How are infants saved?

[ladodgers6]

I came across this question in another thread. Want people to post their thoughts and Scripture to support it. Is there a age limit before they can be held accountable? Do infants get a pass? Do you believe in infant baptism?

 

[Shane2336]

My thoughts and Scripture to support:

I, personally, do not agree with this doctrine of the "age of accountability", because it simply is not found in Scripture. However, what is in Scripture is the statement from Paul in his epistle to the Romans: " For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (3:23). Now this verse is quoted quite frequently in our circles, but I would say that it certainly is still of good use. This verse tells us that there are none who are considered righteous or justified in God's sight. This takes us to the concept of original sin. This is a widely accepted doctrine among Christians. From birth, we are born into Sin. The moment we are conceived, we are brought into this world as a fallen creature, incapable of justification before God. If you agree with that statement, then we have to face the fact that there isn't an "age of accountability" because we are set apart from God at the start. So, I venture to say that infants do not "get a pass." They/we are sinful from our beginning.

This brings me to the next topic, infant Baptism. This is something I wrestled with quite heavily a few years ago. I was raised in the Baptist church. As is common with Baptist theology and practice, Baptism is viewed as nothing more than a profession of faith. This is an outward act, or show, reflecting an inner change. This really was a difficult idea for me to abandon as it was what I had been taught, and believed, for many years. After doing much study in the area, my views changed. I believe that the Old and New testaments (covenants) tie together quite harmoniously. In the Old Testament, in God's covenant with Abraham, there was no practice of Baptism. However, we see the practice of circumcision instead. This was for both adults and infants. It was instructed that every child was to be circumcised on the 8th day after birth. This practice was done to show that the man, or child, belonged to God. It was an inclusion into the covenant.
Now in the NT, Paul makes it very clear that it is no longer circumcision, but Baptism. Christ himself says in Mark 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved." And Peter states in Acts 2:38, "Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." This verse explicitly states that Baptism works forgiveness of sins. These men also spoke of this Sacrament being set up for children as well. It is for everyone.

Here is a great article on the subject.
http://www.opc.org/new_horizons/NH00/0007c.html

When I (and many others) read these verses, I can no longer see baptism as a "show of faith." If this were merely a show, it would not be commanded, but suggested. Both verses use very authoritative language.

To summarize, I believe that the Bible teaches that we are all born into Sin. I believe the Scriptures show infant baptism. And I believe that Baptism is God's grace in the form of a sacramental gift to believers and their children.

 

[St_Worm2]

When unborn children, babies, and toddlers die, they go to Heaven. We are all fallen, but God doesn't judge our "nature", rather, He judges us on the basis of what we do (say and think) according to the Law (be it the Law He gave to Moses, or be it the law that is written upon each of our hearts .. if the Law of Moses is unknown to the person being judged).

The person being "judged" must also be able to understand the Law, and he/she must be able to truly understand right from wrong. Toddlers are not capable of doing either, neither are babies or unborn children (obviously), so they will not be judged.

12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. ~Romans 2
​

Yours and His,
David

 

[Shane2336]

When unborn children, babies, and toddlers die, they go to Heaven. We are all fallen, but God doesn't judge us according to our "nature", rather, He judges us on the basis of what we do (say and think) according to the Law (be it the Law He gave to Moses, or be it the law that is written upon each of our hearts .. if the Law of Moses is unknown to the person being judged).

The person being "judged" must also be able to understand the Law, and he/she must be able to truly understand right from wrong. Toddlers are not capable of doing either, neither are babies or unborn children (obviously), so they will not be judged.

12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. ~Romans 2
​

Yours and His,
David

This suggests that we are judged by our works? A very interesting stance for a Calvinist.

"For all who have sinned without the law, will also perish without the law..." I see this verse being contradictory to your post. They perish, with no knowledge of the law.
I also don't see 13 fitting into this discussion.
14&15 States that they uphold the law, because it is written on their hearts.
And most importantly, 16. We are judged by (through/of) Christ Jesus. Not ourselves. If we were judged by our own merit, we would certainly be damned.

 

[ladodgers6]

My thoughts and Scripture to support:

I, personally, do not agree with this doctrine of the "age of accountability", because it simply is not found in Scripture. However, what is in Scripture is the statement from Paul in his epistle to the Romans: " For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (3:23). Now this verse is quoted quite frequently in our circles, but I would say that it certainly is still of good use. This verse tells us that there are none who are considered righteous or justified in God's sight. This takes us to the concept of original sin. This is a widely accepted doctrine among Christians. From birth, we are born into Sin. The moment we are conceived, we are brought into this world as a fallen creature, incapable of justification before God. If you agree with that statement, then we have to face the fact that there isn't an "age of accountability" because we are set apart from God at the start. So, I venture to say that infants do not "get a pass." They/we are sinful from our beginning.

This brings me to the next topic, infant Baptism. This is something I wrestled with quite heavily a few years ago. I was raised in the Baptist church. As is common with Baptist theology and practice, Baptism is viewed as nothing more than a profession of faith. This is an outward act, or show, reflecting an inner change. This really was a difficult idea for me to abandon as it was what I had been taught, and believed, for many years. After doing much study in the area, my views changed. I believe that the Old and New testaments (covenants) tie together quite harmoniously. In the Old Testament, in God's covenant with Abraham, there was no practice of Baptism. However, we see the practice of circumcision instead. This was for both adults and infants. It was instructed that every child was to be circumcised on the 8th day after birth. This practice was done to show that the man, or child, belonged to God. It was an inclusion into the covenant.
Now in the NT, Paul makes it very clear that it is no longer circumcision, but Baptism. Christ himself says in Mark 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved." And Peter states in Acts 2:38, "Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." This verse explicitly states that Baptism works forgiveness of sins. These men also spoke of this Sacrament being set up for children as well. It is for everyone.

Here is a great article on the subject.
http://www.opc.org/new_horizons/NH00/0007c.html

When I (and many others) read these verses, I can no longer see baptism as a "show of faith." If this were merely a show, it would not be commanded, but suggested. Both verses use very authoritative language.

To summarize, I believe that the Bible teaches that we are all born into Sin. I believe the Scriptures show infant baptism. And I believe that Baptism is God's grace in the form of a sacramental gift to believers and their children.

Thanks for your comments. Yes I hold to infant baptism. This is my Scripture support for the infant will be saved because their parents belief in Jesus Christ.

Acts 16:31 “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.”

 

[ladodgers6]

When unborn children, babies, and toddlers die, they go to Heaven. We are all fallen, but God doesn't judge our "nature", rather, He judges us on the basis of what we do (say and think) according to the Law (be it the Law He gave to Moses, or be it the law that is written upon each of our hearts .. if the Law of Moses is unknown to the person being judged).

The person being "judged" must also be able to understand the Law, and he/she must be able to truly understand right from wrong. Toddlers are not capable of doing either, neither are babies or unborn children (obviously), so they will not be judged.

12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. ~Romans 2
​

Yours and His,
David

Thanks for your comments. I understand what you are saying with respect to infants/kids not knowing right from wrong per se. And I am a convinced Calvinist. I also believe in infant baptism. And I hope we can discuss this topic without being mean to each other. Because this is a touching subject, I get that. So please understand that we are asking and pointing things out to get a better grasp on it. So I do not mean any disrespect.

In Romans 6:23, 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. And in Romans 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses...

So because these people who had no law still died. Because of the one trespass of Adam was imputed to all of us, we die. And in Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. Calvin says even though the infant has not bought forth sinful fruits, that God still has rendered his righteous judgement against this sin, which is called Original sin.

Your thoughts?

 

[sdowney717]

For example, Romans 3, blessed are those to whom God does not impute to them their sin.

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

So this decision is up to the LORD. In other places we read that in young children and suckling infants God has perfected praise, which is they are praising God.

Matthew 21
14 Then the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them.15 But when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that He did, and the children crying out in the temple and saying, “Hosanna to the Son of David!” they were indignant 16 and said to Him, “Do You hear what these are saying?”

And Jesus said to them, “Yes. Have you never read,

‘Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants
You have perfected praise’?”

17 Then He left them and went out of the city to Bethany, and He lodged there.

 

[Shane2336]

And I hope we can discuss this topic without being mean to each other. Because this is a touching subject, I get that. So please understand that we are asking and pointing things out to get a better grasp on it. So I do not mean any disrespect.

I could not agree more. I do admit that I may have come off as standoffish in my response to St_Worm2. This was not my intent and I would very much like to still remain a part of this discussion. Apologies gentlemen!

 

[ladodgers6]

No problem, please provide any insight you have.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I came across this question in another thread. Want people to post their thoughts and Scripture to support it. Is there a age limit before they can be held accountable? Do infants get a pass? Do you believe in infant baptism?

The same way adults are saved: by the grace and mercy of God found in Christ Jesus our Lord. This is also why the Christian Church has historically baptized infants, because in the waters of Holy Baptism is found God's solemn word and promise. Concerning unbaptized infants, well such matters are God's. Ours isn't to figure out who all is saved and who isn't, but to put our faith in Christ. Scripture says God is the Savior of all men, so we should trust that He cares very much for the salvation of all.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I came across this question in another thread. Want people to post their thoughts and Scripture to support it. Is there a age limit before they can be held accountable? Do infants get a pass? Do you believe in infant baptism?

When the whole world was wiped out before,
there's no Scripture that indicates anyone was saved, infant, unborn or other,
except and only the people on the ARK.

 

[St_Worm2]

This suggests that we are judged by our works? A very interesting stance for a Calvinist.

"For all who have sinned without the law, will also perish without the law..." I see this verse being contradictory to your post. They perish, with no knowledge of the law.
I also don't see 13 fitting into this discussion.
14&15 States that they uphold the law, because it is written on their hearts.
And most importantly, 16. We are judged by (through/of) Christ Jesus. Not ourselves. If we were judged by our own merit, we would certainly be damned.

Hi Shane, Romans 2 was written about Jews and Gentiles who are not "in Christ", not believers. Those "in Christ" cannot be judged unworthy of eternal life because they already possess it. They will not even stand in the Judgement (at the Great White Throne) with the reprobate, much less will they be condemned along with them .. i.e. John 3:18; John 5:24).

Our works (the "saints" works) will be judged by Christ at the Bema Seat however, where we will receive "rewards" (or the lack thereof) in regards to things we've done in this life, but our eternal destinies will not be in question at the point, of course.

Yours and His,
David

 

[St_Worm2]

Thanks for your comments. I understand what you are saying with respect to infants/kids not knowing right from wrong per se. And I am a convinced Calvinist. I also believe in infant baptism. And I hope we can discuss this topic without being mean to each other. Because this is a touching subject, I get that. So please understand that we are asking and pointing things out to get a better grasp on it. So I do not mean any disrespect.

In Romans 6:23, 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. And in Romans 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses...

So because these people who had no law still died. Because of the one trespass of Adam was imputed to all of us, we die. And in Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. Calvin says even though the infant has not bought forth sinful fruits, that God still has rendered his righteous judgement against this sin, which is called Original sin.

Your thoughts?

Hi LADodgers, I told you what Calvin teaches concerning infants who die, well, most of it anyway. He was embroiled in a fight with none other than Servetus concerning this very subject (who taught that ANY who die, including infants, were condemned if they did not choose to believe ).

It, of course, goes much deeper than that with Calvin. To sum it all up quickly, Calvin teaches that all who die as infants are "elect". The reprobate, on the other hand, never die as infants (because God makes sure they do not).

I'm not completely comfortable with Calvin's teaching about this, but I know I am completely uncomfortable with the idea of God judging and condemning infants, toddlers, and unborn children to eternal damnation on the basis of their inherited "nature".

Are you comfortable with that? If so, do you know of any place in the Bible that tells us that God will judge us on the basis of who we are, rather than on the basis of what we've done?

I don't, but if you do, please point it out to me.

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

 

[St_Worm2]

14&15 States that they uphold the law, because it is written on their hearts.

Hi Shane, one last thing (which I missed earlier, sorry about that) concerning Romans 2:14-15.

14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them. ~Romans 2
​

Actually, v15 tells us that Gentiles (who possess nothing more than a God-given sense of right and wrong, IOW, nothing more than the law that was written in all our hearts by God) demonstrate by their thoughts that they understand right from wrong (their thoughts .. their consciences .. either "excusing" them OR "accusing" them). This, of course, cannot be true for babies since their minds aren't capable of forming such complex thoughts.

Finally, one other thing. You also wrote:

"For all who have sinned without the law, will also perish without the law..." I see this verse being contradictory to your post. They perish, with no knowledge of the law.

The Gentiles perish without knowing the "Law of Moses", not w/o knowing any law at all (as we, again, all have a basic moral code, a conscience, given to us by God and written upon our hearts as part of our makeup as human beings).

Yours in Christ,
David

 

[sdowney717]

Hi Shane, one last thing (which I missed earlier, sorry about that) concerning Romans 2:14-15.

14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them. ~Romans 2
​

Actually, v15 tells us that Gentiles (who possess nothing more than a God-given sense of right and wrong, IOW, nothing more than the law that was written in all our hearts by God) demonstrate by their thoughts that they understand right from wrong (their thoughts .. their consciences .. either "excusing" them OR "accusing" them). This, of course, cannot be true for babies since their minds aren't capable of forming such complex thoughts.

Yours in Christ,
David

If they are not born again, neither excusing themselves or accusing themselves will avail.
Adam excused himself to God saying 'the woman thou gavest me', and likewise Eve to the serpent.
Genesis 3
12 Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”

13 And the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

To be consistent scripturally, about this, 'the work of the law written in their hearts', we know that no flesh is justified to God by the work of the law.
And the last part here, about judging the secrets of men, is by the gospel of Jesus Christ, so they are without excuse.

14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Jesus spoke of allowing the little children to come to Him and of such little children is the kingdom of heaven, so there are many in heaven who died as little children.

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Mark 10:14
But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.

 

[ladodgers6]

Hi LADodgers, I told you what Calvin teaches concerning infants who die, well, most of it anyway. He was embroiled in a fight with none other than Servetus concerning this very subject (who taught that ANY who die, including infants, were condemned if they did not choose to believe ).

It, of course, goes much deeper than that with Calvin. To sum it all up quickly, Calvin teaches that all who die as infants are "elect". The reprobate, on the other hand, never die as infants (because God makes sure they do not).

I'm not completely comfortable with Calvin's teaching about this, but I know I am completely uncomfortable with the idea of God judging and condemning infants, toddlers, and unborn children to eternal damnation on the basis of their inherited "nature".

Are you comfortable with that? If so, do you know of any place in the Bible that tells us that God will judge us on the basis of who we are, rather than on the basis of what we've done?

I don't, but if you do, please point it out to me.

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

Hi St. Worm,

I believe in infant baptism; that the parents who do believe in the Gospel of Christ will be saved and his/her family (Acts 16). This is a very touchy subject. So I will try my best to handle this subject with kids gloves. I believe in the imputation of Adam's sin to all of us, including infants/kids. There is no way around this fact (Psalms 51:5). The wages of sin is death. This is also in Scripture. And death & condemnation reigns over everyone because of One Man's trespass.

Do you have the reference where Calvin's says that infants that die are "elect".

 

[St_Worm2]

I hope we can discuss this topic without being mean to each other. Because this is a touching subject, I get that. So please understand that we are asking and pointing things out to get a better grasp on it. So I do not mean any disrespect.

Hey LA, if I gave you or Shane the sense that I was upset about anything either one of you said, I apologize. My first post was made up of my general thoughts about the matter at hand, as well some of what had been written, but it was not a direct reply to anything that either of you said (which is why I didn't quote either one of your posts).

So let's consider all avenues because I don't believe I will ever be completely settled about this subject (unless I've somehow missed the spot in the Bible that tells us, "this is what happens to babies when they die" ).

--David

 

[St_Worm2]

The wages of sin is death. This is also in Scripture. And death & condemnation reigns over everyone because of One Man's trespass.

Do you have the reference where Calvin's says that infants that die are "elect".

It's all in Institutes. I'll give you the references when I find them again.

As for the "wages of sin is death", that is what the Bible teaches. But I still believe that we are being "paid" (our wages) for the sins that we commit personally, not for the sin that our first parents committed in the Garden.

We are born sinners, but we cannot be considered trespassers of the law until we are old enough, until our brain is developed enough, to understand the concept and the difference between right and wrong. We are begotten in sin and born dead because of our fallen nature, but again, I do not believe God judges our "nature", He judges what we do, say, and/or think.

Do you know of a passage or verse in the Bible that tells us otherwise?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

 

[St_Worm2]

If they are not born again, neither excusing themselves or accusing themselves will avail.

That's absolutely correct. In fact, what I believe St. Paul is saying here is that the Gentiles (who do not have the Law of Moses to accuse them directly) condemn themselves anyway when their consciences accuse them of doing wrong, because in doing so, they demonstrate that they do know right from wrong.

Both Jews or Greeks are under sin (i.e. Romans 3:9) and ALL will perish because they are lawbreakers who KNOW that they've done wrong. In saying this, it must also be understood that St. Paul is referring to those who are not "in Christ".

Is this not the very thing that St. Paul is trying to teach us in the first three chapters of Romans (his thoughts culminating in Romans 3:23), IOW, that ALL are under sin (whether they be Jew or Greek), that ALL are w/o hope apart from Christ.

Yours in Christ,
David

 

[ladodgers6]

Hey LA, if I gave you or Shane the sense that I was upset about anything either one of you said, I apologize. My first post was made up of my general thoughts about the matter at hand, as well some of what had been written, but it was not a direct reply to anything that either of you said (which is why I didn't quote either one of your posts).

So let's consider all avenues because I don't believe I will ever be completely settled about this subject (unless I've somehow missed the spot in the Bible that tells us, "this is what happens to babies when they die" ).

--David

No my brother, I am not upset. We are here to discuss this sensitive matter. Like I said I came across this question in another thread. And I am just asking questions to understand other views on this subject.