House votes in favor of illegal immigrant voting

The Barbarian · Mar 9, 2019

SoldierOfTheKing said:
Maybe not, but they did form MS-13, the most violent gang in the Western Hemisphere.

Do you know where that gang was formed?

FireDragon76 · Mar 9, 2019

SoldierOfTheKing said:
Maybe not, but they did form MS-13, the most violent gang in the Western Hemisphere.

MS-13 started in the US.

EpiscipalMe · Mar 9, 2019

The Barbarian said:
Do you know where that gang was formed?

Not to mention the US government policies that led to the formation of MS-13.

SoldierOfTheKing · Mar 9, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
MS-13 started in the US.

Founded by El Salvadoran immigrants.

FireDragon76 · Mar 9, 2019

SoldierOfTheKing said:
Founded by El Salvadoran immigrants.

Are you implying that Salvadorans are biologically determined to be criminals? Or could it be that those fleeing a brutal civil war that was partly funded by the United States (who were on the side of some very nasty people, BTW) might be more prone to join gangs.

SoldierOfTheKing · Mar 9, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
Are you implying that Salvadorans are biologically determined to be criminals? Or could it be that those fleeing a brutal civil war that was partly funded by the United States (who were on the side of some very nasty people, BTW) might be more prone to join gangs.

I’m not implying anything, I’m simply stating the facts, and I feel no need to make excuses for vicious criminals such as MS-13. Whatever the reason for the criminality, they’re hardly the type of people we want in the country. They tend to import the problems that they are supposedly fleeing.

EpiscipalMe · Mar 9, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
Are you implying that Salvadorans are biologically determined to be criminals? Or could it be that those fleeing a brutal civil war that was partly funded by the United States (who were on the side of some very nasty people, BTW) might be more prone to join gangs.

Don’t forget that the US denied them asylum:
“Reagan-era domestic policies denied them asylum, so most ended up living clandestinely, in crowded conditions and with few job opportunities.“

And then sent then exported the gang back to El Salvador:
“After the end of the Salvadoran civil war in 1992, U.S. authorities aggressively targeted noncitizen gang members for repatriation. That meant a flood of socially destabilized young people with criminal experience crowded into Central American communities.“

What Is MS-13, Anyway? | JSTOR Daily

FireDragon76 · Mar 9, 2019

In many ways the crisis in El Salvador is blowback from short-sighted cold war policies that treated the Salvadoran people as pawns in the cold war.

ilovejcsog · Mar 10, 2019

The dems are bound and determined to ruin the country. Why would anyone that has interred the country illegally which is breaking the law have any rights here?

Justified112 · Mar 10, 2019

The Barbarian said:
This is a really, really awkward time for republicans to be talking about sending political figures to prison...

Not awkward at all when you put them in their proper context. For example, Manafort and Cohen are not going to jail for anything politically related, but for misdeeds that occurred years before Trump ran for president. Flynn has been all but completely vindicated and it turns out that he didn't lie, after all. Papadopoulos was small potatoes and got a very small sentence of 14 days for lying to the FBI. Va der Zwaan was sentenced to 30 days for lying to the Mueller team over something that happened in 2012. So to pretend that these examples are awkward for Republicans is to grossly overstate their importance.

The Left has been on tear trying to indict anyone who was ever in any way connected to Trump and that is partly because they cannot find anything on Trump that is impeachable.

Markie Boy · Mar 10, 2019

The Dem's showed they are all on board to allow late term abortion. Let's face it - after that they proved they don't believe in right and wrong, they just believe in what they want.

Right to Life and Sanctity of Marriage - if you don't get those two right you can't get anything else right. That's they base the Dem's are using as their measuring stick, so they measure everything else wrong.

FireDragon76 · Mar 10, 2019

Markie Boy said:
The Dem's showed they are all on board to allow late term abortion. Let's face it - after that they proved they don't believe in right and wrong, they just believe in what they want.

Right to Life and Sanctity of Marriage - if you don't get those two right you can't get anything else right. That's they base the Dem's are using as their measuring stick, so they measure everything else wrong.

That's political spin and the truth is more complicated than that. And I don't think demonization of millions of Democrats is very fair minded. Whatever happened to merely disagreeing with people?

Yarddog · Mar 10, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
Why would an illegal alien vote, knowing that brings potential scrutiny from authorities? I think the illegal alien stands more to lose by voting, so I don't think this is a serious hazard.

It's illegal for them to vote but there has been places that have looked into allowing them to vote on local issues in sanctuary cities.

Yarddog · Mar 10, 2019

PloverWing said:
It looks like it may just be that a resolution to add wording against illegal immigrants voting was defeated. According to the NY Times: "Democrats also successfully put down an attempt by Republicans to divide the caucus and tar the legislation with a resolution expressing the sense that 'allowing illegal immigrants the right to vote devalues the franchise and diminishes the voting power of United States citizens.' " (House Passes Democrats’ Centerpiece Anti-Corruption and Voting Rights Bill)

Did you see any wording in the bill that specifically gave non-citizens the right to vote?

Nothing in the bill gives anyone other than US Citizens the right to vote.

EpiscipalMe · Mar 10, 2019

Basically, the Republicans tried to add a purely symbolic amendment they knew wouldn’t pass to a bill they weren’t going to vote for anyway.

The Barbarian · Mar 10, 2019

Justified112 said:
Not awkward at all when you put them in their proper context.

The context is that all these criminals are part of the Trump organization. Either Trump knew this and is a criminal himself, or he's got the worst judgement of any president in history.

Or both.

For example, Manafort and Cohen are not going to jail for anything politically related,

Manafort was indicted for not registering as an agent for a foreign power. Can't get more political than that.

Cohen is going prison for lying about payoffs he made women so they wouldn't talk about their adultery with Trump, so that it wouldn't hurt him in the election. Among other things.

but for misdeeds that occurred years before Trump ran for president.

During the campaign, actually. You've been badly indoctrinated, it seems.

Flynn has been all but completely vindicated and it turns out that he didn't lie, after all.

Wrong again. When he was Trump's national security advisor, he lied to the FBI about his contacts with Russian agents. And he admitted it. The judge actually mused about whether or not it was treasonous.

Papadopoulos was small potatoes and got a very small sentence of 14 days for lying to the FBI.

But his drunken admission to a foreign diplomat that the Trump organization had connections to agents that had hacked political emails, was the event that touched off the Mueller probe.

Va der Zwaan was sentenced to 30 days for lying to the Mueller team over something that happened in 2012.

Just another crooked Trump associate. He seems to surround himself with criminals.

So to pretend that these examples are awkward for Republicans is to grossly overstate their importance.

I know you want to believe that, but these criminals are examples of the way Trump staffs his organization. Even more awkward is the comparison with the Obama administration which had...(Barbarian checks)... no appointees indicted.

As I said, awkward. It's why poll after poll shows Americans consider Trump to be dishonest. He's either crooked, or very, very dumb. Or both.

The republicans have been on a tear trying to indict anyone who was ever in any way connected to Obama and they failed miserably. The democrats are just getting started on Trump, and there's a sizable perp list already.

The Barbarian · Mar 10, 2019

SoldierOfTheKing said:
I’m not implying anything, I’m simply stating the facts, and I feel no need to make excuses for vicious criminals such as MS-13. Whatever the reason for the criminality, they’re hardly the type of people we want in the country. They tend to import the problems that they are supposedly fleeing.

Neither are all the American criminals. The important part is that illegal aliens are much less likely to commit crimes than are native-born Americans.

This is why Obama's focus on removing people like MS-13, and spending fewer resources on other illegal aliens was so successful. Violent crime dropped markedly in that time.

The thing is, it's easier to pick off law-abiding aliens, than it is to find the criminals. But Trump is trying to get his numbers up and so we see violent crime edging up again.

lsume · Mar 10, 2019

The Barbarian said:
He actually wrote his book in praise of democracy in America. He was not sure it could last.

As Franklin said, "if you can keep it."

I’ve been quoting him for a good 30 years. “Democracy in America” was outspoken in the reasons our republic would fail. Please read the top 20 quotes from the book.

The Barbarian · Mar 10, 2019

"Three circumstances seem to me, to contribute more than all others to the maintenance of the democratic republic in the United States.

The first is that federal form of government which the Americans have adopted and which enables the Union to combine the power of a great republic, with the security of a small one.

The second consists in those township institutions which limit the despotism of the majority and at the same time impart to the people a taste for freedom and the art of being free.

The third is to be found in the constitution of the judicial power. I have shown how the courts of justice serve to repress the excesses of democracy, and how the check and directthe impulses of the majority without stopping its activity. "
Chapter 15, Principle Causes which Tend to Maintain the Democratic Republic of the United States

Noting the rise of the industrial sector in the American economy, Tocqueville, some scholars have argued, also correctly predicted that an industrial aristocracy would rise from the ownership of labor. He warned that '... friends of democracy must keep an anxious eye peeled in this direction at all times', observing that the route of industry was the gate by which a newfound wealthy class might potentially dominate, although he himself believed that an industrial aristocracy would differ from the formal aristocracy of the past.
Democracy in America - Wikipedia

Notice that de Toqueville correctly identified the greatest danger to democracy in America, but also correctly identified constitutional law, with the "township institutions" of local democracy as the best guard against the growth of an "industrial aristocracy."

That threat appears periodically, and is growing now. But each time, it's tamped down because it's very difficult to remove the institutions and values of democracy in our federal government.

FreeinChrist · Mar 10, 2019

redleghunter said:
House votes in favor of illegal immigrant voting
By Stephen Dinan - The Washington Times - Friday, March 8, 2019
House Democrats voted Friday to defend localities that allow illegal immigrants to vote in their elections, turning back a GOP attempt to discourage the practice.

The vote marks a stunning reversal from just six months ago, when the chamber — then under GOP control — voted to decry illegal immigrant voting.

“We are prepared to open up the political process and let all of the people come in,” Rep. John Lewis, a Georgia Democrat and hero of the civil rights movement, told colleagues as he led opposition to the GOP measure.

House votes in favor of illegal immigrant voting - Washington Times

Here is the bill itself:
Text - H.R.1 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): For the People Act of 2019

It would make election day a national holiday and also strengthen voting rights, and works to end partisan redistricting. The part brought up in the OP is where it defends local governments who have decided to allow voting by non-citizens. It is doing that only for those local governments, not county, state or federal elections. I don't approve of that part. The rest of the bill is good.

Here is a comment by Rep. Steny Hoyer:
Opinion | Rep. Steny Hoyer: Americans have lost faith in democracy. Here's how Democrats can restore it.

Next, our legislation seeks to reduce the corrupting influence of dark money in our elections by requiring the disclosure of all Super PAC donors. After the Supreme Court’s disastrous Citizens United v. FEC ruling in 2010, vast sums of undisclosed money flooded our politics, crowding out the voices of individual voters and communities. Democrats are determined to put an end to this practice, as well as place reasonable limits on campaign contributions and ensure complete transparency.

Additionally, our legislation imposes new, higher standards of ethics for those running for the highest offices in our land. Under H.R. 1, presidents and vice presidents would be required to disclose their tax returns for the past 10 years.

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House votes in favor of illegal immigrant voting

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