How about asking them?

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ollifranz,

But only the fulfillment of the law that you choose not to follow, leaving you "pure" to criticize others whose actions are based on the the fulfillment of the whole law?

No that is incorrect. Where the NT deals with the issues mentioned in the post has already been demonstrated.

What right do you have to tell us that heterosexual couples can ignore the niddah laws, but gay Christians in a loving, committed, sexual relaionship are sinning even if they choose to obey the "man-lying" law and to not engage in a**l s*x?

Sorry but I am referring to the word of God in the Bible, that you do not believe it as you have described is up to you and not my responsibility.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear OllieFranz,
As we have discussed I do not find your explanation of Leviticus credible, and you have reather missed the point of the fulfillment of the law and the bigger picture.
The creation purpose of God is stated in Genesis 2, and affirmed directly by Jesus NT teaching in Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5, 1 Cor 6 etc. Celibacy is given as the alternative in Matt 19 and 1 Cor 7. There are a number of other NT affiramtions of man and woman , Husband/wife, bride/bridegroom throughout the NT.
There is nothing on same-sex unions except condemnations.
All the gay and lesbian arguments do is first make a proposition for which there is no scriptural support, and then seek to justify it by systematic denial and dispute of a whole host of passages which show the proposition is false in the first place.
This is why the issue represents such levels of disbelief it ends up a different gospel.

 

[catlover]

It would seem as though a lot of you are judging these poor creatures as if they do not have a voice. As if their opinions actually come in to question.

Well here it is - straight from the horse's mouth.

I'm gay.
I'm also a christian.

That means I love God, I am a creationist, I could qualify as a bible bashing, old fashioned, hillbilly (if I lived in America)
But here's the catch - I also love the same sex as me. *SHOCK*
I'm a muff-munching, dirty, filthy lesbo!

I have a girlfriend called Jessica, who lives with me, and we love each other - very much.

Do you have any questions? Queeries (see what I did thar?)? Or maybe you want to throw some 'evidence' at me?

Go ahead, I'm ready.

Ps-Please don't go 'eeeew, lesbienne sex is disKUSTINK!
What y'all do ain't so perty either...

...is it a sin to troll?

...is it a sin to feed a troll?

 

[BigBadWlf]

Thank you for replying. But you are wrong. Let's look at Leviticus 18, and the laws about sexual morality:
[bible]Leviticus 18:1-30[/bible]
Verses 6-18 forbid incest. Verse 19 forbids sex with a wife during her niddah. Verse 20 forbids adultery. Verse 21 fobids child sacrifice to Molech. Verse 22 forbids "man-lying." Verse 23 forbids bestiality.

The niddah laws are smack dab in the middle of the sexual immorality laws, between incest and adultery. After the subject changes to Molech worship, "man-lying" and bestiality are added as an afterthought. But God isn't forgetful, so the order must serve a purpose.

I am not so arrogant as to be able to proclaim that purpose, but many people see these actions not as afterthoughts added to the sexual immorality laws, but as part of the idolotrous worship of Molech.

And look at Chapter 20:
[bible]Leviticus 20:1-27[/bible]
Sacrifice to Molech has been moved to the introductory paragraph. Just as in Romans, the "vile affections" are tied into a general failure to recognize God, and to idolatry, so here. In this chapter, the niddah laws (verse 18) and the "man-lying" (verse 13) and bestiality (verses 15-16)laws are all included in the middle of the incest laws.

Again, I do not claim this is "the" way to understand this fact, but some people claim that the other three laws are folded into the incest laws to show that all four (five if you include adultery) situations are equally sinful.

In any case, there is no basis in the Scripture itself to assume that the niddah laws are "OT ceremonial laws" while at the same time proclaiming that the "man-lying" law is a sexual immoarality law. Leviticus 18 seems to suggest that, if anything, it should be the other way 'round. Leviticus 20 seems to say that they are both equally sexually immoral.

Some peple try to make the claim that you can make the distinction because moral laws are repeated in the NT, but ceremonial laws are not. If that is true, then once again the niddah law is a moral law, not a ceremonial one. Paul references it in 1 Corinthians 7:1-5. He has said repeatedly in his letters that we are free from the Law if we are in Grace, but that does not mean that we should wallow in sin. Specifically in this passage, he says that a wife's body is her husband's and vice versa. One should not cheat one's spouse of the pleasure that body can give them, "except [it be] with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer." A period of fasting and prayer and abstaining from sex is exactly what is called for in the niddah laws.

Great post as always Ollie

 

[*Starlight*]

What burns me up is when they try to force their ideas/agendas on straight people.

Is someone forcing you, or any other straight person, to have a homosexual marriage?

 

[texastig]

Is someone forcing you, or any other straight person, to have a homosexual marriage?

Starlight, it's just not about homosexual marriage. Concerning homosexual marriage, I don't want my tax dollars used for that.
I don't want my kids seeing homosexual things on the TV (in case they mistakenly see a soap opera with men kissing).
It's other things also like the school systems saying that homosexuality is normal to my kids and put books in the school library like "Heather has two mommies".
Then the schools are allowing children who are confused about their sexual identity in bathrooms. Boys in a girls bathroom and vice versa.
Makes no sense to me.

I just got back from Chicago from some software training and one the guys in my class who is a Christian said the school board tried to force the homosexual agenda on his kids. The parents of all the kids stopped it dead in it's tracks.
That reminds of the marriage amendments by the states to stop homosexual marriage. The United States people are overwhelmingly against it.

Don't get me wrong. I know homosexuals have to live, eat and work. I don't mind that at all. I just don't want them forcing that stuff above, on me, my kids, my friends and my nation.
Thanks,
TT

 

[*Starlight*]

Starlight, it's just not about homosexual marriage. Concerning homosexual marriage, I don't want my tax dollars used for that.
I don't want my kids seeing homosexual things on the TV (in case they mistakenly see a soap opera with men kissing).
It's other things also like the school systems saying that homosexuality is normal to my kids and put books in the school library like "Heather has two mommies".
Then the schools are allowing children who are confused about their sexual identity in bathrooms. Boys in a girls bathroom and vice versa.
Makes no sense to me.

I just got back from Chicago from some software training and one the guys in my class who is a Christian said the school board tried to force the homosexual agenda on his kids. The parents of all the kids stopped it dead in it's tracks.
That reminds of the marriage amendments by the states to stop homosexual marriage. The United States people are overwhelmingly against it.

Don't get me wrong. I know homosexuals have to live, eat and work. I don't mind that at all. I just don't want them forcing that stuff above, on me, my kids, my friends and my nation.
Thanks,
TT

It seems to me that you have the problem with the fact that homosexuals actually exist, and you'd prefer to get rid of them all... since you see their actual existence as something that's "forced on you your kids, your friends and your nation" And if you don't want your tax money to be spent on homosexuals getting married... do you realize how evil that sounds? How would you feel if someone was too greedy to let YOU get married? And if they said that they don't want your existence to be "forced on them, their kids, their friends and their nation" so that they would use the law to force to you hide yourself? It goes both ways. The fact is that homosexuality is just as normal as natural as heterosexuality... it's simply less common.

 

[catlover]

Starlight, it's just not about homosexual marriage. Concerning homosexual marriage, I don't want my tax dollars used for that.
I don't want my kids seeing homosexual things on the TV (in case they mistakenly see a soap opera with men kissing).
It's other things also like the school systems saying that homosexuality is normal to my kids and put books in the school library like "Heather has two mommies".
Then the schools are allowing children who are confused about their sexual identity in bathrooms. Boys in a girls bathroom and vice versa.
Makes no sense to me.

I just got back from Chicago from some software training and one the guys in my class who is a Christian said the school board tried to force the homosexual agenda on his kids. The parents of all the kids stopped it dead in it's tracks.
That reminds of the marriage amendments by the states to stop homosexual marriage. The United States people are overwhelmingly against it.

Don't get me wrong. I know homosexuals have to live, eat and work. I don't mind that at all. I just don't want them forcing that stuff above, on me, my kids, my friends and my nation.
Thanks,
TT

I don't want my tax dollars going on an unjust war or those views being forced on my children, but both things are happening...get over it..I did.

 

[tulc]

I just got back from Chicago from some software training and one the guys in my class who is a Christian said the school board tried to force the homosexual agenda on his kids. The parents of all the kids stopped it dead in it's tracks.

...what's the homosexual agenda like? I live in Chicago how come I never heard about it?

That reminds of the marriage amendments by the states to stop homosexual marriage. The United States people are overwhelmingly against it.

Uhmm I'm sorry? They are against banning gay marriage or against gay marriage? Sorry your sentence was a little unclear.

Don't get me wrong. I know homosexuals have to live, eat and work. I don't mind that at all. I just don't want them forcing that stuff above, on me, my kids, my friends and my nation.

So you don't mind them being here, you just don't want them to be American citizens?
tulc(that just seems...wrong to me)

 

[BigBadWlf]

Starlight, it's just not about homosexual marriage. Concerning homosexual marriage, I don't want my tax dollars used for that.

Since when do taxpayers pay money to married couples just for getting married?

I don't want my kids seeing homosexual things on the TV (in case they mistakenly see a soap opera with men kissing).

I don’t want to see televangelist lying about minorities like gays and lesbians

It's other things also like the school systems saying that homosexuality is normal to my kids and put books in the school library like "Heather has two mommies".

It is normal.

And millions of children have gay and lesbian parents. Why should they have to pretend that their families are somehow not real just because you have chosen to be prejudiced.

And what are you afraid of? That you children learn that hatred directed at a minority is wrong?

Then the schools are allowing children who are confused about their sexual identity in bathrooms. Boys in a girls bathroom and vice versa.
Makes no sense to me.

Gee…people in my house all have to use the same bathroom.

Does your home have separate men’s and a woman’s restrooms?

I just got back from Chicago from some software training and one the guys in my class who is a Christian said the school board tried to force the homosexual agenda on his kids. The parents of all the kids stopped it dead in it's tracks.

What agenda?

Did your friends school also fight to make sure only white children attend their school….can’t have anyone pushing the black agenda on schools now can we?

That reminds of the marriage amendments by the states to stop homosexual marriage. The United States people are overwhelmingly against it.

It reminds me of how Christians fought against the ending of the ban on interracial marriage a generation ago.

Don't get me wrong. I know homosexuals have to live, eat and work. I don't mind that at all.

how big of you

I just don't want them forcing that stuff above, on me, my kids, my friends and my nation.
Thanks,
TT

Why should people tolerate you pushing your hate and prejudice on their children, on them and on thier nation ?

 

[KCKID]

Starlight, it's just not about homosexual marriage. Concerning homosexual marriage, I don't want my tax dollars used for that.
I don't want my kids seeing homosexual things on the TV (in case they mistakenly see a soap opera with men kissing).
It's other things also like the school systems saying that homosexuality is normal to my kids and put books in the school library like "Heather has two mommies".
Then the schools are allowing children who are confused about their sexual identity in bathrooms. Boys in a girls bathroom and vice versa.
Makes no sense to me.

I just got back from Chicago from some software training and one the guys in my class who is a Christian said the school board tried to force the homosexual agenda on his kids. The parents of all the kids stopped it dead in it's tracks.
That reminds of the marriage amendments by the states to stop homosexual marriage. The United States people are overwhelmingly against it.

Don't get me wrong. I know homosexuals have to live, eat and work. I don't mind that at all. I just don't want them forcing that stuff above, on me, my kids, my friends and my nation.
Thanks,
TT

It's too bad that you had a bad experience as a kid, texastig, but that gives you no legit reason for speaking about 'gay' people the way that you do. You sound like a fanatic and a misguided fanatic at that. Based on a previous and rather 'unusual' post of yours I've asked you several times to describe what YOU perceive a homosexual to be. It seems as though you don't really know. So far, you've ignored my question.

I was a ward of the state and placed in an orphanage between the age of 5-12. I was subject to physical, emotional, and ...well, some degree of 'abuse' (I hate that word ...it is bandied around so much) that a kid should not have to go through. Times were different back then, however, and I guess that many of us 'abusees' just rolled with the punches. I do not allow my past experiences to eat away at me and I have mentally forgiven those who made life so difficult for me as a young boy. Maybe you should do the same, texastig, and stop taking it out on thousands of individuals that you don't even know.

 

[David Brider]

Starlight, it's just not about homosexual marriage. Concerning homosexual marriage, I don't want my tax dollars used for that.

Do things work radically differently in the US to the UK? Because I can't understand how "your tax dollars" would be used for homosexual couples to get married.

David.

 

[tulc]

Do things work radically differently in the US to the UK? Because I can't understand how "your tax dollars" would be used for homosexual couples to get married.

Well...there's the tax breaks people automatically get when they get married. In order for gay couples to get them they have to hire a lawyer and spend a lot of money for something that hetro. couples get just by signing a piece of paper. Maybe he thinks that's unfair?
tulc(...or not)

 

[AetheriusLamia]

buchanan (OP), if you're only 15, I think you're a bit too young to a) be living with a lover and b) really know your sexuality.

after all, sex with someone your age is illegal for a reason ...

 

[David Brider]

buchanan (OP), if you're only 15, I think you're a bit too young to a) be living with a lover and b) really know your sexuality.

after all, sex with someone your age is illegal for a reason ...

Well, Buchanan has qualified a.) by pointing out that her girlfriend lives with Buchanan and her parents, so it's not as if they've set up a home together.

Is 15 really too young to know one's sexuality? Nobody bats an eyelid if a 15 year old girl has a boyfriend, so why should it be any different if a 15 year old girl has a girlfriend?

And AFAIA, Buchanan never said she's having sex with her girlfriend.

David.

 

[HaloHope]

Well, Buchanan has qualified a.) by pointing out that her girlfriend lives with Buchanan and her parents, so it's not as if they've set up a home together.

Is 15 really too young to know one's sexuality? Nobody bats an eyelid if a 15 year old girl has a boyfriend, so why should it be any different if a 15 year old girl has a girlfriend?

And AFAIA, Buchanan never said she's having sex with her girlfriend.

David.

I think most people know their sexuality by age 15 perhaps slightly earliar. (I didnt but most people do im sure)

Also worth pointing out that the age of consent in the UK is 16 so its not perhaps that shocking for a 15 year old to have a boyfreind or girlfreind as it is in some parts of the US.