DoubtfulSalvation
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hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.....hjah.ahahahahahah.......Sorry.
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We are born with the sin nature but as Romans 4:15 and Romans 5:13 say, if we do not have the law there is no sin. God is not a tyrant arbitrarily killing people.
Hebrew 9:27
In the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah, if God had only destroyed the adults who would have cared for the surviving infants and children?
We are born with the sin nature but as Romans 4:15 and Romans 5:13 say, if we do not have the law there is no sin. God is not a tyrant arbitrarily killing people.
I came across this question in another thread. Want people to post their thoughts and Scripture to support it. Is there a age limit before they can be held accountable? Do infants get a pass? Do you believe in infant baptism?
When unborn children, babies, and toddlers die, they go to Heaven. We are all fallen, but God doesn't judge our "nature", rather, He judges us on the basis of what we do (say and think) according to the Law (be it the Law He gave to Moses, or be it the law that is written upon each of our hearts .. if the Law of Moses is unknown to the person being judged).
The person being "judged" must also be able to understand the Law, and he/she must be able to truly understand right from wrong. Toddlers are not capable of doing either, neither are babies or unborn children (obviously), so they will not be judged.
12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.Yours and His,
13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. ~Romans 2
David
I came across this question in another thread. Want people to post their thoughts and Scripture to support it. Is there a age limit before they can be held accountable? Do infants get a pass? Do you believe in infant baptism?
That is not a Calvinist belief, since it denies total depravity.
Yes, I agree with everything you have said. But since the infant cannot profess faith, the infant can be saved through the professed Faith our their parents. (Acts 16)Same way as anyone else: through the divine and sovereign election of God by His grace and mercy.
The "Age of Accountability" is something you will not find in scripture.
No, infant do not get a "pass", because the Bible says that all have been born with the Adamic nature (i.e. born into sin [Psalm 51])
No, I do not believe in infant baptism as a doctrine of the Bible. And Baptism is not a requirement for salvation. When baptism is presented in the Bible, it is always with those who profess faith in Jesus Christ. An infant has no ability to profess faith in Jesus Christ.
The same way His people, in all parts of the world, in all segments of time, pre the cross, and post the cross, were saved...through His shed blood, elect ACCORDING to His foreknowledge (key word: foreknowledge, which is knowing beforehand therefore covered by his omniscience and Sovereign grace). Do infants get a pass ? There is nothing in the Bible that says God condemned the un-elect (yes I am a strong believer in Sovereign Electing Grace) because of their fallen nature, but that at the Great White Throne judgment, those who were cast into the lake of fire were cast there based, or according to three things: A book was opened, which is the Book of Life, and if your name was not there, you're toast. This Book of Life was the final dot on the judgment of their works, which I presume was read from the other two books (Revelation 20). So, an elect child of God is given a new nature (regenerated) when God says He is to have it, not when the sinner says he wants it (accepting Christ and all that modern pop jazz), and since in His omniscience He knows everything, He knows when an infant is to die and based on that knowledge (a foreknowledge which He possessed about the infant from the foundation of the world) that infant's fallen nature is replaced with a new one, and whisked away to be with Him.
Infant baptism is irrelevant to one's eternal standing.
Is physical death the end or is there something after?Hi der alter,
That's true, but I don't see how it relates to the issue at hand. Is it your position that God was doing them a favor to drown in the rising water because their parents were all going to die?
Anyway, all of this is now guess work. I'm perfectly satisfied to say that I don't really know how infants and children will be handled on the day of God's judgment, apart from just how everyone else is handled. Will they receive some special dispensation of God's mercy? Maybe, but I can't confirm that through the Scriptures.
From what I understand from the Scriptures, there will be 'few' who gain eternal life and 'many' who will be cast apart from God. Will those 'many' include all the children and infants? I don't know. I know that God's ways are not my ways and while you and I in our human nature with human emotions may feel great sorrow for what we believe to be innocent children, after all, they're just little ones of us, I'm not sure that God shares those same emotions and understandings of little 'us's'. It could well be that when God establishes the great city of Zion that we read of in the last chapters of the Revelation that all He will have with Him there will be adults who have made the choice to love Him. Those adults will who have chosen to love Him will be His people and He will be their God.
What I also know is that God's word tells me that we won't have any remembrance of the things of old. So, however it works out with the infants and children, we aren't going to suffer angst or sorrow about it in those days. On this side of eternity I'm willing to allow God to be God. I know that however it works out, it will be just and righteous...according to God.
However, in our humanness and desire to make death seem such a glorious thing, we comfort those who have lost loved ones, whether young or old, with words that tell them that their loved one is with God. Honestly, there's not a person on the earth today, nor has ever been, except for the Lord, who will ever know who else gains God's promise of eternal life before the day of God's judgment. We can know for ourselves, but no one knows the heart of another, but God alone.
God bless you,
In Christ, Ted
When unborn children, babies, and toddlers die, they go to Heaven.
Yes, I agree with everything you have said. But since the infant cannot profess faith, the infant can be saved through the professed Faith our their parents. (Acts 16)
31And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Is physical death the end or is there something after?
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Heb 9:27 includes all of mankind. All those you listed above will be judged by God on what they could reasonably know.
An infant is saved just by the fact that it is in no way shape or form capable of understanding the concept of salvation, or the need for it. It cannot be held accountable.Yes, I agree with everything you have said. But since the infant cannot profess faith, the infant can be saved through the professed Faith our their parents. (Acts 16)
31And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Hi der alter,
Well, so long as you understand that the 'could reasonably know' part is not a part of the Scriptures. The Scriptures merely say that it is appointed unto man once to die and then judgment. Absolutely no qualifications as to what that judgment will be based on or how it will be applied. However, if we read and understand the whole of the Scriptures, then we do know what ultimately will qualify one for eternal life with God: The Lamb's Book of Life.
Now, in order for your position to be true, then everyone who is ever born starts out with their name written in the Lamb's Book of Life. However, when they are older and they sin, then their name is blotted out. When they repent and turn to God, their name is reinserted.
I think it also good to understand what Jesus said to Nicodemus. "Ye must be born again." So again, the same principle would apply. As we start life we are born again. When we later sin we are not. When we turn to God we are then born again. Personally, I think the whole problem stems from our thinking that God is like us. He feels and operates under the same emotional ties that we do. I don't think that's a correct understanding of who God is.
I believe that the Scriptures delineate a plan whereby God, through His Son, is building a royal priesthood of people who love Him. That those people will have confessed and shown their love and trust in who He is. I don't think that infants and young children have that capacity or ability to understand such a thing. Therefore, my understanding is that we all, you, me, your neighbor, your spouse, your parents, all begin life lost to God because of the sin of Adam. As we grow and mature, God has given us an opportunity and all the information that we need to desire to know Him and to love Him.
As a human being, yes, I too understand and appreciate the same emotional feelings about poor little innocent babies that other human beings have. I'm just not convinced, through the Scriptures, that God operates under those same emotional feelings about people. As a human being, someone is nice to me and bakes me a cake for my birthday, I sure want them to be in heaven. God however, isn't particularly impressed, as I understand the Scriptures, that such a person who was nice to me, deserves eternal life. They need to be nice to me and they need to love God. Infants especially, and young children, don't really operate under the two laws that Jesus said those who are his will operate under. Yes, they may be innocent as regards having actually committed some sin, but no, they haven't kept the law. They haven't trusted or believed God. They haven't been born again. They are merely small human beings that we feel an emotional attachment to because they are little 'us's'.
Your position seems to be that because they have no cognitive awareness of any of this, that they are innocent to God and deserve His gift of eternal life. I, personally, don't find any evidence to support such a position in the Scriptures.
Now, maybe you're right and I'm wrong. But, as far as being able to prove such a position through the Scriptures, I don't think it can be done. However, God has also said, "I will have mercy on whom I will." That, to me, would be the only claim of God made in the Scriptures that would open the door to those without the capacity to know Him and love Him, to receive His gift of eternal life with Him. After all, God chose to work out His plan beginning with Abram, but didn't declare Abram righteous until he had shown that he believed God.
So, for me, I'm perfectly willing to wait and see just exactly how God handles His day of judgment and who will be declared worthy. But, as far as teaching some 'truth' of God, I'd have to be able to support it through the only testimony I have of God's truth: His word. As I've oft repeated, His ways are not our ways. We are warned not to lean on our own understanding. Paul once said to a man that if he would confess Jesus as Lord, that he and his whole household would be saved. That pretty clearly tells me that Paul didn't consider anyone in the man's household already saved by virtue of their ignorance or lack of knowledge of God.
God bless you,
In Christ, Ted
Okay, but you cannot exclude infants. So tell me, were the Israelite's infants saved in the OT? How? Why?I disagree [professed faith of parents]. I find nothing in the context of Acts 16 that indicates that there were infants in the Jailer's household.
That is an argument from silence. Moreover, it would be more of an indicator that the Jailer gets saved, goes back home and proclaims the gospel to his family, and through hearing the gospel, his family will be saved as they come to believe in Jesus Christ, by God's grace.
Acts 16:32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.
There are no other passages in scripture that specifically says an infant is saved by the professed faith of their parents.
An infant is saved just by the fact that it is in no way shape or form capable of understanding the concept of salvation, or the need for it. It cannot be held accountable.
The scripture states:
Romans 1:18-20King James Version (KJV)
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
An infant or child cannot be included in the bolded part that states:
who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Infants and children have no capability to understand or hold the truth in unrighteousness. That which may be known of God, is not comprehended by them. God has not had the ability to show it unto them.
Infants, young children and those who never reach a cognitive state where they understand the concept of salvation, sin and salvation can therefore not be included in those that "are without excuse"
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