How accurate is the following description (Vineyard) ...?

[JimB]

How accurate is the following description of the Vineyard (from Wikipedia)?

The Vineyard Movement is a combination renewal and church planting movement which can also be considered a Christian denomination. While often considered charismatic, some members prefer the term empowered evangelicals (a reference to the book Empowered Evangelicals by Vineyard pastors Rich Nathan and Ken Wilson) to reflect their roots in traditional Evangelicalism, as opposed to historic Pentecostalism (though members sometimes describe themselves as the radical middle between the two, this comes from the book The Quest for the Radical Middle by Bill Jackson , a survey of the Vineyard's history). Vineyard philosophy has also played a key role in the development of transformationalism. Among conservatives and fundamentalists, the Vineyard Movement is controversial because it teaches doctrines they feel are unorthodox.

John Wimber was the leading founder of the movement, who split with Calvary Chapel in 1982. The movement suffered through some hard times after Wimber's death in 1997, but has been growing steadily since appointing Bert Waggoner as president of the Association in 2000. As of 2005, The Association of Vineyard Churches includes over 1,200 churches across the world. It also runs a publishing house and a music production company.

• Vineyard International Consortium
• Vineyard Music
• Vineyard Churches Canada
• The Association of Vineyard Churches - South Africa
• Vineyard Churches UK
• Vineyard USA
• Vineyard Benelux
• Vineyard Nordic

 

[Sabertooth]

How accurate is the following description of the Vineyard (from Wikipedia)?

The Vineyard Movement is a combination renewal and church planting movement which can also be considered a Christian denomination. While often considered charismatic, some members prefer the term empowered evangelicals (a reference to the book Empowered Evangelicals by Vineyard pastors Rich Nathan and Ken Wilson) to reflect their roots in traditional Evangelicalism, as opposed to historic Pentecostalism (though members sometimes describe themselves as the radical middle between the two, this comes from the book The Quest for the Radical Middle by Bill Jackson , a survey of the Vineyard's history). Vineyard philosophy has also played a key role in the development of transformationalism. Among conservatives and fundamentalists, the Vineyard Movement is controversial because it teaches doctrines they feel are unorthodox.

John Wimber was the leading founder of the movement, who split with Calvary Chapel in 1982. The movement suffered through some hard times after Wimber's death in 1997, but has been growing steadily since appointing Bert Waggoner as president of the Association in 2000. As of 2005, The Association of Vineyard Churches includes over 1,200 churches across the world. It also runs a publishing house and a music production company.

• Vineyard International Consortium
• Vineyard Music
• Vineyard Churches Canada
• The Association of Vineyard Churches - South Africa
• Vineyard Churches UK
• Vineyard USA
• Vineyard Benelux
• Vineyard Nordic

I have been around the Vineyard for a while. Shortly after being saved in '77, I went to "Chapel by the Sea" [Oxnard, CA] where Steve Robbins was pastor. It was already acting like a Vineyard and later became one.

Because I moved many times, since, I have been in and out of Vineyard. I missed Toronto and labels like "Empowered Evangelicals" and "Radical Middle." These labels would apply very well.

I think the fundamentalists are MORE critical of us because they have always been critical of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, even among Pentecostals. But to actually concern ourselves with the Great Commission [their schtick] AND bring those "heretical" gifts along in the process was unheard of. Those Pentecostals over there aren't so bad. But, come on, baptizing new converts in the Holy Spirit...! Not music to the ears of dyed-in-the-wool dispensationalists.

As for transformationalism, this definition includes ecumenicalism which has not been my experience. They are tolerant where the Bible is silent, but since the ministry has included deliverance in the past, they have been resistant to religious spirits. These days our church seems over-cautious, but that is probably from being burned by Toronto.

 

[kooolfriend]

All that I know of vineyard is their music, which I love...
You american love to brand anything, for me macdonald and kentucky fried chicken are just fried chicken but of different companies... I guess that’s a comment from an ignorant one...

 

[Naomi4Christ]

The article didn't mention 'servant evangelism'

 

[TreeOfLife]

I think John Wimber would have been disappointed to see it being labeled a denomination.

 

[NacDan]

I think John Wimber would have been disappointed to see it being labeled a denomination.

Disappointed or not, the lable is accurate. Once you combine all your independent non-denominational churches into an association, publish a Statement of Faith and a Theological and Philosophical Statement, you can't honestly say you are non-denominational anymore.

If you don't think the Vineyard is a denomination, look at the requirements to start a Vineyard church or look at the requirements to convert your current assembly to a Vineyard. Smacks of denominationalism!

Allow God to bless you today!
Danny

 

[JesusPhreek]

Myself, Id love to hear more about Vineyard. Was just talking last night to someone from San Fran that is vineyard

 

[TreeOfLife]

Disappointed or not, the lable is accurate. Once you combine all your independent non-denominational churches into an association, publish a Statement of Faith and a Theological and Philosophical Statement, you can't honestly say you are non-denominational anymore.

If you don't think the Vineyard is a denomination, look at the requirements to start a Vineyard church or look at the requirements to convert your current assembly to a Vineyard. Smacks of denominationalism!

Allow God to bless you today!
Danny

Yeah, but I know that a great deal of effort was put into setting up the Association in order to try and actually prevent what has happened mostly just since his death. (but was actually begun by the Toronto Blessing)

And when I say effort to prevent denominationalizing, I don't mean lip service either. Wimber knew the forces that would try to idolize the organization in an effort to render it impotent were the biggest threat to Vineyard.

 

[JimB]

Yeah, but I know that a great deal of effort was put into setting up the Association in order to try and actually prevent what has happened mostly just since his death. (but was actually begun by the Toronto Blessing)

And when I say effort to prevent denominationalizing, I don't mean lip service either. Wimber knew the forces that would try to idolize the organization in an effort to render it impotent were the biggest threat to Vineyard.

This is news to me. The national director of the AVC, Bert Waggoner, is a long-time personal friend of 25 years and the pastor of the planting church which sponsors our church plant – IOW, he is my pastor. He and all Vineyard pastors recognize the simple fact that we are a denomination. That means we have a central office, statement of faith and interrelational fellowship but it does not mean that we like the centralized and political denominational structures that have made denominations, um, denominational. Our churches and pastors operate with a great deal of autonomy but somehow our DNA remains similar.

As for John Wimber, he has been deceased for almost a decade now and it has been a new day in the Vineyard for a while now. Most Vineyard pastors today came into the denomination post-Wimber and most Vineyard churches of today were not in existence when he was alive. We are called pioneers and homesteaders. I am among the larger 'homesteaders' who came into the Vineyard post-Wimber and, therefore, am not as married to the Vineyard that once clearly reflected John Wimber’s values and beliefs. As much as I respect who he was, I probably could not have been Vineyard while he was at the helm. Bert Waggoner, who was close to Wimber, however, is his own man and a totally different type of leader. His needed influence is bringing the Vineyard more to grips with its theology than with the experimental experientialism that once led the Vineyard into incompatible associations with Kansas City and Toronto and, IMO, soiled the Vineyard name. It is an identity we have been trying distance ourselves from for years but, unfortunately, are still seen as a less mature movement.

IOW, homesteaders and not pioneers. The Vineyard of today is hardly the Vineyard of its pioneer founders. Hopefully, we are maturing. We are definitiely growing; so much so that the Vineyard is among the most, if not the most rapidly expanding denomination in the world.

~Jim

 

[SNPete]

I think John Wimber would have been disappointed to see it being labeled a denomination.

Both Calvary Chapel and Vineyard like to play the word game of not being a denomination. It is kind of a hippy, uncool thing for them to be a "denomination". It is what your parents did, but not ME cause I am hip, anti-establishment. How 1960s.

Silly people. Where you have 1000 plus churches under the covering of a central office, with one name and a set of spriritual guidelines, then by golly you have a denomination! This D word is not a bad thing. Get over it. You are what you are.

 

[JimB]

Both Calvary Chapel and Vineyard like to play the word game of not being a denomination. It is kind of a hippy, uncool thing for them to be a "denomination". It is what your parents did, but not ME cause I am hip, anti-establishment. How 1960s.

Silly people. Where you have 1000 plus churches under the covering of a central office, with one name and a set of spriritual guidelines, then by golly you have a denomination! This D word is not a bad thing. Get over it. You are what you are.

Where do you get your information, Pete? Have you visited a Vineayard lately? (I will let Calvary Chapel speak for themselves,) Didn't you read my previous post?

No one I know in the Vineyard – and I am a Vineyard pastor – denies the fact that we are a denomination by every shade of the definition. We can be a denomination and still not be victim to denominationalism (whatever that is). And where did you get your "hippie" stereotype and why would you use it? Personally, I don't know any hippies (though I know quite a few ex-hippies).

~Jim

 

[SNPete]

Where do you get your information, Pete? Have you visited a Vineayard lately? (I will let Calvary Chapel speak for themselves,) Didn't you read my previous post?

No one I know in the Vineyard – and I am a Vineyard pastor – denies the fact that we are a denomination by every shade of the definition. We can be a denomination and still not be victim to denominationalism (whatever that is). And where did you get your "hippie" stereotype and why would you use it? Personally, I don't know any hippies (though I know quite a few ex-hippies).

~Jim

Personal experience.

Perhaps things have changed in the last year or two. If you don't hold the non denom view I say great and stand corrected as far as your body is concerned. From what you say, it would appear that my statement is pointed more at Clavary. Glad to see things have lightened up at Vineyard. Sorry for my dated experience. I have only visited three or four Vineyards in the last 5 years while on vacation. I like to visit different churches when I travel.

 

[JimB]

Personal experience.

Perhaps things have changed in the last year or two. If you don't hold the non denom view I say great and stand corrected as far as your body is concerned. From what you say, it would appear that my statement is pointed more at Clavary. Glad to see things have lightened up at Vineyard. Sorry for my dated experience. I have only visited three or four Vineyards in the last 5 years while on vacation. I like to visit different churches when I travel.

No problem, Pete. We hear this all the time.

~Jim

 

[NacDan]

I like to visit different churches when I travel.

Next trip to East Texas, visit the "oldest town in Texas" (Nacogdoches) and visit the (formerly) Old Town Vineyard Christian Fellowship (I say 'formerly' because we dropped the 'Old Town' thinking it sounded like "old time" and we are anything BUT old time...LOL...now it's just the Vineyard Christian Fellowship).

I'll personally see to it you have a great experience.

Danny

 

[JimB]

I would suggest, if you are looking for information about the Vineyard, you include their websites at www.vineyardusa.org or www.vineyard.org in your research and not just listen to the critics. I/we have done that with those I/we disagree and would like the same consideration. Just quoting the selective truth of dishonest detractors does no one any good on either side of the issues.

~Jim

 

[TreeOfLife]

I would suggest, if you are looking for information about the Vineyard, you include their websites at www.vineyardusa.org or www.vineyard.org in your research and not just listen to the critics. I/we have done that with those I/we disagree and would like the same consideration. Just quoting the selective truth of dishonest detractors does no one any good on either side of the issues.

~Jim

Neither does demonizing anyone who would dare to speak in opposition to the "bleached white" version you are proposing.

 

[JimB]

Neither does demonizing anyone who would dare to speak in opposition to the "bleached white" version you are proposing.

Are you saying you have a problem with listening to both sides of an issue? (If so, that could explain a lot.)

I cannot imagine only listening to one side of a difference. I think that’s called a foregone conclusion or, worse yet, religious prejudice.

~Jim

 

[NewSong]

Hi Jim:

Danny posted something that is hard to find for the Vineyard and that is the Statement of faith and Theological & Philisophical statements of the Vineyard. They were not available at one time online and had to be ordered. I am most impressed. Though I have not attended a Vineyard Church, you are giving it a good reputation through your posts and another Vineyard Pastor who was kind enough to e-mail me.


In my area, once the Vineyard disassociated with Toronto and Kansas City, by John Wimber many years ago, Vineyard then received stigma that they did not believe in the
Holy Spirit working. Unfortunately, I was one of them that initially stigmatized Vineyard due to the write up in a certain popular charasmatic magazine.

Through your posts and my research, I would like to say that it is good to see and hear that the Holy Spirit is welcome in the Vineyard services and is most certainly using the Vineyard church to help people like me who were very frustrated when the break occured and only had people like John Arnot, magazines, Tommy Reid, and Mike Bickle and others to hear their side of things, which gave me my initial perspective. Though these leaders never bad mouthed anyone, it was well-known of the disassociation and so I ran from the "Vineyard" ....until I wondered what on earth all of the commotion was about.

You have provided a lot of information that most are not willing to discuss and I certainly am not disappointed with the results of my research along with your posts and I believe it is well-balanced.

I look forward to my first visit to a Vineyard Church.

Thank you for your many posts and they are good ones.

NS aka LilMissMuffett

 

[JimB]

Hi Jim:

Danny posted something that is hard to find for the Vineyard and that is the Statement of faith and Theological & Philisophical statements of the Vineyard. They were not available at one time online and had to be ordered. I am most impressed. Though I have not attended a Vineyard Church, you are giving it a good reputation through your posts and another Vineyard Pastor who was kind enough to e-mail me.

In my area, once the Vineyard disassociated with Toronto and Kansas City, by John Wimber many years ago, Vineyard then received stigma that they did not believe in the
Holy Spirit working. Unfortunately, I was one of them that initially stigmatized Vineyard due to the write up in a certain popular charasmatic magazine.

Through your posts and my research, I would like to say that it is good to see and hear that the Holy Spirit is welcome in the Vineyard services and is most certainly using the Vineyard church to help people like me who were very frustrated when the break occured and only had people like John Arnot, magazines, Tommy Reid, and Mike Bickle and others to hear their side of things, which gave me my initial perspective. Though these leaders never bad mouthed anyone, it was well-known of the disassociation and so I ran from the "Vineyard" ....until I wondered what on earth all of the commotion was about.

You have provided a lot of information that most are not willing to discuss and I certainly am not disappointed with the results of my research along with your posts and I believe it is well-balanced.

I look forward to my first visit to a Vineyard Church.

Thank you for your many posts and they are good ones.

NS aka LilMissMuffett

Thanks, LMM (formerly NS).

Here’s how to find the Vineyard Statement of Faith in ‘pdf’ format here (5 pages): http://www.vineyardusa.org/upload/Statement%20of%20Faith.pdf

You can find the Vineyard Theological and Philosophical Statements here (36 pages):

http://www.vineyardusa.org/upload/theological%20booklet%20rev%202004.pdf

You will need an Adobe reader to read ‘pdf’ files. If you do not have one, you can get a free Adobe download here: http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html

Any group has its detractors as well as its defenders and that’s why I posted this thread and the similar WOF one. It is time I (for one) start trying to find answers than to simply make charges. And I do have some tough questions for WOF’ers that deserve clear answers to and some may have tough questions for Vineyardites that I (and others) will be happy to attempt to answer.

Maybe we are closer in our beliefs than we suspect. But we will never know until we can discuss them without the heat they sometimes generate.

~Jim

 

[9-iron]

JimM, I will visit your church sometime this spring with all things permitting!

My question is how uniform are the Vineyard churches. Even though you recognize the denominatio tag, there still can be extreme differences. How strictly are you regulation as to what you teach and preach?