How accurate is the following description (Vineyard) ...?

[JimB]

JimM, I will visit your church sometime this spring with all things permitting!

My question is how uniform are the Vineyard churches. Even though you recognize the denominatio tag, there still can be extreme differences. How strictly are you regulation as to what you teach and preach?

That would be great, 9-I. I would really love to meet you. Be sure you let me know ahead of time because Stephanie and I will treat you and yours to lunch. If you will send me a PM, I will be happy to add your email address to our E-Newsletter email list and you can keep track of us. It cheesy by informative.

To answer your question: Vineyards, like churches in any denomination, are different, usually a reflection of the pastor. (I hope that statement will not prevent you from visiting us anyhow!) But there is a recognizable DNA in Vineyard churches and it usually has to do with the style of worship and music more than anything else. Somehow you know you are in a Vineyard even though it is not at all like the one you last visited. I can’t explain it – it’s better felt than tell’t. Some Vineyards leave good impressions and some leave, well, not as good ones.

Is there a Vineyard near you? You can find out by going to http://www.vineyardusa.org/churches/church_search.aspx and searching in your area of the country. Check it out.

~Jim

 

[NewSong]

Thanks, LMM (formerly NS).

Here’s how to find the Vineyard Statement of Faith in ‘pdf’ format here (5 pages): http://www.vineyardusa.org/upload/Statement%20of%20Faith.pdf

You can find the Vineyard Theological and Philosophical Statements here (36 pages):

http://www.vineyardusa.org/upload/theological%20booklet%20rev%202004.pdf

You will need an Adobe reader to read ‘pdf’ files. If you do not have one, you can get a free Adobe download here: http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html

Any group has its detractors as well as its defenders and that’s why I posted this thread and the similar WOF one. It is time I (for one) start trying to find answers than to simply make charges. And I do have some tough questions for WOF’ers that deserve clear answers to and some may have tough questions for Vineyardites that I (and others) will be happy to attempt to answer.

Maybe we are closer in our beliefs than we suspect. But we will never know until we can discuss them without the heat they sometimes generate.

~Jim

Thank you Jim, I really appreciate your incredible openess to this post.

Danny did provide the links earlier in the thread and so I do have them bookmarked for future reference. I managed to get them a while back but it took a lot of doing.

I look forward to seeing what God wants to do with all of this. I, for one, am most blest by the openess and the discussion and look forward to seeing someone who has both ends of the spectrum discuss it maturely.

Bless you Jim.

M

 

[mysparrow]

I have read the links posted and that is precisely how i believe, although i do not attend a Vineyard church. Learn something new every day !

 

[NacDan]

I have read the links posted and that is precisely how i believe, although i do not attend a Vineyard church. Learn something new every day !

GOOD...cause I was wanting to link the Vineyard Statement of Belief on our web site (can't post the link here via CF rules, but I can put it in my profile...) as OUR statement of belief.

Danny

 

[mysparrow]

GOOD...cause I was wanting to link the Vineyard Statement of Belief on our web site (can't post the link here via CF rules, but I can put it in my profile...) as OUR statement of belief.

Danny

Sounds good to me Danny. Would you like the others to read it first before you post it ? Or do you just want to let them know its there.

 

[NacDan]

Initiative! I keep telling you I got's initiative!!

Danny

 

[9-iron]

That would be great, 9-I. I would really love to meet you. Be sure you let me know ahead of time because Stephanie and I will treat you and yours to lunch.

I hope you have a big wallet, my band of five can cost a bit to feed!!!

 

[mysparrow]

Initiative! I keep telling you I got's initiative!!

Danny

LOL Thats why i "let" you take over !

 

[JimB]

I hope you have a big wallet, my band of five can cost a bit to feed!!!

If you can feed five every day, I will gladly feed you for one.

~Jim

 

[TreeOfLife]

Are you saying you have a problem with listening to both sides of an issue? (If so, that could explain a lot.)

I cannot imagine only listening to one side of a difference. I think that’s called a foregone conclusion or, worse yet, religious prejudice.

~Jim

No. I am straight away accusing you personally of trying to revise history. How's that? John wimber is on record in so many places it would make your religious head spin that he personally was in direct opposition to the Vineyard becoming a denomination. If you deny that fact you are lying boldfaced.

It was very simple until now Jim. And guess what. I couldn't care less who you know or who your "personal" pastor is.

Until the death of John Wimber himself, the Vineyard philosophy has always been to avoid the religiousity of the denominational attitude.

You are absolutely wrong to deny that, and maybe worse.

 

[TreeOfLife]

For clairity's sake. I am a Vineyard Christian.

 

[JimB]

No. I am straight away accusing you personally of trying to revise history. How's that? John wimber is on record in so many places it would make your religious head spin that he personally was in direct opposition to the Vineyard becoming a denomination. If you deny that fact you are lying boldfaced.

It was very simple until now Jim. And guess what. I couldn't care less who you know or who your "personal" pastor is.

Until the death of John Wimber himself, the Vineyard philosophy has always been to avoid the religiousity of the denominational attitude.

You are absolutely wrong to deny that, and maybe worse.

Okay, I bow to your superior knowledge of the Vineyard. You win.

~Jim

 

[TreeOfLife]

Okay, I bow to your superior knowledge of the Vineyard. You win.

~Jim

Winning has not even one thing to do with it. But the facts do.

 

[JimB]

You win, TOL, no matter what website you got your “facts” from.

~Jim

 

[TreeOfLife]

You win, TOL, no matter what website you got your “facts” from.

~Jim

Actually,none of it is from a website. Most of it is from Bill Jackson's book. It's been a while since I read it. It's no secret though that John Wimber put a great deal of effort into avoiding becoming a true denomination. The "association" was his way of doing that, even when faced with opposition to continuing it.

That being said, my opinion is that John Wimber himself sealed the deal towards true denominational structure when he relented and disassociated from the Toronto Airport Vineyard.

(I repent from making the personal type comments. Sorry about that.)

 

[JimB]

Actually,none of it is from a website. Most of it is from Bill Jackson's book. It's been a while since I read it. It's no secret though that John Wimber put a great deal of effort into avoiding becoming a true denomination. The "association" was his way of doing that, even when faced with opposition to continuing it.

That being said, my opinion is that John Wimber himself sealed the deal towards true denominational structure when he relented and disassociated from the Toronto Airport Vineyard.

(I repent from making the personal type comments. Sorry about that.)

No problem, TOL. And thanks for being a gentle-man.

I know Bill (Jax) Jackson, informally, and we communicate by email on a regular basis. The last time we talked he said he was looking for a publisher for an updated version of Quest for the Radical Middle which BTW is almost a decade old now and a lot has happen in the Vineyard since the original book was published.

Today's Vineyard is a new Vineyard, TOL, healthier, wiser, more stable, less quick to follow religious fads and movements, and more committed to theology.

You also need to know that not every Vineyard leader/pioneer agreed with Jackson's assessment of the Vineyard’s history although, personally, I thought it was as objective as it could possibly be. He held the mirror up to the Vineyard and let us see the movement warts (Calvary Chapel, Kansas City, Toronto) and all. Some, who figured into the early history of the movement may have felt they were presented in too candid of a light.

Denominational structures are not always a bad thing. As autonomous as Baptist Churches and Churches of Christ are and as much as they hate being labeled denoms, they are, although it would be hard to call them such by any acceptable definition of the word. Every movement begins with a loathing for denominationalism because they do not want the purity of the movement to become a political machine. Unfortunately, they always do, as they grow larger and find the need for organization to maintain cohesiveness and promote inter-church missionary efforts more necessaary. And, though the Vineyard, because we are only 25 years old, is not at that place yet where the nasty old “spirit” of denominationalism has crept in, I am sure that it will rear its ugly head soon enough. I hope not, John Wimber hoped not, Bert Waggoner hopes not, Bill Jackson hopes not, and every Vineyard pastor hopes not. But ...

We just have to be vigilant.

~Jim.

 

[TreeOfLife]

No problem, TOL. And thanks for being a gentle-man.

I know Bill (Jax) Jackson, informally, and we communicate by email on a regular basis. The last time we talked he said he was looking for a publisher for an updated version of Quest for the Radical Middle which BTW is almost a decade old now and a lot has happen in the Vineyard since the original book was published. (I would be happy to give you his email address – with his permission of course - if you would like to communicate with him personally).

It is a new Vineyard, TOL, healthier, wiser, more stable, less quick to follow religious fads and movements, and more committed to theology.

You also need to know that not every Vineyard leader/pioneer agreed with Jax’s assessment of the Vineyard’s history although, personally, I thought it was as objective as it could possibly be. He held the mirror up to the Vineyard and let us see the movement warts (Calvary Chapel, Kansas City, Toronto) and all. Some, who figured into the early history of the movement may have felt they were presented in too candid of a light.

Denominational structures are not always a bad thing. As autonomous as Baptist Churches and Churches of Christ are and as much as they hate being labeled denoms, they are, although it would be hard to call them such by any acceptable definition of the word. Every movement begins with a loathing for denominationalism because they do not want the purity of the movement to become a political machine. Unfortunately, they always do as they grow larger and find the need for organization to maintain cohesiveness and promote inter-church missionary efforts. And, though the Vineyard, because we are only 25 years old, is not at that place yet where the nasty old “spirit” of denominationalism has crept in, I am sure that it will rear its ugly head soon enough. I hope not, John Wimber hoped not, Bert Waggoner hopes not, and every Vineyard pastor hopes not. But ...

We just have to be vigilant.

~Jim.

I agree. Thank you for speaking more openly on the subject.

As far as the book goes, it was that very candidness in the writing that kept me reading it through to the end, and I was very glad I did. Prior to reading it, and even though I was Vineyard at the time, I still had one eye open for "weirdness" and that held me back from reaping the benefits of fellowshiping.

Be greatly blessed today Jim.

 

[Alpine]

Among conservatives and fundamentalists, the Vineyard Movement is controversial because it teaches doctrines they feel are unorthodox.

I really think the example that these uptight brothers and sisters will always point out will be Toronto.

I went to a local Vineyard congregation for a year and have visited a Vineyard out in California when visiting relatives. My main impression of the churches I've visited is that the Vineyard is laid back.

My father who once attended that Vineyard and now goes to a strict KJV only church doesn't think they go in the Word enough. Which I can understand - but then who gets deeper into the word then hard core baptists who sometimes practically worship the bible?

When I think of the vineyard, I think of three things: Laid back, worship and doin' the stuff.

 

[JimB]

*****
When I think of the vineyard, I think of three things: Laid back, worship and doin' the stuff.

And you have nailed it perfectly, Alpine, although I do hope to see agreater reliance on and commitment to Scripture. Not that we aren't commited, but I do hope to see an even greater commitment in the future. And I do hope we can live down Toronto. IMO, it was our worst blunder (with the Kansas City Prophets running a close second).

~Jim

 

[TreeOfLife]

And you have nailed it perfectly, Alpine, although I do hope to see agreater reliance on and commitment to Scripture. Not that we aren't commited, but I do hope to see an even greater commitment in the future. And I do hope we can live down Toronto. IMO, it was our worst blunder (with the Kansas City Prophets running a close second).

~Jim

Jim,

Would you allow me to propose that the disassociation with the Toronto Airport Vineyard was the blunder? (Trust me, it's not going to be the arguement you are expecting. )