How are infants saved?

JoeP222w · Dec 2, 2016

ladodgers6 said:
Okay, but you cannot exclude infants.

I didn't. But as I wrote, if one says that there were infants in the Jailer's household, scripture does not say that, so it is an argument from silence.

ladodgers6 said:
So tell me, were the Israelite's infants saved in the OT? How? Why?

Same way as anyone else is saved, through the divine predestination, autonomous free will of God and His election.

ladodgers6 said:
IF they do have an infant. And if this infant dies, and there was no profession of faith from the infant, the infant is not saved?

A profession of faith does not save anyone. There have been many false professions. God is the one who saves a person, regardless of their age. A profession of faith follows after one is saved.

But there is not much to be gained in hypotheticals and unknowns. We need to focus on what scripture actually says, not silence.

JacksBratt · Dec 2, 2016

ladodgers6 said:
Thanks for your comments. I understand your position, but how do you deal with Psalms 51:5?

I deal with it quite fine. Every human will sin, period. Infants, children and those with issues that keep them from ever reaching a level of comprehension of their sin, can not be found "without excuse".

Christ will look at every life and the experiences of those who lived it. Those that have never heard the gospel will be judged based on the wonders and awesomeness of this universe which display the works of the creator, combined with the attitude of their heart. This is because the knowledge of right and wrong is programmed into our very mind.

These people will be judged and are "without excuse" and Christ will judge whether they are saved or damned.

However, mentally challenged and young children never reach a point of mental ability to be held "without excuse" will also be judged by Christ. They will be the ones found "with excuse"

Can you, actually, see Christ judging a 1 year old child or any human that is oblivious to the complexities of this world and sending it to hell?

Seriously... that boggles my mind.

HighwayMan · Dec 2, 2016

JacksBratt said:
I deal with it quite fine. Every human will sin, period. Infants, children and those with issues that keep them from ever reaching a level of comprehension of their sin, can not be found "without excuse".

Christ will look at every life and the experiences of those who lived it. Those that have never heard the gospel will be judged based on the wonders and awesomeness of this universe which display the works of the creator, combined with the attitude of their heart. This is because the knowledge of right and wrong is programmed into our very mind.

These people will be judged and are "without excuse" and Christ will judge whether they are saved or damned.

However, mentally challenged and young children never reach a point of mental ability to be held "without excuse" will also be judged by Christ. They will be the ones found "with excuse"

Can you, actually, see Christ judging a 1 year old child or any human that is oblivious to the complexities of this world and sending it to hell?

Seriously... that boggles my mind.

That's all fine, but when you open the door to so many exceptions, and start considering every human life and the experiences they have had, what it could be fair to expect them to know and believe, and what isn't fair....even if you say "Well God knows and will do what's best," which is true, logically it means that quite a limited percentage of people will have 'failed the test' of knowing Christ, as an incredibly large amount will have genuine good excuses, that you could believe Jesus would accept.

It kind of means that "the only way to heaven is through Christ," the mantra of most mainstream teachings, pretty much only applies to grown, mentally healthy, largely white people of European descent. So it would make no sense to proclaim that message to the whole world.

JacksBratt · Dec 2, 2016

HighwayMan said:
That's all fine, but when you open the door to so many exceptions, and start considering every human life and the experiences they have had, what it could be fair to expect them to know and believe, and what isn't fair....even if you say "Well God knows and will do what's best," which is true, logically it means that quite a limited percentage of people will have 'failed the test' of knowing Christ, as an incredibly large amount will have genuine good excuses, that you could believe Jesus would accept.

It kind of means that "the only way to heaven is through Christ," the mantra of most mainstream teachings, pretty much only applies to grown, mentally healthy, largely white people of European descent. So it would make no sense to proclaim that message to the whole world.

Actually what it means is a huge number of people will have failed the test.

Let's look at this.

How many people die before they are old enough to understand and comprehend the concept of salvation?

How many are challenged with a lack of mental capability that leaves them without the cognitive ability to understand that they are sinners?

This is a very small percentage of all of mankind.

People who lived and died before they heard the gospel message, for whatever reason, will be judged according to what they did know and are "without excuse" in the eyes of our savior.

To say that a 2 year old that dies of some tragic incident, will be damned to hell as they are conceived in sin.... makes Christ anything but the personification of Love.

Saying that a religious leader sprinkling water on the infants forehead fixes all this is nonsense. It only serves to control the public, again, to come to church because if you don't do this, your child will go to hell.

Don't laugh, this is what my friends mother was told when the priest noticed that they didn't attend his church. It was a pressure tactic and has no Biblical basis.

You and you alone are responsible for your salvation and you and you alone make the choice to accept or reject Christ.

No ritual is going to save you. No Priest or "man of the cloth will save your either.

It is you and you alone....

A young child or anyone that has not the capability to comprehend this demise will never be sent to hell. And, they will never be saved from hell by the actions, rituals, prayers or works of any created being, save the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christs death and resurrection.

HighwayMan · Dec 2, 2016

JacksBratt said:
Actually what it means is a huge number of people will have failed the test.

Let's look at this.

How many people die before they are old enough to understand and comprehend the concept of salvation?

How many are challenged with a lack of mental capability that leaves them without the cognitive ability to understand that they are sinners?

This is a very small percentage of all of mankind.

That last sentence I do not agree with. We are talking about the whole world here. Africa, South America, etc. Throughout history. There are many, many millions of babies that have died, from sickness, diseases, war, hunger, etc. etc. etc. And if we count aborted babies, who even knows how high that number becomes.

And if you start with the babies, the question is where do you end? Is a four year old mature enough to decide the most important question of their lives that will determine their eternal destiny? And if they decide wrong, the 4 year olds are going to hell? What about 6 year olds? 9 and 1/2 year olds?

In a number of countries, including America I believe, you are not considered mature and responsible enough to have your first can of beer before you turn 21. Are you old enough to decide your eternal destiny before you are old enough to have a Millers Light?

And mentally disabled people. The variations of this are endless. There are some who are utterly incapable of understanding anything. They may be smaller in number. But then there are some who may be able to grasp basic concepts; others who might successfully finish the earliest grades in school; some who may even hold a basic job...but struggle intensely with a variety of learning-related difficulties, with their memory, with discerning things etc. the ways the human brain can go wrong are almost endless, and affects a massive amount of people. I know many.

I really can't imagine a scenario where some get a pass because they were "way too bad," but others - "well, at least you could count to 10, so...no excuses. Time for hell."

And in any case, all these people definitely make up a large enough percentage of humanity to call for more thought and discussion than people usually give this topic.

People who lived and died before they heard the gospel message, for whatever reason, will be judged according to what they did know and are "without excuse" in the eyes of our savior.

But so, if some of these people go to heaven, they would have gone to heaven without believing in Jesus Christ in this life, as they never heard about Jesus Christ. So it would make the statements that "Having faith in Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven" factually incorrect. You cannot both have "the only way" and "but there are also other ways" at the same time.

I agree with the rest, I wouldn't believe baptism is the deciding factor for anyone's soul.

ladodgers6 · Dec 2, 2016

JoeP222w said:
I didn't. But as I wrote, if one says that there were infants in the Jailer's household, scripture does not say that, so it is an argument from silence.

Same way as anyone else is saved, through the divine predestination, autonomous free will of God and His election.

A profession of faith does not save anyone. There have been many false professions. God is the one who saves a person, regardless of their age. A profession of faith follows after one is saved.

But there is not much to be gained in hypotheticals and unknowns. We need to focus on what scripture actually says, not silence.

I understand your comments. Yes we are saved by the Grace of God. But we are not saved until we are united to Christ through Faith Alone apart from works. I also believe we can speak of theology and ask any question and encourage others to do the same. This is a difficult question, I believe in Covenant Theology and I also believe that a family that is saved by God through Grace and Faith, includes the infant.

RaymondG · Dec 2, 2016

JacksBratt said:
Can you, actually, see Christ judging a 1 year old child or any human that is oblivious to the complexities of this world and sending it to hell?

Seriously... that boggles my mind.

I actually cant see God (You do know Christ is a title, and not name right?...just like God) sending anyone to the burning hole of fire for all time, created by religion. Especially not in the 30mins of life that religion gives us to get everything right (1 day is 1000years etc..).

If you blaspheme the spirit, you will not be forgiven in this life nor the next..... Why would a next life be mentioned if it is common knowledge that you only get one time to die then judgment, as it is religiously understood?

And what is all this talk of the will of God. Does the will of God really matter in religion? Can something be God's will and I do something to change it? It is commonly said that even though the Bible says to ask and you shall receive, if you ask for something outside of God's will, you wont get it. So in this context His will is important. Well how about here:

It is God's will that NONE be lost. It is God's will that ALL come to repentance.
2 peter 3:9

Is his will important here? can I do something or request something that can change his will?

ladodgers6 · Dec 2, 2016

JacksBratt said:
I deal with it quite fine. Every human will sin, period. Infants, children and those with issues that keep them from ever reaching a level of comprehension of their sin, can not be found "without excuse".

Christ will look at every life and the experiences of those who lived it. Those that have never heard the gospel will be judged based on the wonders and awesomeness of this universe which display the works of the creator, combined with the attitude of their heart. This is because the knowledge of right and wrong is programmed into our very mind.

These people will be judged and are "without excuse" and Christ will judge whether they are saved or damned.

However, mentally challenged and young children never reach a point of mental ability to be held "without excuse" will also be judged by Christ. They will be the ones found "with excuse"

Can you, actually, see Christ judging a 1 year old child or any human that is oblivious to the complexities of this world and sending it to hell?

Seriously... that boggles my mind.

Psalms 51:5 is David knowing we have no excuse before a Holy God. Because from birth we all are formed in sin. This is due to the first Adam. This is called the imputation of Adam sin to his progeny in Romans 5. I am still doing my homework and researching it. But thanks for your comments.

JacksBratt · Dec 2, 2016

HighwayMan said:
That last sentence I do not agree with. We are talking about the whole world here. Africa, South America, etc. Throughout history. There are many, many millions of babies that have died, from sickness, diseases, war, hunger, etc. etc. etc. And if we count aborted babies, who even knows how high that number becomes.

This is still a mute point. What does God and Christ do? Say "wow, there are way too many humans that never reached a point of mental ability to comprehend their sin. This is too much. Better send some to hell" ?????

We are not privy to the size of Heaven or the number of souls that will make it there. The number of children or mentally inept is of no consequence when the rules Christ sets for their salvation are in play.

HighwayMan said:
And if you start with the babies, the question is where do you end? Is a four year old mature enough to decide the most important question of their lives that will determine their eternal destiny? And if they decide wrong, the 4 year olds are going to hell? What about 6 year olds? 9 and 1/2 year olds?

Where do I end? Really? It has nothing to do with what I deem acceptable or not. Thank Goodness for that.

It is up to Christ. He was given the power to judge and will do so in the most righteous way possible and there will be no way, who or how to contest His awesome credentials to do so.

HighwayMan said:
In a number of countries, including America I believe, you are not considered mature and responsible enough to have your first can of beer before you turn 21. Are you old enough to decide your eternal destiny before you are old enough to have a Millers Light?

Again, it is not what man or any men deem as the acceptable metrics.... It is Christ's and Christ alone who will determine these things.

HighwayMan said:
And mentally disabled people. The variations of this are endless. There are some who are utterly incapable of understanding anything. They may be smaller in number. But then there are some who may be able to grasp basic concepts; others who might successfully finish the earliest grades in school; some who may even hold a basic job...but struggle intensely with a variety of learning-related difficulties, with their memory, with discerning things etc. the ways the human brain can go wrong are almost endless, and affects a massive amount of people. I know many.

Again, it will be Christ who judges who is with or without excuse.

HighwayMan said:
I really can't imagine a scenario where some get a pass because they were "way too bad," but others - "well, at least you could count to 10, so...no excuses. Time for hell."

Well you better get used to accepting that. This is exactly what will happen. Some will be accepted and some will be "found lacking"

All I can do, and you, yourself, is to ensure that I am not found lacking and instruct my loved ones and people I come in contact with that there will be a day of reckoning and there WILL be weeping and gnashing of teeth. You can count on it.

HighwayMan said:
And in any case, all these people definitely make up a large enough percentage of humanity to call for more thought and discussion than people usually give this topic.

This is interesting. You are making the call. You are saying that there must be too many of these people for them to just get a free pass due to the simple fact that they have no ability to comprehend right from wrong, or in some cases, what that thing at the end of their arm is... if they knew that their arm was called an arm.

HighwayMan said:
But so, if some of these people go to heaven, they would have gone to heaven without believing in Jesus Christ in this life, as they never heard about Jesus Christ. So it would make the statements that "Having faith in Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven" factually incorrect. You cannot both have "the only way" and "but there are also other ways" at the same time.

You're assuming that the same rules apply to those who "are without excuse" as to those have no concept of right and wrong.

Again, this is man trying to think like they are God.

HighwayMan said:
I agree with the rest, I wouldn't believe baptism is the deciding factor for anyone's soul.

Well there we go, we can agree on some things.

HighwayMan · Dec 2, 2016

JacksBratt said:
This is still a mute point. What does God and Christ do? Say "wow, there are way too many humans that never reached a point of mental ability to comprehend their sin. This is too much. Better send some to hell" ?????

We are not privy to the size of Heaven or the number of souls that will make it there. The number of children or mentally inept is of no consequence when the rules Christ sets for their salvation are in play.

Where do I end? Really? It has nothing to do with what I deem acceptable or not. Thank Goodness for that.

It is up to Christ. He was given the power to judge and will do so in the most righteous way possible and there will be no way, who or how to contest His awesome credentials to do so.

Again, it is not what man or any men deem as the acceptable metrics.... It is Christ's and Christ alone who will determine these things.

Again, it will be Christ who judges who is with or without excuse.

Well you better get used to accepting that. This is exactly what will happen. Some will be accepted and some will be "found lacking"

All I can do, and you, yourself, is to ensure that I am not found lacking and instruct my loved ones and people I come in contact with that there will be a day of reckoning and there WILL be weeping and gnashing of teeth. You can count on it.

This is interesting. You are making the call. You are saying that there must be too many of these people for them to just get a free pass due to the simple fact that they have no ability to comprehend right from wrong, or in some cases, what that thing at the end of their arm is... if they knew that their arm was called an arm.

Well there we go, we can agree on some things.

You misunderstand then. When I typed "you" I am not referring personally to you. I simply meant in general, where will the line be. It is perfectly fine to say "well God will decide," but this thread is about discussing what could potentially happen. We could have ended this entire thread with just one post about the infants: "Well God will decide," and that's that, convo over. But there are 6 pages of discussion over this that have developed.

All I am saying is if the infants deserve a discussion about whether or not they are going to hell, there is a lot - a lot - a lot of other individuals in other circumstances that also deserve to be thought about too.

You're assuming that the same rules apply to those who "are without excuse" as to those have no concept of right and wrong.

Again, this is man trying to think like they are God.

This though, I have an issue with. How on Earth am I "thinking I am like God" because I ask a logistical question?

And logically it does not work to make a statement about how "only Jesus is the way" and then immediately add "but for some people there are different rules." You can say "for some people, Jesus is the only way, it depends on the circumstance" and then you can add all these exceptions about infants, mentally challenged people etc. But a statement in which "there is only one way" means there are no exceptions.

JacksBratt · Dec 2, 2016

HighwayMan said:
You misunderstand then. When I typed "you" I am not referring personally to you. I simply meant in general, where will the line be. It is perfectly fine to say "well God will decide," but this thread is about discussing what could potentially happen. We could have ended this entire thread with just one post about the infants: "Well God will decide," and that's that, convo over. But there are 6 pages of discussion over this that have developed.

All I am saying is if the infants deserve a discussion about whether or not they are going to hell, there is a lot - a lot - a lot of other individuals in other circumstances that also deserve to be thought about too.

This though, I have an issue with. How on Earth am I "thinking I am like God" because I ask a logistical question?

And logically it does not work to make a statement about how "only Jesus is the way" and then immediately add "but for some people there are different rules." You can say "for some people, Jesus is the only way, it depends on the circumstance" and then you can add all these exceptions about infants, mentally challenged people etc. But a statement in which "there is only one way" means there are no exceptions.

This whole concept is bizarre.

I mean really, a loving creator who came to earth and died for me, and I am to question whether or not one of His precious creations, who cannot even understand right and wrong, is going to be eternally punished for that which it is unaware of?

Do you discipline your infant for messing it's diaper? Spitting up on your clothes? Not sitting up in the bathtub ? Crying all night?

I certainly hope not. The child is doing what every child does. It knows no better.

So, if you will not discipline your child for these natural behaviors, how can you conceive that God, who is love personified, would condemn even one of these innocent creations to eternal torment, for not recognizing Him as the Christ and repenting. That is ludicrous.

As for "thinking I am like God", my quote was:

"this is man trying to think like they are God"

See the difference? Thinking they are like God
Thinking like they are God.

My argument is that we are having a discussion, as men, about a concept that will be totally decided by the wisdom of God.

We, as humans, cannot scratch the surface of deciding who is now capable of being held "without excuse" and who is innocent of any crime against God due to their utter lack of cognitive capabilities about anything in the universe.

This is way above our pay scale. What age a child becomes accountable. For one, it may be 8, another 12 another..never.

Let's look at the passage again:

Romans 1:20-2121st Century King James Version (KJ21)

20 For from the creation of the world the invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood through the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

21 For when they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God, nor were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

I see absolutely no possibility for the children and handicapped people we are talking about to "understand" or the have ability to "know God". They can then not possibly "become vain" or have "foolish hearts" that can be darkened.

How, then, can they be held "without excuse"?

JacksBratt · Dec 2, 2016

ladodgers6 said:
Psalms 51:5 is David knowing we have no excuse before a Holy God. Because from birth we all are formed in sin. This is due to the first Adam. This is called the imputation of Adam sin to his progeny in Romans 5. I am still doing my homework and researching it. But thanks for your comments.

The absolute best scripture for this topic is right here:

2 Samuel 12:20-23New Century Version (NCV)
20 Then David got up from the floor, washed himself, put lotions on, and changed his clothes. Then he went into the Lord’s house to worship. After that, he went home and asked for something to eat. His servants gave him some food, and he ate.

21 David’s servants said to him, “Why are you doing this? When the baby was still alive, you fasted and you cried. Now that the baby is dead, you get up and eat food.”

22 David said, “While the baby was still alive, I fasted, and I cried. I thought, ‘Who knows? Maybe the Lord will feel sorry for me and let the baby live.’ 23 But now that the baby is dead, why should I fast? I can’t bring him back to life. Someday I will go to him, but he cannot come back to me.”

So, unless you believe King David, a man after God's heart, is going to hell, his infant child has gone to paradise.
If God does this for Davids child, is he not going to do it for all the children that suffer the same demise?
Rest assured, your wife's miscarried baby, your relatives aborted baby, your friends autistic adult son, your neighbors baby that died of SIDS..........all in heaven.

HighwayMan · Dec 2, 2016

JacksBratt said:
This whole concept is bizarre.

I mean really, a loving creator who came to earth and died for me, and I am to question whether or not one of His precious creations, who cannot even understand right and wrong, is going to be eternally punished for that which it is unaware of?

Do you discipline your infant for messing it's diaper? Spitting up on your clothes? Not sitting up in the bathtub ? Crying all night?

I certainly hope not. The child is doing what every child does. It knows no better.

So, if you will not discipline your child for these natural behaviors, how can you conceive that God, who is love personified, would condemn even one of these innocent creations to eternal torment, for not recognizing Him as the Christ and repenting. That is ludicrous.

As for "thinking I am like God", my quote was:

"this is man trying to think like they are God"

See the difference? Thinking they are like God
Thinking like they are God.

My argument is that we are having a discussion, as men, about a concept that will be totally decided by the wisdom of God.

We, as humans, cannot scratch the surface of deciding who is now capable of being held "without excuse" and who is innocent of any crime against God due to their utter lack of cognitive capabilities about anything in the universe.

This is way above our pay scale. What age a child becomes accountable. For one, it may be 8, another 12 another..never.

Let's look at the passage again:

Romans 1:20-2121st Century King James Version (KJ21)

20 For from the creation of the world the invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood through the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

21 For when they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God, nor were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

I see absolutely no possibility for the children and handicapped people we are talking about to "understand" or the have ability to "know God". They can then not possibly "become vain" or have "foolish hearts" that can be darkened.

How, then, can they be held "without excuse"?

The misunderstanding seems to be running even deeper if you believe that I am somehow arguing that I personally believe that infants will be in hell.

I have never even remotely suggested such a thing.

What I am saying, is that if people believe Jesus is the only way to heaven, then logistically speaking, it does not work to be adding exceptions to that, be in infants or anyone else.

If you believe that there is no way infants, mentally ill, + possibly others are going to hell - then the mainstream narrative of "Jesus is the only way" does not work.

JacksBratt · Dec 2, 2016

HighwayMan said:
The misunderstanding seems to be running even deeper if you believe that I am somehow arguing that I personally believe that infants will be in hell.

I have never even remotely suggested such a thing.

What I am saying, is that if people believe Jesus is the only way to heaven, then logistically speaking, it does not work to be adding exceptions to that, be in infants or anyone else.

If you believe that there is no way infants, mentally ill, + possibly others are going to hell - then the mainstream narrative of "Jesus is the only way" does not work.

If you don't hold to the view that mentally incapable and those too young to comprehend right and wrong, will go to heaven due to the fact that they cannot be included as those who are "without excuse"?

Why argue the point?

sdowney717 · Dec 2, 2016

HighwayMan said:
The misunderstanding seems to be running even deeper if you believe that I am somehow arguing that I personally believe that infants will be in hell.

I have never even remotely suggested such a thing.

What I am saying, is that if people believe Jesus is the only way to heaven, then logistically speaking, it does not work to be adding exceptions to that, be in infants or anyone else.

If you believe that there is no way infants, mentally ill, + possibly others are going to hell - then the mainstream narrative of "Jesus is the only way" does not work.

The word says 'little ones who believe in Me'
Consider then the little ones actually do believe in Christ, perhaps this is revealed to them by God into the spirits before they die.
Paul had a special revelation too. You can not say little children do not also get this revelation.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. That faith actually comes by hearing God speak to you directly to your inner man.
Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
Who taught God to Noah or Paul? No one did. They heard direct from the Father.
Since you do not know what the Spirit is speaking to another person and this does happen scripturally, His Spirit to our spirit, then you can not say it does not happen to them.

Matthew 18:6
But whoso shall cause one of these little ones who believe in Me to fall, it were better for him that a millstone were hung about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Mark 9:42
And whosoever shall cause one of these little ones that believe in Me to fall, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck and he were cast into the sea.

Since God ordains our every day according to His will, He then ordains the time of our birth and the time of our death.

sdowney717 · Dec 2, 2016

Scripture speaking of those who will be saved, being predestined to salvation is said of them this...

Psalm 139:16New King James Version (NKJV)
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.

ladodgers6 · Dec 3, 2016

JacksBratt said:
This whole concept is bizarre.

I mean really, a loving creator who came to earth and died for me, and I am to question whether or not one of His precious creations, who cannot even understand right and wrong, is going to be eternally punished for that which it is unaware of?

Do you discipline your infant for messing it's diaper? Spitting up on your clothes? Not sitting up in the bathtub ? Crying all night?

I certainly hope not. The child is doing what every child does. It knows no better.

So, if you will not discipline your child for these natural behaviors, how can you conceive that God, who is love personified, would condemn even one of these innocent creations to eternal torment, for not recognizing Him as the Christ and repenting. That is ludicrous.

As for "thinking I am like God", my quote was:

"this is man trying to think like they are God"

See the difference? Thinking they are like God
Thinking like they are God.

My argument is that we are having a discussion, as men, about a concept that will be totally decided by the wisdom of God.

We, as humans, cannot scratch the surface of deciding who is now capable of being held "without excuse" and who is innocent of any crime against God due to their utter lack of cognitive capabilities about anything in the universe.

This is way above our pay scale. What age a child becomes accountable. For one, it may be 8, another 12 another..never.

Let's look at the passage again:

Romans 1:20-2121st Century King James Version (KJ21)

20 For from the creation of the world the invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood through the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

21 For when they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God, nor were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

I see absolutely no possibility for the children and handicapped people we are talking about to "understand" or the have ability to "know God". They can then not possibly "become vain" or have "foolish hearts" that can be darkened.

How, then, can they be held "without excuse"?[/QUOTE]

I know what you are feeling, right now. This is a common consensus among people today. Ask a non-Christian, if they believe in Hell, most would agree. But then ask them about how many do they think are going there, will be on the low end. And this is incorrect, because we do not see, that it is not God's fault that we are in this mess. Beyond our abilities to fix. By One Man's trespass bought death & condemnation upon us all (Romans 5); because of our Union in Adam; we are his offspring; formed in sin from birth (Psalms 51:5)! Understand this then you will understand our condition before a Holy, Righteous God. Who commanded Adam not eat of the fruit, or you will surely die. God did not force Adam to eat. Adam ate by his own free-will. It was Satan to deceived Adam. And who keeps deceiving children of this evil age. The pain and suffering is the first Adam's failure to keep God's Law, by fulfilling it with perfect obedience and Love.

The most Glorious thing though is God's Love to save sinners from this pain & suffering and release us from this present evil age. And from the curse of death & condemnation we are under. By sending His Only begotten Son to take our place, and He places us in His place before the Holy Righteous Judge. And this is done 'FREELY' and given to us as a gift from God. The Second Adam comes into history, born in the flesh, under the Law. To kill sin in the flesh, and to fulfill the commandments of God by fulfilling it through His Perfect obedience. Then our sins (all of them are imputed/given/ to Christ, and Christ's righteousness & holiness is given to us because of God's Love for us (Cor. 1:30). Christ takes upon His Own head the full wrath of God because of One Man's sin. But because of One Man Act of righteousness we are saved! Understand that it is our fault and nobody else's, because Satan is doing everything to destroy this Glorious Good News for sinners, by telling them that it is God's fault not ours! This will blur and destroy the good news when Satan deceives people in thinking they are good, and God is unfair.

I started this thread, because somebody else bought this up. I am still doing my homework and researching it.

ladodgers6 · Dec 3, 2016

JacksBratt said:
The absolute best scripture for this topic is right here:

2 Samuel 12:20-23New Century Version (NCV)
20 Then David got up from the floor, washed himself, put lotions on, and changed his clothes. Then he went into the Lord’s house to worship. After that, he went home and asked for something to eat. His servants gave him some food, and he ate.

21 David’s servants said to him, “Why are you doing this? When the baby was still alive, you fasted and you cried. Now that the baby is dead, you get up and eat food.”

22 David said, “While the baby was still alive, I fasted, and I cried. I thought, ‘Who knows? Maybe the Lord will feel sorry for me and let the baby live.’ 23 But now that the baby is dead, why should I fast? I can’t bring him back to life. Someday I will go to him, but he cannot come back to me.”

So, unless you believe King David, a man after God's heart, is going to hell, his infant child has gone to paradise.
If God does this for Davids child, is he not going to do it for all the children that suffer the same demise?
Rest assured, your wife's miscarried baby, your relatives aborted baby, your friends autistic adult son, your neighbors baby that died of SIDS..........all in heaven.

I will read and studying these passages. I want to go over the entire Chapter to understand it. My brain is tired, so I will follow up on this tomorrow.

sandpiper22 · Dec 4, 2016

ladodgers6 said:
Thanks for your comments. Please explain Psalms 51:5.

Hi.
Here is the Scripture you quoted:

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Well, Scripture says that from the foundation of the world, God, in His mercy and grace, elected a people for Heaven (Rev. 13:8, Eph. 1:4). These people like every human being after Adam will be born dead in trespasses and sins, that is, contrary to popular preaching, they did not inherit a spiritually dead nature from Adam. Adam did not have spiritual life that died when he sinned. He was able to converse face to face with God, because he had not sinned at that point until he disobeyed the law at Eden (not eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil). When he did, from then on, his nature was corrupted and everyone of his descendants were born dead in sin and trespasses, their natural state is to be at enmity with God, and this includes the elect, and the elect include those whom God in His omniscience knows will die in infancy or at birth, for various reasons.

In that sense, everyone of us was "shapen" (in the natural process of fetal formation).

LaSorcia · Dec 4, 2016

I think they're saved the same way any of us are: by God's mercy.

How are infants saved?

Well-Known Member

Searching for Truth

Well-Known Member

Searching for Truth

Well-Known Member

Know what you believe and why you believe it

Well-Known Member

Know what you believe and why you believe it

Searching for Truth

Well-Known Member

Searching for Truth

Searching for Truth

Well-Known Member

Searching for Truth

Newbie

Newbie

Know what you believe and why you believe it

Know what you believe and why you believe it

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency