereof) in regards to things we've done in this life, but our eternal destinies will not be in question at the point, of course.

Yours and His,
David

I certainly agree with you here. Those of us already "in Christ" have been spoken for through His perfect life that was pleasing to the Father. He took our place, living the life we cannot live and dying the death that we deserve. (Thank God Almighty! Right??)

 

[Shane2336]

Hi Shane, one last thing (which I missed earlier, sorry about that) concerning Romans 2:14-15.

14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them. ~Romans 2
​

Actually, v15 tells us that Gentiles (who possess nothing more than a God-given sense of right and wrong, IOW, nothing more than the law that was written in all our hearts by God) demonstrate by their thoughts that they understand right from wrong (their thoughts .. their consciences .. either "excusing" them OR "accusing" them). This, of course, cannot be true for babies since their minds aren't capable of forming such complex thoughts.

Finally, one other thing. You also wrote:



The Gentiles perish without knowing the "Law of Moses", not w/o knowing any law at all (as we, again, all have a basic moral code, a conscience, given to us by God and written upon our hearts as part of our makeup as human beings).

Yours in Christ,
David

Okay, I'm with you 100% here. I affirm that God makes himself known to ALL people. And I also agree that He is the source of the "moral code" that has prevailed through the ages. So, undoubtedly infants aren't able to fully understand this concept of right and wrong. But does this excuse their sinful nature? Whether or not someone understands if they are right or wrong, I wouldn't think it changes the fact they are still born into Sin...? I know, I know, this is a very difficult topic. But thoughts on that?

 

[SkyWriting]

Yes, but the wages of sin is death. Paul points out that the people who did not have the law (between Adam & Moses). Yet death reigned for those people. So the obvious question arises. Why does death still reign? No law, no sin imputed or counted against them, but they still die. In other words Paul is saying its because of the One Man's trespass, that they are already constituted 'sinners'. And the judgement has been rendered: death & condemnation. And this is why we are made righteous by One Man's act of righteousness. Paul is making a contrast or comparison here between the Adams. One has put us under condemnation & death. And the other has put us under Justification & Life.

I trust God more than your understanding of scripture regarding the torment of un-watered babies.

 

[Theo Book]

I came across this question in another thread. Want people to post their thoughts and Scripture to support it. Is there a age limit before they can be held accountable?

]

The age limit attained by and assigned to Israel, was "Twenty years and upward" released them from parental authority and made them accountable for their own decisions, and subject to National authority, such as military draft. -

Numbers 1:18 And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls.

Numbers 8:24 This is it that belongeth unto the Levites: from twenty and five years old and upward they shall go in to wait upon the service of the tabernacle of the congregation:

Numbers 14:29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,

Numbers 26:4 Take the sum of the people, from twenty years old and upward; as the LORD commanded Moses and the children of Israel, which went forth out of the land of Egypt.

Numbers 32:11 Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me.

Do infants get a pass?

Infants are unable to respond to anything beyond basic instinct and survival. Feeding, sleeping, body functions.

As for "getting a pass;" I assume that to be a reference to salvation.?!

More to the point, "Damnation" is for sinners. Infants do not and can not sin.

Do you believe in infant baptism?

Nope! "He that believeth and is Baptized will be saved. [Acts 2:38]

Then there is the problem of baptizing infants that defies scripture, collectively references as "Modes of Baptism."

Scripture teaches that pouring and sprinkling water over a baby's head are not "Baptism." And those are the generally accepted ways called "Baptism" by men, but not by scripture.

Scripture makes it clear, that pouring and sprinkling are not baptism, in

Leviticus 14:15 And the priest shall take some of the log of oil, and [1][epiceei] pour it into the palm of his own left hand: 16 And the priest shall [2][bayei] dip his right finger in the oil that is in his left hand, and shall [3][ranei] sprinkle of the oil with his finger seven times before the LORD:

[1][epiceei verb indicative future active 3rd person singular epicew pour on

[2][bayei verb indicative future active 3rd person singular baptw dip, immerse


[3][ranei verb indicative future active 3rd person singular rainw sprinkle

The obvious point of this little exercise, is, God knows the difference between sprinkling, pouring, and Baptism, and instructed "Baptism" of believers.